Is this a snub nose?

[MarlonnekeW]

About two months ago I bought my fist Hypancistrus, a L201 at a big aquarium far. After a while I started to notice that it had a pretty short nose. This week I came across a post about Hypancistrus with a snub nose and it made me wonder if this is what's 'wrong' with my little guy.

Here are two picture of him/her




What do you guys think, is this a snub-nose? It's still pretty young, I guess about 3cm SL.

At the moment I'm building a stand/shelves to put two new breeding tanks on. One of the options I'm considering, is to buy a few more L201 and start a small breeding group. But is it wise to breed with a fish with a snub nose?
It's currently living in my community tank, so there's no problem leaving it there. One of the reasons why I'm thinking of buying at least one more L201, is because it has become a lot more shy, since it's the only Loricariidae in my aquarium (until last week there was only a female L144/Ancistrus sp.4 in my tank). If I cannot add a fish of the same species, what would be good companion for my L201 to make it more confident?

Thank you very much for your advise!!

[Jools]

Yes.

Jools

[MarlonnekeW]

Thanks for the quick reply. Is my assessment correct that it's a pretty severe case of snub nose?

[Jools]

Its not the worst I've seen but I've never really thought of it in terms of severity.

Jools

[MarlonnekeW]

From the posts about snub nose, I've read I understood that there are mild cases and more severe cases. This is the first case of snub nose I've ever seen (until earlier this week, I've never even heard of it), but I guess this is not a mild case. I can imagine that how bad it is could be a factor in the decision whether or not to breed with a certain fish.

[Jools]

It is not genetic so has no bearing on breeding.

Jools

[Narwhal72]

Yep. Not genetic so it is still useful for breeding.

Andy

[MarlonnekeW]

Thats good news, thank you both!!

[Andrewjw]

Any thoughts or updates on understanding the etiology? Poor water conditions? Something missing in the diet? Too much of something in the diet? Not enough vitamin D?

[Narwhal72]

I don't think there is any validated evidence of what it is.

I have had it occur on L15 and L201's I have raised in the past. Both were fed a high quality diet. My personal thought is it may be a lack of a crucial element in the water that forms poor bone formation. Possibly iodine. This is based off some research done at the University of Florida on bone deformation in juvenile Lamprologous brichardi that they were able to trace back to a lack of iodine. Different species, but the physical symptoms were very similar if not the same.

I have also raised tons of Ancistrus, L333, L271, L226, and L140 as well as a number of whiptail and Sturisoma sp. and never seen it occur.

Andy

[Jools]

There is also a suggestion that, for the reasons suggested, that the damage is done while the fish is breaking out of the eggs case.

What I know from personal experience (and I have heard this from others too) is that you can breed snub nosed specimens and the resulting fry do not have the problem.

Jools

[Narwhal72]

I have heard the egg case theory before also and it seems very credible. But I don't think it's been determined whether the egg shells were too hard making it difficult for babies to escape (same as in breeding rams and tetras if the water is too hard). Or if the bones in the snout were too soft, making it difficult for the babies to break out of a normal shell. This would fall back on the same issue as the lack of iodine.

But again this is all theory. No one has done a controlled experiment to determine yet.

Andy

[Andrewjw]

I too have heard the egg case theory, but don't believe it. I have seen plenty of normal fry, up to one or two inches in some cases, subsequently develop the snub nose. Some pleco breeders in Southeast Asia have posited that too much food/nutrition may play a role, and that our overfeeding of nutritious food-stuffs may play a role....implying that less feeding, (perhaps a slower growth rate?), and more detritus like, wood like, material to eat, lessens or prevents the occurrence. That would explain a mechanism of course.

Anyone notice if it occurs more or less often in RO water or tap water? I assume iodine is removed via RO...

A different Andy

[TwoTankAmin]

I have always been a bit doubtful about ether the iodine theory or something else missing in the water or too much of something in the water. The reason for this is the results I have gotten over the years. Between 2006 and 2010 I had a group of zebra plecos which produced about 500 fry. I was averaging a spawn every two weeks when they were producing. Overall, I think I got about 5 snubbers (it was for sure fewer than 10). These fish were all born in the same tank using water from our private well.

If either of the causes mentioned were responsible, it should have affected more of the fry. So I developed my own theory. In the wild surfaces tend to be rounded, not squared. River rocks tend to be worn smooth over time as well. In tanks we use fabricated caves. A lot of these are rectangular with flat backs, Other have pinched backs. If you have ever watched a lot of the smaller plecos on eggs/wigglers inside of small caves you know how hard it is actually to see the eggs or wigglers early on. The dads press hard into the back of the cave and try to cover up whatever is back there. This can result in young wigglers being pressed nose first into a flat surface and this can flatten the front of their face.

To me, this could explain both why it happens yet why it is not more rampant when it occurs. Too little iodine in the water is too little for all the fish not just one. Having water that is too hard would, similarly, be too hard for all the eggs not just one or two. Having a face mashed against a flat surface is a lot more random. The dad must push a wiggler face first not sideways backwards or at an angle or off center.

The other factor here is I do not believe one sees the snubnose phenomenon in wild caught fish (please correct me if I am wrong on this). I think it would be a competitive disadvantage which affects the survival rate of any fish with this deformity. This is a supposition on my part as I have no evidence with which to support it. But, I see it as being much the same as long fin bn in the hobby. Those pretty long flowing fins would be a disadvantage in the wild as would albinism which makes a pleco stand out like a neon sign against dark rocks and wood.

Just one man's thoughts here.

[Narwhal72]

Interesting that you have seen it develop at a later stage. I was able to see the snubbies in a batch when they still had yolk sacs. Before they had even eaten anything.

