Spreading hybrids?

[kdreymann]

Hi,
some guys over here in germany seem to be proud, that they have hybrids from Hemiloricaria sp. RED and Hemiloricaria lanceolata and they keep on selling these cats! Although it is not quite clear, what the relationship between these to species is - I think one must not do this (spreading constructed animals within the aquaristik scene) no matter what the result is and how it looks.
Any comments?
Klaus

[Mike_Noren]

Any comments?

Serious hobbyists who want purebreed wont buy their mongrel fish, although I suppose the "parrot cichlid" and "flowerhorn" crowd might. Personally I dislike mongrels because they dilute the purebreeds, making it harder to find and identify pure species, other than that it doesn't really matter much, I certainly wouldn't lose sleep over someone flogging mongrels. Let's not kid ourselves: our fish will never ever go back to nature, so what happens to them in captivity does not matter for the survival of the species in the wild.

(What the...? Cichlid. Hah. Cute.)

[mallemalle]

the thing is that actually a lot of fishes are not more in nature, but some have them in aquariums. thats one reason to not crossbreed. the fish thats still alive in fishtanks are saved more or less by fishfreaks before mankind destroyed the location of these fishes with polution or other things. so the morale is never fuck with nature, because it's going to fuck with you.

malle

[Taratron]

Any comments?

Serious hobbyists who want purebreed wont buy their mongrel fish, although I suppose the "parrot c*****d" and "flowerhorn" crowd might. Personally I dislike mongrels because they dilute the purebreeds, making it harder to find and identify pure species, other than that it doesn't really matter much, I certainly wouldn't lose sleep over someone flogging mongrels. Let's not kid ourselves: our fish will never ever go back to nature, so what happens to them in captivity does not matter for the survival of the species in the wild.

(What the...? c*****d. Hah. Cute.)

Then go ahead and kid yourself. Like it or not, people DO dump their unwanted fish in rivers, canals, streams. Admittedly, in places where the waterways freeze for most of the year, tropical fish will have a problem living there...but adaption is the key to survival. Yes, chances are you won't find a sailfin pleco in Montana in the dead of winter, but stranger things have happened. In Arizona alone, people have pulled out plecos, silver dollars, pacus, and other tankbusters from local fishing ponds.

Admittedly as well, it's a rare find that one hybrid cat will find another of the opposite gender that it could breed with, but again, stranger things have happened.

As well, in ten years, what will happen to wild zebra pleco populations? Mango plecos? The catfish of Africa? What of the places where overfishing and pollution has taken its toll? Already it's nigh impossible to find cherry barbs and red-tailed sharks in the wild. What we have in captivity, in tanks, in breeding farms, are the last of the species. So yes, what happens to fish in captivity, for some species, means the survival of the species as a whole, not just the wild.

*getting off my soapbox now*

[Mike_Noren]

Then go ahead and kid yourself. Like it or not, people DO dump their unwanted fish in rivers, canals, streams.

Yes, but if anything that's an argument FOR mongrels and domestication. Severely modified cultured strains of fish are unlikely to establish themselves in nature. There are no wild populations of shubukin bubble-eyed stargazing fantail lionhead whatever goldfish, but introduced wild-type goldfish are causing ecological disaster all around the world.

As well, in ten years, what will happen to wild zebra pl*co populations? Mango pl*cos? The catfish of Africa?

They'll quite possibly be as extinct as the Bicolor Shark, and like the Bicolor Shark the reason they're gone will be that the environment they called home is destroyed, so there is nowhere to reintroduce them.
Sure, like with the bicolor shark (or the equally extinct, equally never-to-return-to-nature victoria cikklids) there'll be aquarium populations, but they'll respond to the selective pressures of aquarium breeding, and shortly be as viable in their native waters as Bantam chicken would be in the jungle. Even if they CAN remain viable for dozens of captive generations, even if there still exists somewhere to release them, you still wouldn't want to release them, as you don't know if there's a struggling remainder of the original population out there which you might swamp with inbred captive specimens. And can you know that the captive specimens aren't hybrids? Or the right race for the area?
No, going into captivity is a one way street.

What we have in captivity, in tanks, in breeding farms, are the last of the species. So yes, what happens to fish in captivity, for some species, means the survival of the species as a whole, not just the wild.

Yes, what we have in captivity is all that's left of many species, and each year this sad list grows.
Sure, I'm all for maintaining these species in captivity - it's better than having them go completely extinct and be lost to us. But they're never going home.

