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Hi All,

I've just been to my LFS in the UK and they had a pair of stunning sexed 1 male/1 female WC Zebra Pleco's for sale £500 for the pair.

I did ask how they had WC L046 and they said they have CITES permits for these fish which I can see if I wanted so... a couple of questions.

Is it now possible to get legal wild caught Zebs, I don't believe my LFS would sell illegally caught fish as it's a reputable chain.

Do you think £500 is fair price for these fish they are 2 years old and about 3 inches in length, the male was noticeably bigger than the female.

Cheers,
Rhys

Somebody else should confirm this.

My understanding is that it is possible for wild caught zebras to leave Brazil legally for use in research. This takes a bunch of paper work. However, if the fish are not being euthanized as part of the research, when to study has been completed, it is legal to sell the fish. There is not a lot of this going on.

The research facility which obtained the fish would have to have a certificate for them to have been exported from Brazil originally.

At this time zebras are listed in the Appendix to the CITES agreement. This means all signatories to the convention must require a certificate of origin accompany any zebras coming into their country. This has put a big damper on the illegal trade in wild caught zebras.

@Lukan

Marte (user name - Lukan) - Can L46 WC still be imported legally despite the CITES 3 listing that came into effect on January 1, 2017?

I purchased some WC a few month back from a very reputed importer here in Canada who assured me that the L46 were legit and not smuggled. I was also offered another lot of WC L46 from the same importer a couple of months later but did not purchase the second lot. This means that there was a legal way of bringing in WC L46 to Canada.

I have subsequently heard from many folks who know a lot more than me on this subject that you cannot export WC L46 out of Brazil and that they are smuggled out of Brazil to neighboring countries and then sent across the world from those countries without the correct paperwork.

Here's a link to an authoritative article on Zebras.

https://www.reef2rainforest.com/2016/11 ... es-listing

I have reproduced below an extract from this article ......

"It's been over a decade since wild-caught H. Zebra could be legally obtained in the aquarium trade"

There is a difference between fish coming out of Brazil illegally for the ornamental trade and those which may be allowed out for research. Years back I dealt with a lady who had friends in a local university. The researchers there would get zebras from Brazil with permission. They had the paperwork. If the fish did not have to be euthanized for the research, when it was done the university would sell them to this lady.

There is one other thing to consider here. I know of no way one can tell the difference between a wild caught zebra and a tank raised one. So, in many cases I would bet many zebras sold as wild are not. For dedicated breeders new wild blood is highly desirable over time. Knowing with any degree of certainty that any wild caught group is unrelated is something that is impossible. As with anything, there are always dishonest people. How much money does it take to get a veterinarian to lie and say zebras which are wild caught and have been smuggled out of Brazil before the Appendix listing (or possibly after it) are tank raised? How hard is it for a seller to tell a potential buyer that tank raised fish are are wild but they have to be certified as tank raised to get that piece of paper?

In the end I think it is a lot more important to be obtaining healthy specimens with no deformities than to try and find real wild caught fish with any degree of certainty they are.

One last note, the Appendix listing of zebras requires a certificate of origin for fish sent between countries which are signatories to CITES. It applies to both wild and tank raised fish. The good part for those of us in the states is the Appendix rules do not apply to fish sales the have both parties in the USA.

The bottom line is that this species only occurs in Brazil and Brazil does not allow its export. Therefore, your LFS cannot claim that these are legally obtained WC H. zebra - there is no such thing. Also, how can they know the age of the fish if they are WC? Smells fishy to me... I'd ask to see the paperwork if I were you.

Panaque is correct, no wild caught zebras are legally collected and exported. The unfortunate side of all this is that the species may well be wiped out eventually.

Eventually would seem to be now.........

http://maaproject.org/2017/belo-monte/

What nature takes 1,000s upon 1,000s of years to create humans are able to destroy in under a decade......

TwoTankAmin wrote: ↑10 Nov 2017, 15:12 Eventually would seem to be now.........

http://maaproject.org/2017/belo-monte/

What nature takes 1,000s upon 1,000s of years to create humans are able to destroy in under a decade......

