PlanetCatfish.com

Posted: **18 May 2020, 11:01**

Hi, I posted a few days ago about possible finrot on my columbian sharks whitish grey on their dorsal fins that had just arrived but it appeared it might be normal however today I have noticed two new things both fish have developed dark patches on the skin near their gills and have bloated stomachs one being much worse than the other. The only thing that’s happened before this is that 2 days ago there was some clouding in the aquarium (keeps coming and going) so I added a additional filter and I decreased the temperature from 26c to 24c as someone said they would do better in that temperature. There’s very little to no ammonia and no nitrites the ph is between 7.6-7.8 Here’s some pictures. Is this an illness regarding their stomach? They are catfish pellets 6 hours ago and canned sterilised bloodworms 12 hours ago. Also their skin looks like it has black patches on it in certain angles.

Posted: **18 May 2020, 11:24**

Hi

Despite that blue gravel I can't spot anything that would make me thoughtful. They look good to me. If you feed them pellets, make sure to water them first, so they can swell before they are eaten. Otherwise you might risk bloat and blockage.

Posted: **18 May 2020, 12:37**

Thanks, but if you look at a comparison from Friday the first image to today there’s a big difference in their stomach size, also what’s wrong with the gravel

Posted: **18 May 2020, 13:51**

daviem wrote: ↑18 May 2020, 11:01 There’s very little to no ammonia ...

Does this mean that this aquarium was recently setup? If so please keep up large daily water changes (be sure to use a dechlorinator), to keep the ammonia as close to zero as possible until the filter has matured, this can take several weeks or more. Be sure to keep testing for ammonia and nitrite regularly, keep in mind that as ammonia starts to fall, levels of nitrite will increase, until there are enough suitable bacteria to convert it to nitrate. You'll need to keep up the daily water changes until there is no ammonia or nitrite, then you can fall back to weekly water changes.

Regarding the stomach, to me it looks like it's had a good feed. Some fish keep eating until it looks like they'll burst, give it a couple days and it should reduce in size.

Good luck with them.

Posted: **18 May 2020, 18:24**

There is nothing wrong with their tummies. I'd feed them next time only after the tummies go flat and do it every time like that.

Black spot by the gill is natural.

Cloudiness and measurable ammonia are not right. It means you haven't cycled the tank before getting the fish and now the tank is cycling with the fish in it.

Do you understand the nitrogen cycle in a fish tank?

Please, do not use dip sticks for measuring ammonia and nitrite as they are notoriously crude but get the liquid test kit instead. Both chemicals MUST be firmly at 0 ppm at all times in an adequately run tank as measured by a quality liquid test kit such as the API, Salifer, etc.

Posted: **18 May 2020, 20:13**

Thanks for the replies

im happy that it is probably just over eating/full stomachs, as for the cycling it’s true the tank wasn’t cycled but the original aquarium sprung a leak so I had to start again by that point the fish had already been purchased and getting the aquarium replaced and everything set everything back, and the place I purchased them from wanted me to take them, I am using a API test kit as on YouTube it was advised to use the freshwater one as the salinity is low and I’m following the sachem cycling routine which means I added the daily dose of sachem stability for 8 days and to make sure there’s no free ammonia or nitrites until the aquariums fully cycled I add prime every two day’s which binds up ammonia and nitrites until the cycle is complete. I also used reverse osmosis water. Thanks for the help I really appreciate it

Posted: **18 May 2020, 21:26**

Sounds like you got a handle on it.

Until the tank cycles, I'd feed extremely lightly. You may be playing with fire by letting them pig out like that.

I don't know exactly but suspect that Prime in the water at the high concentrations it is recommended to fight ammonia and nitrite does not allow for accurate water testing for these chemicals. I could be wrong.

Faced with the same, I use Ammo-Lock liquid for ammonia and table salt for nitrite, both of which allow me to still measure the toxins with the same accuracy as before more or less.

