PlanetCatfish.com

I'm pretty sure I can trust that the Planet's experts and admins have enough sense not to put into a nano aquarium.

As an insect enthusiast, I also know from personal experience that "informal" (non-expert-created or "mass media") websites discussing well-known insects are often filled to the brim with falsehoods. When dealing with insects, I am so cautious that I do not even trust big famous pest-control companies (no matter how many experts they claim to have, there are often serious errors on the websites) and certain seemingly-reputable books. I prefer to read jargon-filled entomology research papers and consult Bugguide experts.

Unfortunately, the situation seems to be similar with fishes. I have seen "goldfish grow only to tank size" in a DK (big reputable publisher) aquarium guide, and this is contradicted by the words of a large public aquarium's website. But when I google search, often there are only untrustable websites in the results, and I'm afraid of plaguing the Planet with uncountable numbers of "brown-thumbed aquarist" questions.

Umm... help!

Indeed there is a lot of misinformation out there.

After reading your whole post, I must confess confusion - What specifically do you need help with?

FWIW, I've asked lots of novice and misinformed questions here in the past, and I typically get good replies.

Cheers, Eric

-- Difference in knowledge levels,
-- difference in opinions and beliefs,
-- difference in forming and presenting one's thoughts orally and on paper, and
-- difference in perceiving, reading, and digesting someone's words

are all normal things.

One of my academic scientific teachers, Dr. Ralph H. Young, told me a wise thing once: "One must write in such a way that what is written cannot be misunderstood." This is amazingly hard to accomplish for an ordinary scientist, such as myself, writing a scientific, peer-reviewed paper, and equally hard for anyone attempting to write anything, from cell phone texts to half-serious essays. At best, it all comes out half-baked.

IMHO "goldfish grows to the tank size" is both right and wrong. There is no short answer to that, like Yes or No. Surely there is such thing as stunting. And surely there is such thing as cruelty. Surely it will not reach its full potential size and health. And surely it will long outgrow its tank before it perishes.

I think the final judgement should be derived from scientific publications, either directly for those proficient enough like you with insects, or as digested and presented by people we call experts and high level aficionados, who we tend to trust and who either popularize science through write-ups and publications, such as those in tropical fish-keeping magazines or even here on PCF and on MFK, or answer layman's questions on forums.

Sometimes I think there is too much information out there on the 'net. And contradictory information at that.

I ran into this issue in the last few days with my plecos. I have a female bristlenose pleco and a male albino bristlenose pleco. I had no clue they would actually "mate"...that is, until I got back home from a 2 day vacation to my mothers house for Thanksgiving. I left all the lights off in my tank and was pleasantly surprised when I got back to see my male albino fanning a big clutch of eggs on a log I had dropped in the water. Being a newbie to this hobby I was extremely excited and immediately jumped on the web looking for opinions on what to do..

..I was hit by so much information that I was scared into doing nothing at all. "Move them to a new tank", "dont move them, you'll kill the eggs", "wait until they hatch", "dont wait until they hatch, you'll kill them in transit to a new tank".. on and on. And dont get me wrong, I appreciated all the data that is out there. Sadly, I made the wrong decision I believe. I looked in the tank last night and was excited to see three little orange wrigglers. Felt so proud of my pleco for doing the fatherly thing.

..woke up this morning to find all 3 of the wrigglers completely gone. I dont know who ate them and dont care to find out. I do know I feel absolutely horrible about it, like I let my papa pleco down.

I have learned over time that it is almost just as well to learn by trial and error than it is to go by others opinions when it comes to such things. This morning was a harsh lesson for me, but one that I will rectify when my little girl lays more eggs.

One immediate and obvious reply to that could be that the info on the net must be filtered through a common sense filter. There are gradations of information trustworthiness. I trust experts and serious articles, data and care sheets, etc. I don't trust anyone on the forum (initially) unless I know they are highly proficient at what they do and what they are talking about.

Experts can and do disagree too but usually this is about things way over the heads of us, mere mortal fish keepers.

Inexperienced hobbyists too can sometimes report something that indeed occurred but they (and some of their readers) then fail to realize that what they saw was, for example, an exception, not the rule. And then people pick it up and start equating exceptions with rules and it becomes an intractable problem for them.

...

As another example, I saw a situation where someone asked for a fish ID. Ten laymen said it was this catfish. An expert chimed in and said it was a different catfish(which of course it was). The OP thought that ID is decided by democratic voting and said ok, the majority thinks it is the first catfish so it must be it.

The lesson is one must look at people's credentials and ascribe weight / worth to their words.

On cichlid related forus one often sees what Victor describes - somewone has luck, planly luck, and a rather agressive species is relatively calm. Keepable in a small tank, without any injuries

Then others say `it is possible to do so`. I must admit, it has been possible, but may we expect to be luckey? I would say no, although I did it sometimes myself, putting fish in a tank which should be too small in the end. But than, I do have a 4 meter (13 feet) tank where, in case of trouble, fish can be added to.