This project is undoubtedly doing a lot of damage. However, we don't know whether it in itself will lead to the extinction of H. zebra. Illegal collection for the aquarium trade is certainly exacerbating the situation for the wild population and anyone that buys these illegally exported animals is complicit. There can be no excuses in my book.

Thanks for all the replies.

It's an interesting debate on if wilds should be removed as their national habitat is in the process of destroyed.

Personally I think I'll give these wilds a miss from my lfs so will look for some tank bred zebs which is a shame as they are not easy to find in the UK so if anybody can recommend a good breeder in the UK that can post or near to Cardiff it would be much appreciated.

Cheers

Certainly an interesting topic, I occasionally see shops advertising wild caught zebras and wonder how they get around the restrictions.

As for a UK breeder, I don't know one, but tank bred zebras do seem to fairly often appear in Maidenhead aquatics stores, I was in one yesterday which had 4 zebras maybe 2 to 2.5 inches TL.

I guess they were imported from one of the farms breeding them rather than a local breeder trading them in.

Hi,
I do not think that there is actually any legal way to export Zebras from Brazil for ornamental trade.
Have been in Altamira and with university people and fishermen there four times in the last few years, ... nearly all fishermen are catching Zebras, but illegally.
Those are transported to Belem by car or plane and then mostly to Manaus by plane (boat is a long ride) in very small suitcases. Those bags contain tiny plastic bags with 1 zebra each and a little bit of water. From there the Zebras are smuggled to Colombia, and from Colombia those Zebras are exportet for ornamental fish trade.
A person, who does not know, what is inside the suitcase, has to transport the suitcase and then deliver it to a hotel room in Columbia. So if the police catches one of the smugglers, those are always "non important persons", not the real dealers.
A lot of Zebras die during this transport or get weak.
Police in Manaus regularily catches some of those shipments. IBAMA has to take the zebras. Mostly they are brought to INPA to take care of and then, after some time, the fishes should be brought back to Xingu.

But keeping condidions in Manaus are sometimes rather weired (e.g. electricity falls out, pump does not work anymore, ...).

I never took care of those Zebras, which I sometimes probably should have done.
I am still extremely sad and also full of anger when I remember this day:

I found all zebras in one of the tanks have died because of the pump had fallen out (and am really angry because there would be ways with two pumps, ...).
I took 86 (??? cannot remember for sure anymore, about 90) freshy dead zebras out of this tank and put them into alcohol.
So sad.
So angry.
The Zebras of the second tank were fine (anyway, many also die because of weakness, no food during transport, ...), and the surviving ones went back to Pará some time later.

Do not buy wildcaught Zebras!

This would be very new for me, if they should be allowed to be exported from Brazil now (about one year ago I was in Altamira for the last time and nobody told about this, and we talked a lot about Zebras).

Cheers,

Walter

Walter wrote: ↑15 Nov 2017, 09:50 Do not buy wildcaught Zebras!

Thank you Walter! I couldn't agree more.

Thanks Walter, a very informative post, I certainly learnt something. So many lost just to attempt to get a few out of the country.

@ Walter ....

Thanks very much for your informative post. I purchased a group of Wild Caught L046 a few months ago from a from a very reputed pleco breeder/importer here in Toronto, Canada who assured me that it was legal to export Wild Caught L46 out of Brazil as long as the correct paperwork was available. I ended up paying a premium for the 'Wild Caught' and took his word for it on the legality of exporting WC Zebras out of Brazil as I was new to Zebras. I stressed on many occasions that I do not want to be a part of the Zebra smuggling chain and was assured that it was legit. A few days after receiving the Zebras, I requested for a copy of the Certificate of Origin, but very strangely was not provided with one.

After reading Walter's post and others, I now have serious concerns whether the importer and I unknowingly ended up being part of the Zebra smuggling chain

gehandylan wrote: ↑15 Nov 2017, 16:52 @ Walter ....