Posted: **19 May 2020, 03:15**

No I think you’re right the problem is ones belly has gone completely flat the other ones is exactly the same, you’re also right about prime so what I did was buy a sachem ammonia tester that takes into consideration both binded and unbinded ammonia apparently the api test kit still shows the real values but I’m not sure, I want to get a Uv sanitiser but they don’t have a suitable one in stock for my aquarium, thanks for the tips, I will try them.

thanks for the help one of the most helpful forums.

Posted: **19 May 2020, 07:38**

I also used reverse osmosis water.

As these fish come from brakish water, RO water will not only not be helpfull, it will be harmfull to the fishes.

Your fish feel a certain pressure from the tank water to enter their body - a feeling which should be abandoned. In hard water this pressure is less than in soft water, hence my advice to do without the RO water.

Your tap water will be better

Posted: **19 May 2020, 09:06**

Bas Pels wrote: ↑19 May 2020, 07:38
I also used reverse osmosis water.
As these fish come from brakish water, RO water will not only not be helpfull, it will be harmfull to the fishes.

Your fish feel a certain pressure from the tank water to enter their body - a feeling which should be abandoned. In hard water this pressure is less than in soft water, hence my advice to do without the RO water.

Your tap water will be better

Thanks for the reply but I’m a little bit confused, our tap water is disgusting full of bacteria when I use a distiller for myself I see this also if you let it sit after a few hours it smells really bad in the past fish have gotten ill and died from it, are you talking about the PH in the water? If not what is removed in the reverse osmosis that’s bad for them. After the reverse osmosis the PH is still 7.6-7.8 I appreciate your input.

Posted: **19 May 2020, 10:22**

Hi all,
@daviem, I suggest that you should listen to the posters on this thread, they are people who really understand fish keeping and your fish, and they are trying to help you, they aren't trying to be difficult and they are offering you sound advice.

daviem wrote: ↑19 May 2020, 09:06Thanks for the reply but I’m a little bit confused, our tap water is disgusting full of bacteria when I use a distiller for myself I see this also if you let it sit after a few hours it smells really bad in the past fish have gotten ill and died from it, are you talking about the PH in the water? If not what is removed in the reverse osmosis that’s bad for them. After the reverse osmosis the PH is still 7.6-7.8 I appreciate your input.

Bas Pels wrote: ↑19 May 2020, 07:38
I also used reverse osmosis water.
As these fish come from brakish water, RO water will not only not be helpfull, it will be harmfull to the fishes.

Your fish feel a certain pressure from the tank water to enter their body - a feeling which should be abandoned. In hard water this pressure is less than in soft water, hence my advice to do without the RO water.

Your tap water will be better.

@Bas Pels is right, your tap supply will be naturally hard and much better for the fish. You can get parameters for your tap water from "Thames Water", it definitely isn't isn't full of bacteria and it will be hard because it comes from a limestone area. Hardness and pH are often linked, but they are independent and what your fish need is hard, salty water, pH isn't really that relevant.

cheers Darrel

Posted: **19 May 2020, 14:49**

daviem wrote: ↑19 May 2020, 09:06 ... our tap water is disgusting full of bacteria when I use a distiller for myself I see this also if you let it sit after a few hours it smells really bad in the past fish have gotten ill and died from it...

This is strange and unsettling and hard to comprehend. If your source water is potable and drinkable and is disinfected by chlorine or chloramine or ozone etc. by the authorities, all one needs to do to make such water be fish friendly is to eliminate the chlorine or chloramine, by aging or by a use of conditioner such as Prime.

When the water is just standing and aging, it can develop an unpleasant smell not due to bacterial activity but due to some chemical reactions that are occuring in it. There shouldn't be much of anything living in tap water that contains (and smells of) chlorine.

RO removes all dissolved solids from water, making it extremely soft. They call it "dead water". Distillation accomplishes the same. When we use RO, we then must mix back the right amount of hardness (calcium and magnesium divalent cations; carbonate for buffering the pH), salinity, and other microelements living organisms such as fish need for their bodily health. Toward this purpose the most used and the best material is crushed coral. Things like crushed seashells, calcite, etc. are sometimes used too.

daviem wrote: ↑19 May 2020, 03:15 ... the problem is ones belly has gone completely flat the other ones is exactly the same...

