ID help, please. What did I buy - L201, contradens, or other?

[bekateen]

Hi All,

Let's try this again - shorter and to the point:

I just bought three new wild-caught fish sold as "Hypancistrus Inspector L201."
Upon looking at them, I can tell right away that they aren't

Hypancistrus inspector

. I didn't want inspector, I wanted

L201

. Did I get L201? I think so, but there are some photos of

Hypancistrus contradens

that look very similar, so now I'm not certain! (and if you can't tell by my attitude, I didn't want to buy contradens either).

To make matters more confusing, as I took the photos, I started to notice backwards pointing hard spurs on the top of their heads! I thought those only exist on Leporacanthicus! Have I accidentally purchased

Leporacanthicus galaxias

or something like it? Because if so, I am NOT ready to keep those. They will definitely get bigger than I want.

So, please friends, can you tell me what I bought? L201? H. contradens? or something else, like Leporacanthicus? Although I did not take photos of the teeth, I can tell you that when I looked at the teeth, they resembled the teeth shown for Hypancistrus inspector in this photo: http://www.planetcatfish.com/common/ima ... age_id=173, so I'm pretty sure they are a Hypancistrus and not Leporacanthicus. Also, their bodies do not resemble what I think of as the typical Leporacanthicus body. But do Hypans have this backwards pointing spur on the head? And if so, is it sexually dimorphic?

Thanks for your help. Cheers, Eric

[bekateen]

And here's two more photos, the latter showing the backwards pointing head spur:

[bekateen]

Here's the mouth and teeth of, I think, the larger female. Definitely not Leporacanthicus.

Also, from the photos in the first post, can anyone confirm the sexes of all three fish?

Thanks again, Eric

[pleconut]

Hi Eric I think you could be right regarding the sex of the first two fish, but maybe the third just needs to grow a bit more. I can't help much at all with the ID except for pointing out would a fish this small be sexable, because there is some differences if they were from a Leporacanthicus genus. As there's some clear differences between the first two, the intopercular gill spines and the pectoral fin spines indicates a male. The second fish although bigger, doesn't have these features at all, but I'd say because the fish is bigger if a male wouldn't it be further developed in these features as well. I'd go as far to say the third going on the papillae and body shape might be a female but looking more closely it also shows it could be an underdeveloped version of the first fish in terms of intopercular and pectoral spines. I hope you get a correct ID for them though.

[bekateen]

Hi Teresa,

Thanks. Although the bony spur on the head still continues to perplex me, and I hope somebody can tell me about Hypans having these, I am already convinced by the teeth and body shape that these are Hypans, not Leporacanthicus. Your comment that a Leporacanthicus at this size would probably not be sexable is one more factor supporting my impression.

I am 100% confident of the gender of the large male, and 99% confident of the large female; and I'm pretty sure about the smaller fish, but it could well be a subordinate male (although the body does have a subtle female shape to it).

So besides my wonderment about the head spur, my big question is about ID - Are these L201 or contradens?

Cheers, Eric

[jac]

For me, these are

Hypancistrus sp(l201)

I have seen the head spur more often, also in Hypancistrus. But to be honest I haven't taken much notice of it.

[bekateen]

Thanks Jac, for your opinion on ID. For me, the uncertainty comes from the fact that spot size is somewhat variable in both L201 and contradens, and from the fact that the only morphological difference is based on body "height," and I have a really difficult time discriminating that particular subtlety.

I never knew that some hypans had head spurs (for lack of a better name). I'm going to watch these and see how they develop, to see if they're sexually dimorphic. One thing I observed is that the spur appears to be largest on the smallest fish, which is also sort of thin. So I'm also thinking that this spur is less prominent (maybe somewhat buried by flesh on the head) in better-fed fish.

Do you (or anyone else) have any opinion of the sex of the smallest fish? I think it's a female, but I am insecure because it is a few mm smaller than the other two.

Cheers, Eric

[dconnors]

It looks to me that you have two species there, both L201 and Hypancistrus contradens. The contradens will have a bulkier appearance with larger spots while the 201s will be more low profile with smaller spots. Also the contradens get larger and the 201s get noticeable odontodes at a smaller size. At such a small size it is difficult at best to sex these, the one that is for sure male (with odontodes) is a 201. The picture that shows the head spur appears to be Hypancistrus contradens. As these fish settle in and grow you will be able to tell the difference between the two species. If you only have the three fish that you have posted pics it looks like you have two contradens and one L201.

[bekateen]

Thanks, dconnors. I did notice the subtle variation in spot size after i got the fish home, and the idea of two species had crossed my mind, but given the variation shown in CLOG photos... And more influentially, my desire to NOT have such a mix and I can't easily drive back to the store soon, and the fact that the fish look so similar otherwise (and my operating assumption that they were collected together from same locality) ... I was hoping that the ostrich's head-in-the-sand approach would work and any possibility of two spp. would not occur.

