Mysterious Royal Pleco Illness

[Tron]

1. Water parameters
a) Temperature range: 76-80 deg, but normally around 78 deg
b) Ph: 6.0.
c) I do not possess the GH test, but I only ever use purified RO water in the tank and during water changes.
d) I do not possess the KH test, but I only ever use purified RO water in the tank and during water changes.
e)Ammonia: 0.25 ppm, Nitrate: 5 ppm, Nitrite: 0 ppm.
f) Water change frequency: Once every 10 days

2. Tank set up
a) Size: 150 Gallons
b) Substrate: White sand, unsure of the brand, but it is not the super fine sand as the grains are somewhat large.
c) Filtration: 2x Aquaclear 110 and 2x Marineland Emperors
d) Furnishings: Lots of wood and plants, with a pvc pipe cave.
e) Other tank mates. Geophagus, Clown Loach, L091 Pleco, L007 Pleco, Ghost Knife, Bristlenose Pleco, Banjo Catfish, and four corydoras
f) How long has it been set-up? About 9 months, but the problems didn't occur until a couple of months ago.
g) When was the last new fish added? The L091 pleco but these problems were occuring before I added him.
h) Foods used and frequency? I use New Era plec pellets with the occasional zoo med pleco block. I used to use zucchini and sweet potato, but they trash the water.

3. Symptoms:
Hello everyone, thank you for reading my thread. I am having trouble keeping my two royal plecos healthy. The two plecos I have are a 9" L330 and a 10" L191. These two normally stay out of each others' way, but a few weeks ago, the L191 started to lose weight and developed a massively sunken in stomach. I took him out and put him in the hospital tank and he appeared to recover. Shortly after, the same symptoms affected the L330. So I put the L191 back in the main tank and the L330 in the hospital tank.

Around this time, the L191 began showing symptoms again, so I treated the whole tank with PraziPro and Metroplex thinking parasites were responsible. After the performing the treatment, the symptoms remain, so I once again swapped the plecos, putting the L191 in the hospital tank where he currently is, and the L330 in the main tank. Depsite treating the L330 as best I could, using API General Cure (because apparently it contains Praziquantel and Metronidazole) and Paraguard, within a few days he began losing weight, and now he won't eat the medicated food I have tried offering him.

4. I have attempted to medicate using Metroplex, Prazipro, and Paraguard, but so far nothing seems to work. I want to medicate the whole 150 gallons, but I am unsure what exactly I need to use to treat it. I have tried using medicate food using the plec pellets with Seachem Focus, Seachem Metroplex, and Garlic Guard, but still the L330 won't touch it

5. Metroplex, Prazipro, Paraguard, API General Cure. Nothing seems to rid the royals of whatever is ailing them

[Tron]

Still haven't made any progress towards my fish recovering. Has anyone ever run into a problem like this before?

[Narwhal72]

Panaque are wood eaters and eat copious amounts of wood in their natural diet. Do you have a lot of soft driftwood in the tank for them to gnaw on?

I am thinking that the problem may be a lack of cellulose in the diet. I would go back to feeding zucchini on a regular basis.

[Scleropages]

I agree with Narwhal72. If you don't already have driftwood in the tank that panaques will graze on, I would strongly recommend adding some. And, keep feeding them zucchini regularly. Panaques need a lot of fiber in their diet. As such, a lot of panaque poop comes with the territory.

FWIW, after I cut a zucchini in half, stick it with a heavy stainless steel fork to weigh it down, and put it in the tank, my ~9" TL royal panaque will eat it all within 48 hours--plenty of time before the zucchini starts to spoil. I alternate with the base of steamed/stir fried broccoli or cauliflower (the part that I don't eat when I cook it) and it eats those as well--and they don't need to be weighed down. Yams seem to be a bit messier so I usually give those as an occasional treat. Purple yams are the messiest, IMO.

[bekateen]

Yams seem to be a bit messier so I usually give those as an occasional treat. Purple yams are the messiest, IMO.

Perhaps I've had exactly the opposite experience: In my experience, zucchini disintegrates almost immediately, plus the fish don't eat the seeds, which then float around in the tank and mess up the filter intakes. The mess of zucchini is why I use raw sweet potato with my Panaqolus (which AFAIK, are basically tiny panaques). Independent of the mess the fish create with all their poop, zucchini falls apart to quickly and messes up the water. Sweet potato lasts a couple of days before it needs to be removed, with little or no fouling of the water. The worst thing it does is mold.

Cheers, Eric

[Narwhal72]

Are you thinking zucchini or cucumber? IME zucchini stays together very well. Cucumber falls apart rather quickly. Although I feed a lot of cucumber because it grows faster than I can eat it in my garden.

Andy

[bekateen]

Are you thinking zucchini or cucumber?

Both, in my experience.

[mattlamm]

Are you thinking zucchini or cucumber?

Both, in my experience.

Are you blanching them at all? If blanched yes they break down fast, but if you just cut them raw and place that in I find it lasts quite well. I usually don't leave it in more than 24hrs though.

[bekateen]

No, I don't blanch them. Sweet potatoes can last 2-3 days (without rotting) in my tanks, as long as the fish continue to eat them. If the fish stop, the sweet potato turns to a spongy, gassy moldy foamy slime.