I hadn't caught that before. Sorry. Yes, this would be strange. Perhaps one ate more or found more later? Or, a long shot, one regurgitated (stimulated by the other or independently) and the other ate it up.

Or if your water is really soft, the fish may be developing a bloat or some other digestive issue, you might be right to worry.

daviem wrote: ↑19 May 2020, 03:15 buy a sachem ammonia tester that takes into consideration both binded and unbinded ammonia apparently the api test kit still shows the real values but I’m not sure, I want to get a Uv sanitiser but they don’t have a suitable one in stock for my aquarium, thanks for the tips, I will try them. thanks for the help one of the most helpful forums.

API liquid ammonia test tests for both forms of ammonia, free and bound, so it doesn't matter.

I just vaguely recall that Prime throws off the test results, interferes with the tests. It's a proprietary concoction of chemicals.

UV sanitizer would be an overkill in my humble opinion but many people, especially who own very rare and expensive fish, opt to have one.

Posted: **19 May 2020, 22:17**

Viktor Jarikov wrote: ↑19 May 2020, 14:49UV sanitizer would be an overkill in my humble opinion but many people, especially who own very rare and expensive fish, opt to have one.

I have one, but I've only ever used it to try to control a mycobacterium outbreak. I don't leave it running in any tank normally.

Let's review the problems:
1) The tank is not cycled. You're managing this, but you're managing it, not solving it. (I know you didn't intend for that to happen.)
2) The fish have been moved twice, it sounds like, recently. (Once from the store, and then once when your first tank started leaking.) That's stressful. (Do they have anywhere to hide in the new tank? It can add stress if they feel like they are exposed in the open all the time.)
3) You may have an issue with water hardness. I'm not sure whether you mean that you started with RO water and added a marine salt mixture made to add to RO (in which case you are fine) or whether you just filled the tank up with RO and ran with it, in which case that's bad. (Even people who drink straight RO water can end up with unpleasant side effects, like leaching calcium out of their bones.)
4) You may have a disease issue.

However, if you have a disease issue numbers 1-3 are going to make it worse, and taking care of these will let the fish settle down and their own immune systems get back to normal. I'd be careful about anything that will stress them further.

Posted: **20 May 2020, 02:27**

Update so I researched reverse osmosis and you’re right about the water hardness but because Thames valley water is from a river where sewage water is pumped back into the same river from many towns and in the past they have even poured the sewer into the river as is Uncleaned killing animals and polluting the water I still intend on using the reverse osmosis kit, but I now know the fish need some hardness in the water so thanks, would these products be enough to get the minerals they need back into the water

Sachem replenish, it states it adds hardness back into the water after reverse osmosis

And API GH tester to test before and after.

Next the reverse osmosis kit is for aquariums I was told, so I don’t know if that left any minerals still in I was also told to add the salt mix to reverse osmosis or distilled water only, as for their bellies thanks to the original replies I didn’t feed them and they were right the fishes bellies are fine now, the fish have been moved once from the store to my aquarium as the first new aquarium that was cycled leaked literally after I purchased them. So I told them to keep them they had them ages and wanted me to take them so I had to. There is no stress or issue with the cycling as there’s no free ammonia thanks to prime and stability my ammonia alert confirms this as does API test kit, eventually the tank will cycle until then the ammonia and nitries are being bound and not toxic.

Posted: **20 May 2020, 10:31**

Hi all,

daviem wrote: ↑20 May 2020, 02:27........ into the river as is Uncleaned killing animals and polluting the water I still intend on using the reverse osmosis kit, but I now know the fish need some hardness in the water so thanks, would these products be enough to get the minerals they need back into the water.......

I understand your concerns, but in the UK we are still bound by the EU water framework and it isreally tight on faecal coliform levels, so I honestly wouldn't worry. My guess is that there will be an erosion of this legislation in the aftermath of Brexit, but we have a long way to go before we end with water like the Americans have to put up with.

daviem wrote: ↑20 May 2020, 02:27Seachem replenish, it states it adds hardness back into the water after reverse osmosis.