If you're correct on two sexes, and if I'm correct on gender, then that's a disaster - a male L201 and two female contradens!

Noooooooooooooooooooooooo!

Can I please get some more help here? Can more people who are familiar with these two spp. help to confirm or reject this possibility of two species?

Thank you, Eric

P.S., it is the smaller size trait of L201 that I desired in picking the species, and a small mixed species group becomes problematic, for obvious reasons. And it was the fact that the male was so easily sexed at this size which confirmed in my mind that these are L201. But if he's the only L201, then that confirmation is meaningless.

[pleconut]

As you're unable to collect anymore does the LFS where you got them ship at all? Could either help or hinder though, as the ones you've got and may receive could complicate things even further. I'm planning on having some shipped to me, but so I can choose I'm thinking of asking if the supplier can send me pictures of some of the fish I want to buy. Obviously it depends on the pictures and if you are confident that you are getting what you want. Just a thought...

[bekateen]

Hi Teresa,

The store is only an hour from my house. To mail/ship fish is unnecessary. The real problem for me is finding 3 hours in my normal day to drive there again before they sell out. And the differences are so subtle that I wouldn't want to impose upon store employees, no matter how skilled, to take responsibility for picking out all one species. But most importantly, although I would not want to keep two species, I'm still leaning towards them all being the same, and if they are the same, then no new purchases are necessary. So until more people can help me see the measurable and reliable differences, I don't think it's smart to replace fish or buy more out of invalidated fear (I don't mean dconnors' comment is invalidated fear, I mean my reaction would be).

On closer inspection of the CLOG photos, I can see head spurs in both contradens and L201, so that's not an issue. I just wish I could see the difference in body height/bulk. I think I need to take more pics of my fish, with careful side views. I also wish there were good side-by-side pics of the two species.

Please everyone, every additional experienced help you can offer on species ID, especially with regard to the possibility of this being a mix of two species, is wanted and appreciated.

Cheers, Eric

[bekateen]

Okay, in an attempt to visual potential differences in body shape and "bulkiness," I've reshot front and side view pictures of all three fish. These will be presented in the same order as above: Male, large female, small female.

Looking at the photos, I can see several differences among the fish:

1. The smallest fish has the most prominent bony spur on top of the head. The feature is present on the other two fish, but it is much less conspicuous in the two larger fish.
2. Compared to the two "females," the male appears to have the flattest head in profile, and the eyes appear to be the most upward in orientation.
3. The smallest fish appears (to me) to have the "bulkiest" head in profile, and this same fish appears to have the eyes most oriented sideways instead of upward.
4. The large "female" appears to be intermediate between the male and the small female in these features: Its head is taller (bulkier) than the male's head, but seems flatter than the small female's head, and the eyes are somewhat upward in their orientation, like the male, but not to the extreme seen in the male.

So I could imagine these being two species, with either both females, or only the smallest female (because of its more prominent body head spur and it has the tallest head and most side-oriented, not upward, eyes) being contradens, and the remainder being L201... But conversely...

... Conversely, how much of this can be accounted for by sexual dimorphism within one species (either all contradens or all L201)? As I understand it, males have wider heads than females, and people often say of fish that the "angle" of the head in profile is different between males and females, with one being more steeply sloped than the other (although I don't know which extreme goes with which sex). Thinking more about head width for a moment, it would make sense to me that if young males and females start out (before puberty) with the same basic head shape, and then the male head widens, at the very least this would give the IMPRESSION that the head is no longer as tall in proportion to its absolute width, compared to before puberty. Therefore the male head would also appear "flatter" than the female head. Likewise, if the skull is expanded to each side, this I can imagine, would reorient the position of the eye socket, with the result that the eyes might appear to point more upward in males. (Of course, this logic assumes certain mechanisms by which head widening occurs at puberty, and these assumptions of mine might be 100% incorrect.)

All of this is to say that these photos don't bring me any closer to a conclusion, but hopefully they will help some of you, especially those of you who have seen these fish with your own eyes, to be able to tell me if I have all L201, all contradens, or a mix of the two species.

Although I didn't want to buy contradens, if you tell me that all of mine are in fact contradens, I will be happy with them because I like the way these individuals look, so their actual species ID is immaterial. The only issue I will need to confront later is the fact that these fish will grow a fraction of an inch longer than full sized L201 would have grown. I can live with that.

If they are different species, I'll just have to leave work an hour early sometime this work, and hope/pray that the LFS still has a good selection of the fish remaining for me to get all one species (one way or the other).

Okay, so what say you?