[Narwhal72]

You raise a very good point TwoTankAmin. Even when I did have snubbies it was always like 2 or 3 out of 15-20 fry. If it was a more universal reason the rate of defect should be much higher.

[Jools]

The snub I worked with was Loricaria. They are lip brooders and not cave breeders.

Julian

[Andrewjw]

I have some snubbed Chameleon whiptails that are wild caught, but were small when i got them, about 1 inch total length. They looked fine initially on import, but over the next several months all (6) developed the deformity, to varying degrees.....Again, a lip brooder, and a later (post neonatal) development.
Andy

[Narwhal72]

Mabye we shouldn't rule out that the issue can occur for multiple reasons.

[TwoTankAmin]

Just to make sure @Jools

Lip brooder is a term I have not heard. Is this what might also be referred to as a mouth brooder? If so is it not possible as the eggs develop inside the mouth that one or two might get mashed against something hard inside the mouth? The only mouth brooder I have ever had were P. nicholsi, a riverine African cichlid and I never saw any snubbers. But then it is not a catfish.

Also i wonder re the occurrence of snub nosing in the wild. Some of the members here have spent enough time all over the world collecting fish and spending in time in various rivers just observing them. Have any of you seen snub nosed wild fish?

As for RO/DI units removing it, it would appear they should since the DI part will clear ions and:

Iodine is found on Earth mainly as the highly water-soluble iodide ion I−, which concentrates it in oceans and brine pools. Like the other halogens, free iodine occurs mainly as a diatomic molecule I2, and then only momentarily after being oxidized from iodide by an oxidant like free oxygen.

from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iodine

I suppose there could be a genetic cause. Suppose it is rare form of genetic mutation which causes it. Perhaps some missing or extra piece in the genetic coding causes it but so rarely that it has never been discovered? I would be surprised if anyone has undertaken a project involving the collection of snubbers from assorted species and then doing the genetic work required to determine if there is a coomon cause or there is no clear cause in this respect.

[Narwhal72]

Lip brooding is not the same as mouthbrooding. The eggs are carried on the underside of the lips posterior to the mouth. No cave wall or hard surface for them to press on.

[TwoTankAmin]

TY Narwhal- Googling lip brooding seems to return only information on mouth brooding, obviously not the same thing, which is why I asked. I just learned something new

But, then my next question is, what might be the cause of snubbing in such fish?

[Narwhal72]

I think there might be multiple reasons.

Your post got me thinking and last night I went down and took a good look at some Loricaria sp. Atabapo that I had been growing up and compared them to the pictures in the Cat E Log. The fish I have definitely are developing a snub nose. They didn't have it when I got them last year but now there is no doubt.

It may be that certain riverine species may develop snub nose simply because they are rubbing against the walls of the aquarium (something that would not happen in nature). Kind of like how certain fish can't be kept in square containers but do well in round ones.

Water quality doesn't seem to be the issue as I raise numerous Sturisoma, Hemiloricaria, Peckoltia, Ancistrus, Baryancistrus, Hypancistrus, Panaque, and Panaqolus in this system without issue for years.

Diet doesn't seem to be lacking (live blackworms, frozen bloodworms, various Repashy, Aqueon disks and pellets) either.


I plan on moving these fish to a larger tank eventually for spawning. Maybe if I get enough fry I can do some controlled experiments to see if tank size and shape affects snub nose.
Andy

[bekateen]

Andy, can you get some photos of these snub nosed sp. Atabapo?

Thanks, Eric

[Narwhal72]

I will shoot some tonight but I am a terrible photographer.

[bekateen]

I will shoot some tonight but I am a terrible photographer.

Aw, come on. Didn't anyone teach you to blame the camera for bad photos?

[pleconut]

Do it using a smartphone at least you can blame it on that!

[CharlieM9]

I think there might be multiple reasons.

Your post got me thinking and last night I went down and took a good look at some Loricaria sp. Atabapo that I had been growing up and compared them to the pictures in the Cat E Log. The fish I have definitely are developing a snub nose. They didn't have it when I got them last year but now there is no doubt.

It may be that certain riverine species may develop snub nose simply because they are rubbing against the walls of the aquarium (something that would not happen in nature). Kind of like how certain fish can't be kept in square containers but do well in round ones.

Water quality doesn't seem to be the issue as I raise numerous Sturisoma, Hemiloricaria, Peckoltia, Ancistrus, Baryancistrus, Hypancistrus, Panaque, and Panaqolus in this system without issue for years.

Andy

Andy,

Anyone know if the L018 pic in the aqua log is from a true wildcaught snubnose? Or if it possibly developed after being in a tank? Page 43.....

[Narwhal72]

I will have to check that tonight. I don't have my copy at work.
I snapped some pics last night but they weren't cooperating. They were all sitting either behind a piece of driftwood or right up against the front of the tank with their noses below the frame.

On the plus side I did get some nice shots of baby Corydoras similis who were cooperating.

[Janne]

Long time since I replied here but I try to check from time to time interesting topics.

Yes, there are snub nosed pleco's in the wild, we receive from time to time few individuals that are snub nosed, can be Hypancistrus, Spectracanthicus or other genus/species, I would not say it's common but does occur, why we maybe not see more of them can be natural selection, they have more difficulties to survive in their environment.
When I was breeding I never saw a snub nosed larvae but I saw snub nosed fry just before or after the yolk sac was consumed, never saw a normal fry develop snub nose later when get older, I still believe it's a disorder of the cell development... similar as croaked fins (special the pectorals) that is more common at least by my experience.

Janne