Because you are going to change a lot of water (certainly until the tank is cycled) I'd definitely use a DIY mix. You can find them for Tanganyikan Cichlids (Seachem sell one of these, but it is going to be an expensive option).

daviem wrote: ↑20 May 2020, 02:27And API GH tester to test before and after.

You would be much better with a TDS (conductivity) meter, a refractometer or a hydrometer.

You will need advice from some-one with practical experience of these fish to tell you the values you are looking for.

cheers Darrel

Posted: **20 May 2020, 15:15**

Don't mean to jam it down your throat, so treat these as my thoughts caused by our exchange, not orders, God forbid...

*****

IDK the situation with tap water in the UK but I cannot fathom it'd be so problematic requiring the RO! It must be potable water that people wash their face and shower with and rinse their mouths and eyes, some perhaps drink it too.

This is extreme and it would seem it is hampering your success with your hobby. Forgive me please but not beating around the bush and in the interest of saving those fish, I'd say your (perhaps too emotional and germaphobic, maybe irrational?) view of your tap water might be the greatest danger to your pets as this appears to be the root cause of the current and most future problems of theirs.

You are also adding an undue burden on yourself and your wallet with first filtering out the hardness and then adding it back. On the plus side, you will learn more, sure, as you have already started.

I'd most strongly recommend listening to Darrel aka dw1305, who is both hand-on, supervisory, and science-level professional sewer water treatment specialist... and may take your accusations personally hahaha... little did you know who you are talking to, haha...

dw1305 wrote: ↑20 May 2020, 10:31 ... My guess is that there will be an erosion of this legislation in the aftermath of Brexit, but we have a long way to go before we end with water like the Americans have to put up with.

That left me perplexed. In as few words as possible, what do you imply? EDIT: thank you, Bas! (see below) I mean do I need to worry about municipal waters in the USA?

dw1305 wrote: ↑20 May 2020, 10:31 ... You will need advice from some-one with practical experience of these fish to tell you the values you are looking for.

These guys are born either in brackish or at the border of f/w-brackish and migrate into brackish and marine as they grow and mature. They have been shown to tolerate f/w when small but not when starting to grow. For the millions sold over the last decade, I have heard of three exceptions of 1'-2' ones grown in f/w but these are sad cases with illnesses and swift deaths.

dw1305 wrote: ↑20 May 2020, 10:31
daviem wrote: ↑20 May 2020, 02:27Seachem replenish, it states it adds hardness back into the water after reverse osmosis.
Because you are going to change a lot of water (certainly until the tank is cycled) I'd definitely use a DIY mix. You can find them for Tanganyikan Cichlids (Seachem sell one of these, but it is going to be an expensive option).
daviem wrote: ↑20 May 2020, 02:27And API GH tester to test before and after.
You would be much better with a TDS (conductivity) meter, a refractometer or a hydrometer.

Why not merely stick a bag of crushed coral in the filter and be done for a long time until it is consumed?

Posted: **20 May 2020, 15:32**

What I think Darrel meant was

Apparently the EU (European Union) has rules for the quality of potable water (new to me), and you may have heard Great Brittain has left the EU - implying the EU rules will not have any meaning for the UK.

Darrel expects the rules for potable water to become less strict, and is of the opinion that in the USA they are far less strict.

I can't say whether his predictions will right or not. Perhaps our Dutch rules for potable water are much more strict then the European ones, so we never hear about these.

But I cannot imagine the UK stopping with producing potable water one can drink, as it used to be in Southern Europe, once. The UK is not a third world country, is it?

Posted: **20 May 2020, 16:29**

Hi all,

Bas Pels wrote: ↑20 May 2020, 15:32What I think Darrel meant was

Apparently the EU (European Union) has rules for the quality of potable water (new to me), and you may have heard Great Britain has left the EU - implying the EU rules will not have any meaning for the UK.

Darrel expects the rules for potable water to become less strict, and is of the opinion that in the USA they are far less strict.

I can't say whether his predictions will right or not. Perhaps our Dutch rules for potable water are much more strict then the European ones, so we never hear about these.

