How can i lower my PH?

matpreec · Post by **matpreec** » 16 Feb 2004, 16:36

Does anyone know how to lower my PH and GH? (without using peat)

My water is PH7.4, GH 12, KH 15. (Nitrites 0, Nitrates min and Ammonia 0)

i have a CO2 unit, driftwood, a sand substrate and the tank is heavily planted.

I want to get it as low as possible and relatively simply and inexpensively (not asking much am i)?

wng95 · Post by **wng95** » 16 Feb 2004, 19:49

Hi matpreec
If you don't want to use chemicals such as PH minus or whatever, you could try adding various other things. eg. bog wood, oak leaves, clean rain water if it's not polluted or contaminated.
Hope this helps
....William....

Walter · Post by **Walter** » 16 Feb 2004, 20:03

Hi,
reverse osmosis costs about 80 â?¬, if you buy a cheap one...

matpreec · Post by **matpreec** » 16 Feb 2004, 20:09

wng95

Ive tried adding PH minus but this doesnt seem to work(i dont really understand the whole buffer thing). The bogwood hasnt helped either and i live in a loft apartment with no access to a garden to catch rain water.

Walter

The RO option scares me a little

as i dont really know anything about them (im kinda new to this... can you tell?)

magnum4 · Post by **magnum4** » 16 Feb 2004, 23:11

Very basicly RO water is pure water, mixing it with say 30% of you tap water will leave you with a third of you current GH and KH values. Once your KH value is <5 you will find that the pH can be adjusted easily with your carbon dioxide unit and if necessary your buffer.

polkadot · Post by **polkadot** » 17 Feb 2004, 05:39

You can try ketapang leaves.

Post by **Barbie** » 17 Feb 2004, 08:43

Basically like magnum said,you could use 1/2 RO to tap, or even 2/3 RO to tap and you'd be safe if you're starting with a buffering capacity of 12 degrees kH. When you say you have a CO2 system, do you mean one that is hooked to a pH controller? Or just a bubble counter?

Why exactly do you want to get your pH down? Do not EVER add acid products like pH down directly to your tank. You cause pH bounce that is VERY hard on your fish. Most regularly available fish can adjust to the pH from your tap, (within reason), if you do it slowly, and keep it stable. Ammonia is exponentially more toxic in water that is 7.0 pH than it is at 6.0 and 100 times more toxic at 8.0. so as long as you keep that in mind, and don't overstock the tank, you can usually keep fish quite healthy in waters that don't exactly match their collection pH, again, within reason.

Barbie

Walter · Post by **Walter** » 17 Feb 2004, 10:02

Hi,

Barbie wrote: Ammonia is exponentially more toxic in water that is 7.0 pH than it is at 6.0 and 100 times more toxic at 8.0.

sorry, but thatÂ´s not correct.
I think, you mix up the concentration of the Hydronium ( [H3O+] or better [H+]) and concentration of Ammonium/ak ( [NH4+] and [NH3]).
The concentration of Hydronium raises exponentionally, but not the virulency of ammonium/ak.
The higher the range of pH the more toxic amoiak compared to ammonium (thatÂ´s only slender toxic) is in the water.
At pH 8 the concentration of ammonium and ammoniak is about equal.
0,02 mg/l ammoniak is already dangerous, 0,2 mg/l is lethal for most fishes.
Many tables in the net show the proportion of ammonium/ammoniak at the different ph ranges of water.
There are also formulas to calculate it, but different to "write" in a forum:

NH3 = 0,94412 x NH4 / (1 + 10 ^ ((0,0925 + (2728,795 / (t + 273,15 ))) - pH))

t = temperature in Â°C

Walter · Post by **Walter** » 17 Feb 2004, 10:11

Hi,

matpreec wrote:wng95

Ive tried adding PH minus but this doesnt seem to work(i dont really understand the whole buffer thing). The bogwood hasnt helped either and i live in a loft apartment with no access to a garden to catch rain water.

Walter

The RO option scares me a little as i dont really know anything about them (im kinda new to this... can you tell?)

thereÂ´s a direct relation between the water parameters KH, pH and [CO2].
There are many easy to handle calculators in net, you give in two of the parameters and get the third.
For example:

http://www.deters-ing.de/Berechnungen/Berechnungen.htm

Do not use CO2 only to reduce the range of pH, itÂ´s no sense at medium and high ph ranges (results can be even fish toxic concentrations of CO2).
Lower the KH and watch your pH reduing automatically. If itÂ´s not enough, then add some peat other leafs of oak or "seemandelbaum" or the fruits of Alnus sp. (sorry, donÂ´t know the English names).

Anorganic acids are also not senseful in a normal tank, pH Minus and even sold "oak bark extract" consist the most part of anorganic acids. And, as Barbie told, never put it directly in your tank.

ewan · Post by **ewan** » 17 Feb 2004, 11:11

Why do you not want to use Peat, its proberly as good a thing as you could use. Eheim do a Peat substance that you can fit in a filter.