[Tron]

Okay guys, I left a chunk of zucchini in the tank over night, and the L330 didn't touch it. Any other ideas guys? I would appreciate any and all help I can get. Thanks guys.

[bekateen]

In my experience, it can take up to two weeks for a fish to "discover" a new food. You'll need to remove the uneaten food and replace with fresh (of the same veggie, not a different one) until they do. Good luck.

Cheers, Eric

[Barbie]

How are you sure the pH is 6.0? If you are using only purified water, the odds are good you're actually crashing your pH, without a good amount of buffer. People get it in their head that their tap water is unfit to drink, so fish would prefer it purified as well, but without some hardness and buffering capacity, they're quite doomed. I would recommend mixing tap water with RO water to reach a TDS of 150ppm or so and a kH of 3 degrees for stability. pH isn't nearly as important to fish as 0 ammonia, IME. Do NOT just suddenly spike in a bunch of tap water without testing for actual values of both the tank and the incoming water first or it will get worse before it gets better. Slow and steady will be key, even if you just change out massive amounts with filtered water and then slowly add a few quarts of tap water to buffer. There are also commercially available additives, but most tap water mixed to the proper ratio is more than adequate.

Barbie

[Linus_Cello]

In my experience, it can take up to two weeks for a fish to "discover" a new food. You'll need to remove the uneaten food and replace with fresh (of the same veggie, not a different one) until they do. Good luck.

Cheers, Eric

Supposedly garlic is an appetite stimulant. You could try rubbing cut garlic on the zuchinni next time.

[bekateen]

Supposedly garlic is an appetite stimulant. You could try rubbing cut garlic on the zuchinni next time.

Good idea. I've used the NLS Thera A+ pellets and my fish love those. They are advertised "with garlic."

Thanks, Eric

[Tron]

I have the master test kit from API, so using that, I found the pH to be around 6.0. I am unsure what TDS means, but from what I understand, I just need to add small quantities of tap water till I really the 150 ppm and kH of 3 degrees?

Also, the L330 appears to be looking worse, so I'm going to add a small amount of tap water to see if that helps. I've used the Garlic extract on the pleco's food, but still he won't touch it. I'll try again tonight. Thank you all very for the help and information.

[Barbie]

Does your test kit go lower than 6.0 pH?

Barbie

[Tron]

It doesn't. Do you think the pH being too low could be the source of the problem? I'm going to do a water change right now and I am going to use some tap water like you recommended. Also, my L091 died, so I have to do something very soon to save the L330.

[Scleropages]

Low pH could definitely be a source of the problem. I've personally seen it happen quite a few times over the years. Panaques eat a lot of wood, releasing tanins. pH plummets. Panaques stomachs start to get very sunken in. Add sodium bicarbonate and within a few hours, stomachs look more normal.

[Tron]

How much should I add for 150 gallon tank? And what do you think is the best approach to solving this problem so that it doesn't reoccur?

[Barbie]

I would do a water change with filtered water, then start adding a gallon of tap water every 15 minutes until the pH comes up to 6.5 or so when you test it. If you've crashed the pH, you've probably also lost all of your bacteria in your filter, so ammonia will become exponentially more toxic as you bring the pH back up. Go slowly. You can dilute with filtered water to help stabilize it, but adding the tap water needs to be done slowly until it is coming up.

Barbie

[Tron]

I would do a water change with filtered water, then start adding a gallon of tap water every 15 minutes until the pH comes up to 6.5 or so when you test it. If you've crashed the pH, you've probably also lost all of your bacteria in your filter, so ammonia will become exponentially more toxic as you bring the pH back up. Go slowly. You can dilute with filtered water to help stabilize it, but adding the tap water needs to be done slowly until it is coming up.

Barbie

Okay, after reading all of this, it is beginning to make sense. I've been experiencing what I think is a bacterial bloom due to the water being cloudy, which in turn is caused by the loss of filter bacteria if I understand this correctly. I will do a water change of about 35 gallons and add one gallon of tap water every 15 minutes. I will dilute the tap water with filtered water as you said and stop once I've reached a pH of 6.5. Thank you very much for the help, I will post my results when I have finished. Also, should I consider the baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) or just use tap water? Thank you and have a wonderful day

[Tron]

Quick Update: I raised the pH to about 6.4-6.5. This took me about 2 hours to do, so hopefully it wasn't too fast. The L330's eyes have officially sunken in. Is this a side effect of raising the pH or is it something else entirely that I need to worry about? I hope he makes it, I even put in a small amount of food in case he gets hungry. Thank you all very much, and I would appreciate any feedback.

[Barbie]

Did you first do the water change with RO water to reduce the amount of waste in the water? Have you tested for ammonia or nitrite? What temperature are they? The sunken eyes would be attributed to stress and lack of eating, I would think, but it's difficult to say for sure. You can keep changing water with the RO water, as long as you keep enough hardness in there to keep it stable, not climbing. The pH below 6 converts ammonia to ammonium and will kill back your bacteria in your filter. Once you bring it back up, it can cycle again. Keep a close eye on ammonia and nitrite in the coming week.

Barbie