But I cannot imagine the UK stopping with producing potable water one can drink, as it used to be in Southern Europe, once. The UK is not a third world country, is it?

Exactly that. We chlorinate our supply (I don't think the Netherlands does?), but only to less than 0.5 ppm chlorine.

I live a maximum of ~100 km to the west of the OP, and our tap water is extremely high quality, and much better than nearly anything you can get bottled. If you go ~100 km east of the OP, you are in London and the water is of much lesser quality, but still entirely safe to drink.

The EU water regulations are here.

My guess is that there will be a bonfire of most environmental regulations post Brexit and Covid19 in the UK, our right wing politicians are a bit more nuanced than Joao Bolsanaro etc., but they have exactly the same goals, aims and inclinations.

With regard to the water quality in some of the USA I'll leave that to Shane

.........Five minutes later I realize I did not add Prime to the 20 long. Too late, all six fish are dead. Anyone that has attended CatCon knows how deadly the water is here. No fish can survive in untreated DC water for more than a minute or two.

39 buckets later, a minor flood, and a complete tank wipe out and water changes are done for another week....

cheers Darrel

Posted: **20 May 2020, 16:59**

Chlorination is indeed outlawed here. We do heve rules regarding E coli and others, but there is no need for such drastic measures.

What is odd, is that the regulations for potable water in NL are much fiercer than for bottled springwater. So yes, I drink water from the tap, but I like it cool. Refrigitated

Posted: **20 May 2020, 21:31**

daviem wrote: ↑20 May 2020, 02:27 There is no stress or issue with the cycling as there’s no free ammonia thanks to prime and stability my ammonia alert confirms this as does API test kit, eventually the tank will cycle until then the ammonia and nitries are being bound and not toxic.

There's always stress in moving fish. Can't be helped.
I'm sure the ammonia levels aren't toxic, but they also aren't stable, which probably feels weird to the fish. Instead, ammonia and nitrites build up for two days and then are bound. It's probably a bit like the difference between being in a room that's a comfortable temperature and being in a room at an uncomfortable temperature where you step out of the room every once and a while to feel better. It won't actually hurt you, but it will probably annoy you.

You're paying a lot of attention to these fish, which is great, but they may also be acting a bit off as they get used to the new tank/conditions. That may look like a disease when it isn't.

Posted: **21 May 2020, 01:06**

Viktor Jarikov wrote: ↑20 May 2020, 15:15 Don't mean to jam it down your throat, so treat these as my thoughts caused by our exchange, not orders, God forbid...

*****

IDK the situation with tap water in the UK but I cannot fathom it'd be so problematic requiring the RO! It must be potable water that people wash their face and shower with and rinse their mouths and eyes, some perhaps drink it too.

This is extreme and it would seem it is hampering your success with your hobby. Forgive me please but not beating around the bush and in the interest of saving those fish, I'd say your (perhaps too emotional and germaphobic, maybe irrational?) view of your tap water might be the greatest danger to your pets as this appears to be the root cause of the current and most future problems of theirs.

You are also adding an undue burden on yourself and your wallet with first filtering out the hardness and then adding it back. On the plus side, you will learn more, sure, as you have already started.

I'd most strongly recommend listening to Darrel aka dw1305, who is both hand-on, supervisory, and science-level professional sewer water treatment specialist... and may take your accusations personally hahaha... little did you know who you are talking to, haha...

dw1305 wrote: ↑20 May 2020, 10:31 ... My guess is that there will be an erosion of this legislation in the aftermath of Brexit, but we have a long way to go before we end with water like the Americans have to put up with.
That left me perplexed. In as few words as possible, what do you imply? EDIT: thank you, Bas! (see below) I mean do I need to worry about municipal waters in the USA?

dw1305 wrote: ↑20 May 2020, 10:31 ... You will need advice from some-one with practical experience of these fish to tell you the values you are looking for.
These guys are born either in brackish or at the border of f/w-brackish and migrate into brackish and marine as they grow and mature. They have been shown to tolerate f/w when small but not when starting to grow. For the millions sold over the last decade, I have heard of three exceptions of 1'-2' ones grown in f/w but these are sad cases with illnesses and swift deaths.