[pleco_farmer]

Here in Washington, DC, a multi-acre sized pond has been drained after the bulk of the fish have been stunned and collected. (Pretty amazing what they found!) Another pond, a bit smaller, but still sizable, was treated with a fish-killing poison, then drained and refilled. Why? Individuals had dumped Northern Snakeheads into both. Apparently this fish, a voracious predator, prized as a food item, can handle our colder temperatures and will dramatically outcompete natives for the food supply. While natural resources managers were priding themselves, justifably so, on their quick response and a job well done, three more have been fished out of the Potomac river at three widely spaced locations. It is now beyond control.

It is surmised that the fish were either purchased to eat, or as aquarium inhabitants. Well it seems to me that if one buys a fish for dinner, one usually eats the fish, so the latter case is more likely. Its a shrinking world. I can get fish shipped live overnight from thousands of miles away, and once they hit aquarium tanks, there are no controls over where they may end up.

I'll stick to dealing in plecos, since most couldn't survive here in the wild. However, in Florida and other points South.......

[Caol_ila]

Hi!

Are you seriously saying that spreading and producing hybrids will help our nature?

In Germany wild cats are almost extinct, but "domesticated" cats that were released are roaming the country and wreaking havoc on birds nests etc. So much about hybridization being a stress easer for nature...

I dont understand what releasing Channas or Pacus has to do with spreading hybrids for the hobby...

[Mike_Noren]

Hi!

Are you seriously saying that spreading and producing hybrids will help our nature?

I am saying that domesticated breeds have a smaller chance of becoming established when introduced into environments where they dont belong, than do the wild type. If your primary concern is introduction of alien species, then you should be in favor of hybrids and domesticated breeds, as when people release them, as people will, they are less likely to be able to establish themselves.

[Caol_ila]

So you are serious?

Im sorry but can you give me an idea to what degree you want to breed the fishes that they cant enter natural habitats anymore? All tanks will be filled with flower horns, balloon mollies, corys etc, pidgeon blood discus, bloody parrots, longfin Ancistrus....and how much "natural" behaviour do you expect out of these animals?

[Mike_Noren]

So you are serious?

Im sorry but can you give me an idea to what degree you want to breed the fishes that they cant enter natural habitats anymore? All tanks will be filled with flower horns, balloon mollies, corys etc, pidgeon blood discus, bloody parrots, longfin Ancistrus....and how much "natural" behaviour do you expect out of these animals?

Am I serious that domesticated breeds have smaller chance of becoming introduced pests than wild-type does? Yes of course!
Would having "all tanks filled with flower horns, balloon mollies etc" pretty much eliminate the risk of alien fish-species becoming established in areas where they don't belong? Yes, it would.

Have I suggest that therefore we should only keep flower horns, balloon mollies etc? Of course not!

It is a simple statement of fact: domestic breeds tend to have less ability to survive in the wild than the wild-type of the same species does.

Surely you must see that fancy Angelfish, who are so inbred they can't raise their own offspring, can not possibly become an invasive alien species? That Blood Parrots are exceedingly unlikely to become established in Everglades and outcompete native fish?

The jump to that we therefore should only keep those breeds is entirely yours; I have suggested no such thing.

[Barbie]

You might do some searching for the articles on the devastation being caused to native fish in Malaysian waterways before you include flowerhorns in your broad based theory....

Barbie

[Mike_Noren]

You might do some searching for the articles on the devastation being caused to native fish in Malaysian waterways before you include flowerhorns in your broad based theory....Barbie

Last I heard there was considerable uncertainty whether those "flowerhorns" are really Amphilopus trimaculatus, one, perhaps the only, parent species of "flowerhorns": http://www.aquahobby.com/gallery/gtrimac.html
http://www.tangledupincichlids.com/imag ... .jumbo.jpg

But sure, occasionally domestic breeds can become naturalized; regardless of the situation with the SE asian "flowerhorns" there's e.g. goats on Hawaii. Domesticated breeds are just less likely to succeed in the wild than wild type.

Surely this is obvious?

[avianwing]

Hi Mike

Though fancy varieties of aquarium fish have less chance of spreading into the wild ,the same is not true for hybrids ,if they are fertile.
The cultivated platies,swordtails and mollies are all hybrids and have spread across the globe. The Tilapia-hybrids have also been devastatingly successful.

And aquarium fish may one day be introduced in thw wild though not the ones with fanciers.

Avin