Thanks very much for your informative post. I purchased a group of Wild Caught L046 a few months ago from a from a very reputed pleco breeder/importer here in Toronto, Canada who assured me that it was legal to export Wild Caught L46 out of Brazil as long as the correct paperwork was available. I ended up paying a premium for the 'Wild Caught' and took his word for it on the legality of exporting WC Zebras out of Brazil as I was new to Zebras. I stressed on many occasions that I do not want to be a part of the Zebra smuggling chain and was assured that it was legit. A few days after receiving the Zebras, I requested for a copy of the Certificate of Origin, but very strangely was not provided with one.

After reading Walter's post and others, I now have serious concerns whether the importer and I unknowingly ended up being part of the Zebra smuggling chain

Either that or the 'reputable' importer sold you captive bred as wild caught so that they could get a higher price. Let's hope it was the latter. I suggest you have a polite conversation with the importer to get to the bottom of it. In any case, thanks for sharing this experience - it's a lesson for everyone.

@panaque .....

I have exhausted the polite conversations as the importer insists that they were WC

I have heard from a couple of pleco buddies in Europe that L46 and a few other rare plecos are bred in large tanks close to the river using river water. These plecos are subsequently sold by importers as WC to garner higher prices. This would usually be the case if all L46 in a shipment are generally of the same size with very little variability.

gehandylan wrote: ↑15 Nov 2017, 20:55 @panaque .....

I have exhausted the polite conversations as the importer insists that they were WC

I have heard from a couple of pleco buddies in Europe that L46 and a few other rare plecos are bred in large tanks close to the river using river water. These plecos are subsequently sold by importers as WC to garner higher prices. This would usually be the case if all L46 in a shipment are generally of the same size with very little variability.

Well,
this would be also extremely new for me.
Leandro Sousa has set up the breeding facility on Campus Altamira (UFPA) end of 2015, ... it was in construction. End of 2016 it was finished, but they did not have any breeding success at this time. This is breeding for science, and Leandro takes the advice of foreign catfish breeding specialists to get this going. If they should have had success now, those fishes are not for export.
None of the fishermen and ornamental fishtraders and scientists in Altamira or Vitoria to Xingu lost ever a word of a breeding facility. Guess, there have been attempts in Belem.
And there was a breeding program before the University started the new attempt. This was funded by Norte Energia (the company of the dam), and done by scientists, and they tried breeding Zebras at two locations; they had X wildcaught Zebras and within two years ony y clutches/successful breedings (sorry guys, I know the exact numbers, but cannot post them here in public, the number of successful breedings was unbelievably low, the number of Zebras very high).

So I doubt there is any breeding success for ornamental fish export near Rio Xingu.
There are attempts... probably.

I talked a lot (lot lot lot) about Zebras (everyone is talking about Zebras there) and worked with the guys from Xingu (scientists, fishermen, exporters) and other Brazilian specialists... and no one ever told about such a (successful) facility.

Honestly:
I strongly doubt this (export captivity bred Zebras from Brazil).

Walter

@walter .........

Could it be possible that L46 are being captive bred in neighboring countries and then unscrupulous importers tag them as 'WC' and 'legit' to make a quick buck from unsuspecting buyers?

The price of a L46 like anything else depends on what buyers are willing to pay. It's the misleading of buyers that leaves a bad taste. At least now I know (thanks to this thread) that there cannot be a legit WC Zebra imported from Brazil.

This makes no commercial sense. You can bred zebras (as fish go they are low fecundity and high tech) anywhere in the world but it’s easier where there is good water and transport links.

Hi,
There are efforts in Brazil to breed Zebras and start a "ornamental fish breeding industry", to protect Zebras in the wild and give work to fishermen (yes, they wanted the fishermen to "change job"), but wo far without success.
Hard for Brazilians to do this, because they do not have any "ornamental fish breeding tradition", as for examples the Southeast Asians do (and Europeans).
Neighbouring countries? Well, I personally do not know any ornamental fish breeding in e.g. Peru or Columbia, either, and they are far away from Xingu, do not have Xingu water (what is not necessary to breed Zebras anyway).