dw1305 wrote: ↑20 May 2020, 10:31
daviem wrote: ↑20 May 2020, 02:27Seachem replenish, it states it adds hardness back into the water after reverse osmosis.
Because you are going to change a lot of water (certainly until the tank is cycled) I'd definitely use a DIY mix. You can find them for Tanganyikan Cichlids (Seachem sell one of these, but it is going to be an expensive option).
daviem wrote: ↑20 May 2020, 02:27And API GH tester to test before and after.
You would be much better with a TDS (conductivity) meter, a refractometer or a hydrometer.
Why not merely stick a bag of crushed coral in the filter and be done for a long time until it is consumed?

I don’t know but I’m not amused by you saying who you’re talking too, I don’t care who I’m talking to, maybe you should research before passing your comments, I see you quickly got worried about your water.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc. ... e-46653684

Haha

As for the big deal over using reverse osmosis trying to say I’m not right if it’s so abnormal why do so many fish stores use it? Why are aquarium reverse osmosis units made? Huh? Why does the aquarium salt companies suggest using it? YouTube is full of videos of people using it, and plenty of products to re add hardness to water, clearly their is more of a benefit getting exactly the perimeters I want that are ideal for them using clean water without chemicals or the weird residue on top and funnily enough I don’t have algae in a day or a stinking aquarium after a few hours, I rather use clean water than whatever is pumped to try and clean recycled sewer water. So thanks for your comments but god forbid I listen.

Posted: **21 May 2020, 07:36**

Why many fishstores use osmosis water? I cannot say whether this is true, in NL they don't, but fact is, many, most, fish come from soft, acidic water. Softer than the potable water available.

RO with adding minerals is, I think, the best way to produce such soft water.

However, the thing is, not all fish come from this kind of water. The fishes we are talking about now, they come from brackish, perhaps even sea water. That is not soft, that is beyond hard.

During this discussion I realized that Pocilia velefera, I'm going for them today, also need brackish water, and thus are better put in hard water than soft. And the other fish, cichlids from Central America, will not mind, they would also porefer hard water. So I started hardening it, with egg shells.

Those egg shells are cheaper than crushed Coral, and availeble in all agriculture and pet shops.

Posted: **21 May 2020, 14:40**

Hi all,
@daviem you have asked a question, and these very kind, and knowledgeable people, @Lycosid, @Acanthicus, @MarcW, @Bas Pels and @Viktor Jarikov have tried to answer it for you, to the best of their considerable abilities.

If you don't want to listen to them, that is entirely up to you, but it is your loss, not theirs.

cheers Darrel

Posted: **21 May 2020, 15:05**

Thank you Darrel!

Davie, I was trying my clumsy and limited best to help you with offering food for thought. As for the off the cuff joke, I sincerely and profusely apologize if I hurt your feelings by making a bit light of the situation. I found it spectacularly coincidental and ironic, and hence funny, but we all don't share the same sense of humor plus I often fail to see things from the perspective of another. Please, forgive me.

I haven't gotten worried about my water. I have a habit of wanting to learn when I hear new things and Darrel has been my teacher many times before. I am on a well water anyway and run RO on it as our well is light brackish. We make and spend up to 10,000 US gallons of RO water a day 365 days a year for water changes alone for our fishes.

Thank you for the link on the Thames pollution and the 2 million pound fine. That was helpful in seeing your prospective better. A couple dozen of such links would really solidify your case and perhaps make me soften, doubt, or even reverse my opinion. I am flexible and I try to learn from everybody.

Another point is you are new and unknown to us. You haven't introduced yourself and your hobby expertise level is unknown to us. It doesn't help choose the right position and right words when interacting. So again, please, forgive me.

Ideally, your approach of RO then back adding is great in the long run. I just didn't know your level of expertise and experience. For a newbie it might be a terrible approach.