Thanks, Eric

[bekateen]

Also, is there any reason to suspect

Hypancistrus sp(l471)

? After all, my two largest fish appear to be fully sexually mature at just below 60mm SL. And that's in the size range for L471, right?

Okay, I'm not trying to distract to L471 from L201 or contradens, but I just want to add it to the list of possible species/L-numbers to be ruled in/out:

Contradens? L201? L471? or a mix of different species?


P.S., clearly I'm not the first person to experience this dilemma: L201 or something else ?

[Mexnotex]

I had just seen some very similar at my lfs. They were tagged as L136b, but there are conflicting pictures on the same species. The spots change depending on what part of the river they are from.

Regards,
Mig

[Jobro]

Variations in color and headshape among hypancistrus is always a huge concern for ID. If you are seeing big sexual dimorphism at this size, you might rule out the H. Contradens. On the other hand it's too little sexual dimorphism for really mature L471 in my opinion. With 60mm SL (~70mm TL) they should be sexually active adult L471. There is lttle data on L471. But usually Hypancistrus adults show more gender related traits than yours. I'd rule out L471 by that. They are also very rare, decimating chances of L471 even further.

However, with newly imported fish, this dimorphism might be just side effects of bad condition due to import:
-> odonthodes tend to disappear on some males during transportation and will reappear months later.
-> flat/round bellies can be an effect of diet and must not be gender related (look at your P. Maccus)
-> headshapes can be quite missleading even in best conditioned hyps

It's true, L201 and H. Contradens can vary a lot in colouration. Your form could be either L201 with quite big spots or H. Contradens with small spots.
I can see some small differences in colouration among your 3 specimen. However this difference is tiny. Assuming you had both species. How are chances you find H. Contradens and L201 with same sized spots in one batch of imported catfish? How are chances L201 and Contradens spots being almost same size and colour in one shipment?
Sure it might be possible. But just how much of bad luck would that be?

On the other hand we know that hypancistrus can have a huge variety of colour patterns among the same species, especially so on L201/contradens. Chances of 3 wild L201/contradens having some tiny differences in colouration are actually pretty high! You won't have 3 line-breed siblings there, right? They are probably not related by blood. It would be really STRANGE if there was no variation at all in a species well known for it's strong variation!

Going with Occam's Razor, we have to assume those are one of a kind and have a natural, tiny fluctuation in colouration as most wild hypancistrus will have.

My bet would be you got some nice L201s there.
With at least 1 male. And good chances of 1 female, however not too sure about that.

[bekateen]

I can see some small differences in colouration among your 3 specimen. However this difference is tiny. Assuming you had both species. How are chances you find H. Contradens and L201 with same sized spots in one batch of imported catfish? How are chances L201 and Contradens spots being almost same size and colour in one shipment?
Sure it might be possible. But just how much of bad luck would that be?

On the other hand we know that hypancistrus can have a huge variety of colour patterns among the same species, especially so on L201/contradens. Chances of 3 wild L201/contradens having some tiny differences in colouration are actually pretty high! You won't have 3 line-breed siblings there, right? They are probably not related by blood. It would be really STRANGE if there was no variation at all in a species well known for it's strong variation!

Going with Occam's Razor, we have to assume those are one of a kind and have a natural, tiny fluctuation in colouration as most wild hypancistrus will have.

My bet would be you got some nice L201s there.
With at least 1 male. And good chances of 1 female, however not too sure about that.

Thanks jobro,

Yes I'm thinking this way too - that is, the odds that two different species would come in looking so similar are pretty low... I prefer to shave with Occam's Razor. . That said, I don't want to jump to this conclusion simply because it suits my purposes. If you think about it, the importers and wholesalers probably sort fish by similarity when they sell to the next level up the fish supply chain, so the odds of mixing probably are higher than we might assume.

Cheers, Eric

[bekateen]

More pics, if it will help you.

[bekateen]

UPDATE:
On additional advice from the Catfish Study Group Facebook page and the Catfishes of the World Facebook page, I was at the point of accepting the prospect that I had different fish: Original L201 (with small spots) and L201 "Big spot" (which is distinct from the original L201).

So I went back to the LFS (an hour away from home). My plan was to return the mismatched fish in my original group of three, and buy all of one kind - either all L201 or all "Big Spot" L201. To do this, I would first need to sort all the fish in the store.

The LFS owner let me dip my hands into the tank and hand pick/inspect all the remaining fish (about 12 in all) in his tank. I was in that tank for a full hour; I sorted every fish by spot size, spot clarity (since smaller spots also seemed to have more defined edges) and facial profile (taller, narrower head with more horizontally-oriented eyes, vs flatter, wider head with more vertically-oriented eyes), and placed them in separate bags.