Post by **Barbie** » 17 Feb 2004, 18:18

But Walter, isn't it true that ammonium is not toxic to fish, and ammonia from waste is only converted to ammonium at pH under 6.0? Amquel converts ammonia to ammonium, protecting your fish that way, without actually removing the ammonia from your aquarium. Ammonia IS much more toxic at higher pH, whether we agree about the level of toxicity or not, no?

Barbie

Walter · Post by **Walter** » 17 Feb 2004, 20:55

Hi Barbie,
first of all: I donÂ´t know all the chemical terms in English, so sorry, if I express few comprehensible.
I do not know what "amquel" is???

No, itÂ´s not true, that ammonium is not toxic. Of course it depends on the concentration of ammonium in the water, high concentrations are toxic, too, so as really high concentrations of nitrate are toxic for fish, or too high concentrations of CO2.
But in concentrations, normally be found in aquarium water, ammonium is not toxic.

ammonia from waste is only converted to ammonium at pH under 6.0?

No, thatÂ´s definitly wrong. Ammonium and ammoniak occour in a certain balance in water, and this balance is depending on the range of pH.
The lower the range of pH drops, the more NH3 is convertet to NH4+ (easy to follow, the "more acid" the water is, the more free H+ ions are free and can converte NH3 to NH 4+) and vice versa.
At a range of pH a little over 8, the concentrations NH4+ and NH3 are about equal.

Walter · Post by **Walter** » 17 Feb 2004, 21:12

Hi

ewan wrote:Why do you not want to use Peat, its proberly as good a thing as you could use. Eheim do a Peat substance that you can fit in a filter.

but at KH of 15 he would need large amounts of peat...

magnum4 · Post by **magnum4** » 18 Feb 2004, 00:00

Dont quite no how the ammonia conversation got started here

.

But it could be very confusing for people as you are both right. And it takes a lot of explaining so i'll just divert people to this web site:

http://ce.ecn.purdue.edu/~piwc/w3-resea ... a/nh3.html

This one should be in the Favorites list as it comes in handy when your starting your tanks.

matpreec · Post by **matpreec** » 19 Feb 2004, 10:19

Thanks for the interest guys...

I know what RO does but the bits im confused on what is a good UK price, a good brand, how they fit and how much they cost to run. If anyone knows of a good web site?

Barbie - My C02 system is just hooked up to a bubble counter. And i would like to lower my PH for fish breeding.

Thanks for the help guys but im slightly more confused now then when we started

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 25 Feb 2004, 13:49

i've been thinking about an RO recently, but i've been told that the thing has to stay running ALL the time, ie drip drip drip down the plug all day every day. the water bill must end up being astronomical !! not to mention the environmental costs!

is this true? or can you get models that you can shut off?

Post by **Barbie** » 25 Feb 2004, 17:51

If you get a model that you plumb in directly, it doesn't have to run constantly, just as long as the membrane stays wet, from my understanding. You just have to keep in mind that any float valve or shut off switch has to shut off the incoming water to the RO unit, not just put backpressure on the outflow for the RO water, as that is also bad for the membrane.

Barbie

Walter · Post by **Walter** » 27 Feb 2004, 12:34

Hi,
no, it is not necessary to run the RO all the time.
I use mine only before changing water, a day or whatever, depending how much RO water I need, before.
Sometimes itÂ´s not in use for more than a month, without any problems up to now. The outcoming water always had and still has 20ÂµS/cm.
Sometimes you have to rinse the UO for some minutes with tap water, thatÂ´s all.

BenZz · Post by **BenZz** » 27 Feb 2004, 15:50

An Ro unit is a splendid Thing, You can make the water beginning with Ro water, It's a little expensive in usage (3/4 of the water you throw away) (ore use in garden or use for cleaning. etc.)but is sure worth it's money.

What i also use to lower ph is sea-amandel-tree leaves ( in german that would be-seeamandelbaumblatter)
they lower the ph a bit and are a nice addition to an aquarium.

also eichenextract ( Oak-extraction) lowers the ph and dissolves calcium out of water.

If you need lot's of water buy an Ro unit., in combination of the lowering ph-goods it works just fine with me.

Today it is snowing here in Belgium. For aquiering soft water I take a bucket and get snow.
I let it melt in a waterbutt. add aquasafe and let it aerate for a day.

greetz.

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 27 Feb 2004, 18:00

in that case i might have to buy one then. i've presently got a softener-king unit which gets GH down ok, but does nothing to KH. will peat reduce KH sufficiently to allow a change in pH ? will it stress the fish out if the pH and KH are high while the GH is low? it seems rather un-natural to me.

Walter · Post by **Walter** » 27 Feb 2004, 21:39

Hi,

BenZz wrote:It's a little expensive in usage (3/4 of the water you throw away)

.

what kind of RO do you own?
I think, I throw away less than a quarter of the water and my RO was a cheap one...

BenZz · Post by **BenZz** » 28 Feb 2004, 17:55

i think it's aquatic nature. don't know anymore. They always told me to put the current 1/4 osmose
3/4 to the drain. It does 90 liters a day. It was not very expensive.

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 29 Feb 2004, 13:40

from what i can gather the amount of wasted water depends on how hard your water is in the first place. ie, the more dissolved minerals, the greater the wastage.