I still think all those wild caught zebras nowadays, are the so called "Columbia Zebras", which did the way Xingu - Belem - Manaus - Columbia.
Or they are captivity bred ones and "mislabelled".

But I also guess, Asia is the better market for those illegally exported fishes, than North America and EU, where the rules are much stricter.
I regulary get messages on Facebook from Asians, who ask me for Brazilian fishes (I am no fish dealer or exporter or fisherman at all, but I have tons of pictures of Amazonian fishes in the wild on my FB page, and that is why those people probably think I am in this industry), and I get messages from South Americans (not Brazilians), who ask me to buy fishes from them. So there for sure IS a market for those illegally caught fishes.

Zebras are probably the most wanted ornamental freshwater fishes nowadays, because their export is forbidden, and if there would be a legal way to export wildcaught zebras with Cites from Brazil, for sure a lot of people would know this and this would not be "a secret".


Ask the dealer again for permissions...


Walter

Oh the sacrifice of logic. How many members on this site own zebra plecos? According to the L nymber page 392 members admit to it.

It has never been permitted to export zebras from Brazil.

I think before IBAMA there were no regulations at all, but that did not make it legal to remove the fish.

So what is the source/origin of any zebra owned by any member of this site?

They all trace back to wild caught zebras. The only question is how many are actually wild caught or how many generations they might be removed from wild caught?

The single best way I can think of to have curtailed the illegal trade in wild caught zebras was for there to be a sufficient supply of captive bred fish to meet the demand. And the best way to have made that happen with the least damage to wild populations would have been for there to have been a different set of regulations. A fixed/controlled number of wild zebras should have been allowed for export every year. This would have helped establish captive breeding without all the deaths that come with smuggling. There is a whole cascade of other benefits which could have fallen into place from this as well.

It should now be the rainy season for the Xingu. I would ask those members who are there now or who travel there with any regularity to describe how the Big Bend looks these days? How are the water levels? How is the water quality?

That’s not true is was perfectly legal to export these fishes from Brazil before the Positive List. Also, you can’t tell how many of the registered populations are captive bred. All mine are.

Jools

TwoTankAmin wrote: ↑16 Nov 2017, 18:58

It should now be the rainy season for the Xingu. I would ask those members who are there now or who travel there with any regularity to describe how the Big Bend looks these days? How are the water levels? How is the water quality?

No,
now is end of dry season, start of rainy season, waters at lowest levels. High waters are later, in the beginning of the year, up to April, May, June...

Does not make much sense for fish people to go there in the first half of the year, won't see much.
I was once in February and once in April, could see nearly nothing under water and because of the high water it is much harder to catch fishes (I was not there because of this).

Best time to go there is September, ... August to October, maybe November... seasons are not the same each year.

Walter

Here's an interesting read ....

http://www.reef2rainforest.com/2016/11/ ... s-listing/

Here's an extract from this credible article that sums up the legality of WC L46 .....

"It’s been over a decade since wild-caught H. zebra could be legally obtained in the aquarium trade."

@Jools

When did the positive list come into effect that made the collection, transportation and sale of WC L46 out of Brazil illegal?

Gehan

Hi Gehan,

After a bit of searching I believe the first version of the positive list came into effect some when in 2012, there is a thread discussing it here: http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... =5&t=34434

As this was ~5 years ago, it is possible that there are some 5-6 year old + wild caught Zebras in captivity which were exported before the ban and could be being sold on now. Although there are issues to be overcome if a previously WC or even tank raised zebra is moved across borders, in 2016 it was added to CITIES Appendix 3, which means to trade it you need certificates of origin and maybe other additional documentation.