In the end I separated 7 "big spots" from 5 smaller spot fish "L201". The result? 6/7 "big spots" turned out to be females (or at least little/no odontode growth), and 4/5 "L201" were all males (with prominent odontodes). There was one questionable fish in each batch, and their heads were both ambiguous (and these were smaller fish, ~50-55 mm SL). I bought the "L201" "female" but I suspect "she" will turn out to be a young or subordinate male. I also kept my original fish.

I do not wish to be argumentative, but given that I wasn't even looking at odontodes when segregating these fish, I find the odds that they would assort almost perfectly by gender (1/1024 if my math is right, although it probably isn't), with the two exceptions both being smaller fish, to be too extreme to be coincidence.

It is my conclusion that whatever these fish really are at my LFS (original "L201" or "big spot" L201 or contradens... I don't pretend to know for sure), they are most likely all the same type/species, and the differences we're seeing in my photos are strictly due to sexual dimorphism.

I'm not joking about my surprise: After meticulously sorting those fish, I looked in the small spot bag and I was shocked by all the odontodes I was seeing, and vice versa in the big spot bag!

In the end, I really don't think mine represent two species or populations.

Cheers, Eric

[bekateen]

Here's the extra fish I brought home. I had already sorted it into the "regular L201" bag (with smaller spots) and it had less odontode growth than other males, so I considered it a possible female L201 to go with my male L201.

But it has a chuncky head and slight odontode growth. It may turn out to be a male L201 "big spot."

[Jobro]

interesting stuff about genders and colouration. Nice LFS to let you handle the fish like that
How were prices? Just curious about retail prizes in US.

So, did you return one of yours? Or did you get a 4th one?

[pleconut]

Uk prices is £15.00 I've seen some for sale I'm also thinking of getting. But there's often big discrepancies between US and UK when it comes to prices of plecos.
Edit- for a juvenile.

[bekateen]

Mine were retailing for $20 USD, obviously for mature or nearly mature specimens.

Jobro, I kept all three of mine and bought the fourth.

The lesson of this thread is be careful how you choose them.

Cheers, Eric

[Jobro]

So now you got a pretty much safe pair of what you call L201 Big Spots and two oddballs of L201 that remain to be sexed? =D

For 20 bucks I would have gotten another one of the Big Spot females. Never hurtsto have plenty females, especially on wild caught's it's hard to find females.

[bekateen]

About my individual fish, yes - I suspect the new fish will become male, and if its head remains bulky then I will have a pair of big spots, a male L201, and the old small fish, which I suspect will be another female big spot. In that case, I'll sell off the L201 after some time (don't want to mix bloodlines of different types). But if this new fish is female, then I'm going with my logic and Occam's razor - these four fish are all the same type, and females are stockier than males.

About extras, I agree with your logic, except I don't have the tank space.


Cheers, Eric

[pleconut]

I'd like to have an idea of the size they are sexable at.
Edit- The minimum size

[bekateen]

Teresa, when I want that info, I look at all the BLOGS for the species. Those list the minimum size of the animals potentially involved in the spawn (although not a guarantee if a large group is involved and some juvies are included).

My fish were obviously in the 50-60 mm SL (w/o tail) range, and I saw BLOGs with fish at 50mm, so I knew I was safe on size.

Be careful, contradens gets longer than L201, so I imagine that minimal sexable size is also longer. L201 "Big spot" appears to reach about the same length as ordinary L201.

Cheers, Eric

[pleconut]

They are listed as L201, I could possibly end up in a similar predicament as you were, and the fish are being shipped, so unlike you I don't get to see them first. But the manager knows their plecos, and they have a very impressive stock list ordered in advance by them as the weather is warming up, some are from Glaser, so I have a bit of a shopping list so to speak. Obviously though a lot of research and consideration is going into it.

[Jobro]

Sexing Hypancistrus at 50mm can be quite challenging. If you are lucky and have a big group with some gravid females this may work out. But if they are in poor condition and you only have a few specimen to compare it will get pretty tough. I had really bad experience ordering Hypancistrus online by sexes. They were so wrong. I didn't get a single female... I would want to see them in person.

[bekateen]

Short video of the fish. ID seems to point to L201 big spot, although one male may be just L201 (although the difference in spot size among individuals is very subtle). Fourth specimen is not visible in video.

Cheers, Eric

Hypancistrus L201 big spot, new acquisition

[bekateen]

Here's a still photo of all four fish, all hanging out on the front of my home-made multi-cave stone. It's funny that none of these hypans will fit all the way into any of these caves if they go straight in, but they can fit in if they curl in sideways (the caves are large enough internally to allow this). So I often find all four fish piled into this big stone cave complex, most with a little tail sticking out. There are two "normal" caves available in the same tank, and so far these are mostly ignored. Go figure.