Trouble is, for an experienced keeper (that is, a keeper experienced with these fish, keeping catfish for 30 years does not count) predictable in terms of weeks, so if it does go wrong, there is plenty time to correct matters

bekateen wrote: 29 Nov 2017, 03:35 After reading your whole post, I must confess confusion - What specifically do you need help with?

Viktor Jarikov wrote: 29 Nov 2017, 13:16 "One must write in such a way that what is written cannot be misunderstood."

I think the final judgement should be derived from scientific publications, either directly for those proficient enough like you with insects, or as digested and presented by people we call experts and high level aficionados

Viktor Jarikov wrote: 30 Nov 2017, 19:25 One immediate and obvious reply to that could be that the info on the net must be filtered through a common sense filter. There are gradations of information trustworthiness. I trust experts and serious articles, data and care sheets, etc. I don't trust anyone on the forum (initially) unless I know they are highly proficient at what they do and what they are talking about.

How ironic, I was trying to shorten my reply in an effort to be concise and must have ended up deleting too much...



Anyways, here's the issue:

See this pdf about darkling beetles? http://cincinnatizoo.org/wp-content/upl ... eetles.pdf
It's from the Cincinnati Zoo. You would expect that something from the Cincinnati Zoo is trustable, especially when the sources it has cited all end in .org, .edu, or are books. However, there are several serious errors. For example, it is claimed that they are flightless, with fused wings. If any of you catfish keepers are raising a Tenebrio molitor mealworm colony to feed your pets, take an adult beetle and turn it upside down on a slick plastic/glass surface. Eventually, it will open up its elytra (shell-like forewings) and expose its hind wings (used for flying) in an attempt to right itself. "Fused wings" is thus obviously disproved. Scary, eh?

(summary: Tenebrio molitor beetles lack fused wings, but even a zoo citing .edu and .org has been fooled.)

So, now to fishes.

I do a casual search on water changes (freshwater fish). Here is one of the most reputable-looking articles I could find online: http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm ... 4&aid=2649 It says to do monthly water changes, no matter what. If you look at the bottom, it says that the website is part of Petco.

But the "actual" Petco website has said some things that contradict Planet Catfish, so either one or the other must be incorrect, and I'm betting that the Planet is correct. Here, it says that its plecos are : https://www.petco.com/shop/en/petcostor ... lecostomus

But the purple cat-e-log link says that the real H. plecostomus rarely if ever shows up in the pet trade.

So if we cannot trust one of Petco's websites, how can we trust the other one? And due to various reasons (please do not ask), I cannot buy any new fish-experts' books. Also, the only old fish-expert's book I can trust is on marine fishes, and freshwater fishes are not marine. I do have one on goldfish by William T. Innes (who has his own Wikipedia article), but Innes lived in a world where marine aquariums were almost nonexistent and color photography was a new technology, so I fear the effects of out-datedness.



Grand summary
Obviously, google isn't cooperating, because even the most reliable-looking sources it dredges up are a bit suspicious. I have heard the advice that it is good to get an expert's book, but I cannot buy any new ones and the old ones are either possibly-outdated, not freshwater, or inaccurate.

So how am I supposed to get any reliable info when dealing with my latest fish problem? Yes, I could ask the Planet, but one of its experts had previously told me how lacking-in-time many of them were.

You are observing a grand reality of the internet - user beware. But with that, the information you present simply confirms Viktor's points:

fat meloe! wrote: 01 Dec 2017, 04:25Anyways, here's the issue:

See this pdf about darkling beetles? http://cincinnatizoo.org/wp-content/upl ... eetles.pdf
It's from the Cincinnati Zoo. You would expect that something from the Cincinnati Zoo is trustable, especially when the sources it has cited all end in .org, .edu, or are books. However, there are several serious errors. For example, it is claimed that they are flightless, with fused wings. If any of you catfish keepers are raising a Tenebrio molitor mealworm colony to feed your pets, take an adult beetle and turn it upside down on a slick plastic/glass surface. Eventually, it will open up its elytra (shell-like forewings) and expose its hind wings (used for flying) in an attempt to right itself. "Fused wings" is thus obviously disproved. Scary, eh?

(summary: Tenebrio molitor beetles lack fused wings, but even a zoo citing .edu and .org has been fooled.)

You just fell prey to two things at once, both related to Viktor's comments:

First:

Viktor Jarikov wrote: 29 Nov 2017, 13:16"One must write in such a way that what is written cannot be misunderstood."