All in all, we are here to learn, help each other, and have fun. We do aim to please but sometimes fail

Posted: **21 May 2020, 15:20**

daviem wrote: ↑21 May 2020, 01:06 As for the big deal over using reverse osmosis trying to say I’m not right if it’s so abnormal why do so many fish stores use it? Why are aquarium reverse osmosis units made? Huh? Why does the aquarium salt companies suggest using it? YouTube is full of videos of people using it, and plenty of products to re add hardness to water, clearly their is more of a benefit getting exactly the perimeters I want that are ideal for them using clean water without chemicals or the weird residue on top and funnily enough I don’t have algae in a day or a stinking aquarium after a few hours, I rather use clean water than whatever is pumped to try and clean recycled sewer water. So thanks for your comments but god forbid I listen.

I use RO, for the record, but I mix it with tap water. I do this because I keep some soft-water fish. In my rainbowfish tank I don't use RO, and I add crushed coral.
I'll also point out that here in the US when you buy RO units they are often for drinking water, despite the fact that this is actually bad for you. So the fact that people use something sometimes isn't helpful.

We're all mostly surprised that you have tap water that is that bad. Water that humans can safely drink is normally fine for fish, but what you're describing sounds like a health hazard as well. If you were posting from some developing country I wouldn't be surprised, but you aren't, so that just sounds like your municipal water board is doing a bad job.

Posted: **21 May 2020, 16:17**

I am not far from you in North Hampshire, near Basingstoke.

Our tap water is very hard, it comes from a limestone aquifer, as a few others have mentioned, I use rain or RO water to mix with a little tap water, usually 25-30% tap and the rest rain or RO, that is because most of the fish I keep come from soft water.

For many years I kept fish in nothing but de-chlorinated tap water, straight from the cold tap into a bucket to mix in some de-chlorinator (Prime at the time), and then into the tank. Even softer water fish were fine with this, if gradually adjusted. My L134 spawned successfully in tap water after I spent a long time messing about with the water parameters to try and make them spawn, it tuns out they seemed to enjoy some consistency!

I'm sure you know, via the website of your local water company you can get a water quality report free of charge. If it's anything like mine, it's several pages ~8 the last time I think, filled with nasty chemicals, pollutants, etc. which at first seems horrific, but is within carefully set out limits, for us to consume huge amounts of, over the course of our lives. I would suggest it is perfectly safe for your fish (once de-chlorinated), especially as they need hard brackish water.

Good luck with the fish, they seem an interesting species, and we'd appreciate updates as they start to grow.

Posted: **21 May 2020, 18:37**

daviem wrote: ↑21 May 2020, 01:06 As for the big deal over using reverse osmosis trying to say I’m not right if it’s so abnormal why do so many fish stores use it? Why are aquarium reverse osmosis units made? Huh? Why does the aquarium salt companies suggest using it? ...

What the guys said above. Plus we live in the age of rampant consumerism. If they can sell you something, anything, they will. Companies pay big money to marketing research institutes to find out what and how people buy and how commercials, infomercials, fashion, culture, trends, celebrities, TV, internet, etc. affect the buying populace.

daviem wrote: ↑21 May 2020, 01:06 ... clearly their is more of a benefit getting exactly the perimeters I want that are ideal for them using clean water without chemicals ...

It's clear only on paper. When a newbie or even a seasoned fish keeper artificially maintains the water (see MarcW's exampe above), let it be hardness, TDS, or pH, there is always an opportunity for inconsistencies and errors, which will stress the fish. The less experienced the keeper, the more dangerous this practice is to the fish. So, no, not so clearly better... In theory, yes, as I have already agreed with you above, it can be better.

Also, for the colombian shark catfish there is probably no such thing as ideal water hardness and TDS. The ideal for them would be to keep them in fresh but hard water no longer than past 6", then transition to brackish, can be light brackish, then by 12" to heavy brackish, and by 18" to marine, or some such. It's not set in stone. You could have them in full marine by 8"-12" too and be fine.

daviem wrote: ↑21 May 2020, 01:06 ... using clean water without chemicals or the weird residue on top and funnily enough I don’t have algae in a day or a stinking aquarium after a few hours, I rather use clean water than whatever is pumped to try and clean recycled sewer water.