Addition of Hypancistrus Zebra to CITIES Appendix 3 (open the first pdf result): https://www.cites.org/eng/search/site/h ... us%20zebra
Article covering it (same as you linked to above): https://www.reef2rainforest.com/2016/11 ... s-listing/

There is a thread here on PC from Dec. 2004 discussing this topic. One of the things it covers is there actually was a ban on the import of specific fish, which included zebras, at about that time. In that thread there is also a discussion of the up coming permitted list.
http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... c&start=30

Here is the relevant quote:

What you said are true. Zebra is temporarily prohibited for trading, pending a study and evaluation. Brazilian ichthyologists are currently revising a new list of permitted species with IBAMA. The new list probably will include 600-700 freshwater fishes that can be exported. It is an impossible task to inspect fishes.

the above was posted by:
Prof. Ning Labbish Chao, PhD
Departamento de Ciências Pesqueiras
Universidade do Amazonas - Projeto Piaba
Av. Gal. Rodrigo Otavio Jordão Ramos, 3000
69700-000 Manaus - AM, Brazil

So it seems as if two things are true- One is that there was a time when zebra plecos were specifically banned from being caught or exported. Also that the was some sort of permitted list well before 2012.

The other interesting part of the thread is where it indicates the permitted list was apparently only 400 species and that the new list would likely contain 600-700 fish.

There is another thread from about 6 months earlier which supports the above http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... c&start=30
That thread indicates that zebras are prohibited from being fished let alone not allowed for export.

@Walter
The information I have read indicated that the onset of the rainy season for the central Brazil region usually starts between Sept and Nov. So I thought perhaps this was the time the water levels in the Big Bend should be rising. Since the official posture is that water levels will be maintained at peak dry season levels year round, I was looking for confirmation from somebody actually there that the normal rise was not happening or that this info was wrong a water levels were indeed rising. Please keep us posted.

@Jools
I have never heard of a registered population of zebras. Is this something unique to the UK or the EU. And then I would also ask, how can anybody prove they have either tank raised or wild caught fish? A certificate can be forged or be an outright lie. So while the idea behind them may be a good one, it does not actually guarantee the source of a fish using verified science. As far as I know this is not possible, at least not without killing the fish to try and determine this?

Finally, I acquired my proven breeder group in Apr. 2006 along with several fry. These fish had to be in the 3 to 4 year old range. I wonder if any of them were illegally removed from Brazil? However, here is what I do know. I placed many 100s of F1 zebras with other fish keeper since early 2007. Every group of the tank raised fish that went out mean two things. The first was the buyer would hopefullly grow them out and get them spawning. That would make more tank raised fish available. Morover, every one I placed was one less zebra that might have had to come out of the Xingu to meet that demand.

let's assume for the sake of discussion that all 13 zebras in my group had been originally removed from Brazil in violation of the law or regulations. Didn't that actually have the effect of saving other fish still there? I would observe that in 2006, and especially earlier, is was not easy to find F1 zebras. Today this is no longer true.

Only more time will tell if the zebras survive in the wild. I am in the camp of those who believe they will not. However, in considering the illegal removal of them and the potential consequences of that vs the reverse have different outcomes if one vie or the other proves to be wrong.

If those who believe they will not survive the dam are correct, then the illegal removal has created a worldwide captive population the will preserve the species. If we are wrong and the illegal removal crashes the wild population, could it not be re-established from captive populations returned to the the Xingu as long as the conditions there could still support them? On the other hand if those who believe no wilds should be collected since we do not know for sure they won't survive are wrong and they are wiped out, they are lost forever. Which point of view will have the worst outcome if it is incorrect?

I am not so sure how black and white this whole issue really is (excuse the pun).

This is a general comment and not aimed at any forum member whether you are a part of this thread or not .........

If we opt to buy WC L46 after being well aware of the WC L46 export ban in Brazil (no matter how honorable the intentions are about the conservation of L46 due to possible risks from Belo Monte dam), we then become knowing and active participants of the WC Zebra smuggling chain. We are in effect helping and supporting smugglers violate laws of the country where Zebras originate. This illegal supply chain only thrives because of the demand we the buyers create. The possible risks to WC Zebras from the Belo Monte Dam does not make the purchase of WC Zebras less illegal!

PS. I am just a novice Zebra keeper and not experts like most of you in the forum.