I think the final judgement should be derived from scientific publications, either directly for those proficient enough like you with insects, or as digested and presented by people we call experts and high level aficionados (color emphases added by Eric)

The resource you cite from the Cincinnati Zoo is not wrong per se, but it is written for the general public (and by general public, I'm specifically thinking also school kids, since many zoos target their educational material to that demographic); in so doing, the zoo has simplified the material so as to not overwhelm the general public with the minutia of details. Darkling beetles are a diverse group. Some like Tenebrio molitor (as you noted) are flight-capable and do not have fused wings. But a large number of darkling beetles do have fused wings and are flightless. In fact, because having fused wings and being flightless are derived traits in beetles, darkling beetles as a group are noted scientifically for this very trait. To see how significant this is to the biology of darkling beetles, just follow this link and observe the number of scientific papers written about flightless darkling beetles: https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=e ... flightless

So to Viktor's point about writing, it is challenging for complex and finessed details to be relayed in abbreviated written material accurately, even when written by skilled authors. And in this instance, it appears that the Cincinnati Zoo has stumbled on this - they generalized the information to highlight some intriguing aspects of darkling beetles, but in the process they misrepresented the full diversity of what can be found in darkling beetles.

Second:

Viktor Jarikov wrote: 30 Nov 2017, 19:25One immediate and obvious reply to that could be that the info on the net must be filtered through a common sense filter. There are gradations of information trustworthiness. I trust experts and serious articles, data and care sheets, etc. I don't trust anyone on the forum (initially) unless I know they are highly proficient at what they do and what they are talking about. (again, emphasis added by Eric)

I suspect you are well aware that large commercial corporations are not known for either their own up-to-date accuracy on material or their consistency within their own organization (especially when we take into account that often these big corporations create complementary companies with a different focus, or buy out competitors in order to move into a new market... and in so doing they sometimes absorb web content from their new property without checking to see if the material is consistent with their own).

Viktor pointed out that we all need to exercise judgement and common sense. I don't think any experienced aquarist will tell you there is a single "always-right" answer to the question, "How often should I do a water change?" The answer to that question is dependent on so many variables - tank size, bio load, feeding regimen, temperature, the capacity and type of filtration you use, etc., etc., etc. If you attempt to put one Petco website against another and against a resource page like PlanetCatfish and you treat them as if they are all equally valid, of course you will be confused by their discrepancies. Practice Viktor's "common sense" and ask youself - are water changes a one-size-fits-all type of issue? No.

fat meloe! wrote: 01 Dec 2017, 04:25Grand summary
Obviously, google isn't cooperating, because even the most reliable-looking sources it dredges up are a bit suspicious. I have heard the advice that it is good to get an expert's book, but I cannot buy any new ones and the old ones are either possibly-outdated, not freshwater, or inaccurate.

So how am I supposed to get any reliable info when dealing with my latest fish problem? Yes, I could ask the Planet, but one of its experts had previously told me how lacking-in-time many of them were.

As to your final point about where do people get good information, the answer to this is the same as the answer you may have given your own children (if you have any of school age) when they asked you, "how do I spell this?" Or "what is the meaning of XXX?" Look it up. Use the skills you have to search, to explore, to develop different questions that help focus your concerns, and don't expect that the answers will be straight forward or easy.

There are lots of things that even the experts don't know. You may have a question about what to feed species XXX and nobody has an exact answer. Period. In other cases, as @Bas Pels stated above, some people have had unique, atypical experiences, so their advice won't match that of other people. Ultimately, you will have to come to your own conclusions. Maybe trial and error. Fail and learn from your failures. I know I have, lots of times. (e.g., here: http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... 13&t=43789)

Finally, to your comment about whether people here "have time" to answer your questions. First I'd go back to the "look it up" point: This website has been operating for almost 20 years. Lots of people have come before you and have asked many of the same questions you might have. Their experiences are here in these forums. I'd encourage you to use your wits and cunning to think of ways to leverage the search tools to find those old posts. It's not always easy. If you look at some of the posts I've started when I had questions (e.g., here: http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... 52#p289836 and here: http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... 20#p287580), you'll see that I struggle to find lots of old forum posts that helped answer my questions, but the terms used in the old post were not what I expected. So to help people in the future, I summarized the old threads I found so that they can find them too, with less effort than I had to expend. My point in all this is that if you consider the people who do answer questions here, many of them have been answering the same questions over and over again; and while they may not mind doing it, they will be pressed for time. Nobody here is paid to post answers. All of us are members and volunteers (if we help people) just like you. We have day jobs. We have families. We have other obligations. So although we are happy to be helpful, we do greatly appreciate it when people "do their homework" first and scour the other resources on this website before just asking a question and expecting an instant answer.

That said, if anyone was rude to you in their reply, I'm sorry that happened. While I also have received a few curt answers from people responding to my questions, most people here have been very helpful, kind, patient and understanding with me when I've had questions. I hope you have a similar experience.

fat meloe!, I hope my words don't sound judgemental or critical. I'm taking your questions at face value and responding with answers I hope are helpful. I am referencing your (and Viktor's) other posts to tie together the advice which Viktor gave with the concerns you've expressed because I think they go together well.

Cheers, Eric

Thanks, bekateen!

Although my question was completely answered, there seem to have been a few misunderstandings. Since these are not too significant, I guess this topic is finished.

Unless anyone is curious about the whole affair with darkling beetles, of course...