Film on top, algae in a day, and stink in hours? Tell us more and in good detail, if you will, about your experience and experimentations with your tap water because this seems indeed disturbing what you have been trying to tell us about your tap water... You may be right for all we know but you have to explain and defend your position, when questioned... Please, don't be offended by an unfortunate choice of my words. I meant and mean well.

Posted: **21 May 2020, 20:47**

Viktor Jarikov wrote: ↑21 May 2020, 18:37
daviem wrote: ↑21 May 2020, 01:06 ... clearly their is more of a benefit getting exactly the perimeters I want that are ideal for them using clean water without chemicals ...
It's clear only on paper. When a newbie or even a seasoned fish keeper artificially maintains the water (see MarcW's exampe above), let it be hardness, TDS, or pH, there is always an opportunity for inconsistencies and errors, which will stress the fish. The less experienced the keeper, the more dangerous this practice is to the fish. So, no, not so clearly better... In theory, yes, as I have already agreed with you above, it can be better.

When I was a student, in the 1990ies, we had to work with artificial tapwater, because the studie was after the results of kopper on Tilapia. And all the plumbing was dine in copper.

Monday morning 30 ppm of copper was measuered, by the time coffee was made iot was down to 2 again.

We had a recepy, consisting of making 3 stock solutions, which were added to demiwater, and in a laboratorium one is used to doing complicated stuff. But still things got messed up - adding solution B twice, and forgetting solution C, Adding the A amount of solution B - it all has happened.

I would never suggest doing this at home, because we all have our off days, we all have forgotten the very fact there is water flowing once, or many times.

I only want to day that wat Victor mentioned is purely the truth.

When the potable water is not good, it is much easier to filter or whatever it than turning it into RO water and reconstitute it.

Posted: **04 Jun 2020, 12:17**

Well, I appreciate the help, I have contacted several places regarding GH in Brackish water using RO water since I last came onto the forum, this includes different manufacturers, forums, websites etc and then calculated things such as the marine salts calcium/magnesium/potassium content in the salt I used to figure the minerals I have added back in but not counting the salt only content to see the GH the RO water has and the minerals make a higher GH than the Tap water 16GH(when tested) without marine salt, so it turns out RO water is perfectly fine to use once Marine salt has been added, Before this I had been told by 2 3 manufacturers the GH of the marine salt is already quiet high even at low salinity but I had to check myself and it turned out they are correct (of course what Im saying is based purely on Columbian sharks) the GH would probably be too low with RO water for a Marine fish at 1.006 but then so would the salt content, there does seem to be an issue though the KH isn't great at this salinity its around 4dKH, the PH does seem stable though, I did add seachem replenish before figuring out the approximate GH in the RO water but I shouldn't have added the replenish to increase the GH as it was already high enough but I was told the water probably had no GH back when I used RO water.

Posted: **04 Jun 2020, 13:35**

Hi all,

daviem wrote: ↑04 Jun 2020, 12:17.........I had been told by 2 3 manufacturers the GH of the marine salt is already quiet high even at low salinity but I had to check myself and it turned out they are correct (of course what Im saying is based purely on Columbian sharks) the GH would probably be too low with RO water for a Marine fish at 1.006 but then so would the salt content, there does seem to be an issue though the KH isn't great at this salinity.....

Have a look at the composition of sea water, Lenntech is a Dutch company, so they use a "." as the thousand delineater.

Parts per million (ppm) and mg/L are equivalents, so the levels of chloride (Cl-), sodium (Na+), sulphate (SO4--) and magnesium (Mg++) all in the thousands of ppm (Mg = 1260 ppm, 1.26 ppt etc) and calcium (Ca++) is 400 ppm. Together the Mg++ and Ca++ ions are the dGH, and bicarbonate (HCO3-) 140 ppm is the dKH.

The reason the level of HCO3- is lower is to do with the low solubility of carbonates, there is an enormous buffer of biogenic CaCO3, which always maintains that level and also means the pH is "stable" at ~pH 8.

cheers Darrel

PlanetCatfish.com

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