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Hi folks, I strongly suspect my ABNs have spawned, if so for me a first pleco breeding experience, and also for this pair, the female, had been appearing to be gravid for the last week, after some conditioning, On friday the male and female were playing around a cave, the male up until this time wasn't even appearing to be even interested in the caves, or in the female. I'd been cycling another tank for the pair, not expecting this so soon.
I started with what I was told to be a trio, 1m 2 f, but one had recently had a rapid bristle growth spurt, the pair I intended to keep and move to the (still cycling, but once ready) new tank. Then to rehome the surplus male, he's now chasing the female in the same way the first one was on friday. The male I that think she's has spawned with is now tucked in a cave fanning, I added some food to the tank to see if he'd leave the cave, if there's no eggs in there, he would, I assume, leave it to eat, he's not left the cave at all and still fanning away. However he has also done a quite a lot of digging around the cave and why now i can't see all the way to the back of it. So I'm just going to have to wait until I see any eggs or fry movement in the cave.
My main concern is if there's a risk this second male could harm the fanning male? The other tank mates are a few lemon tetras and a Para pleco, L075 that has also not left the vicinity of the fanning males cave, since i discovered this very early today, It's a large tank they are in in, i can provide the female and second male ABN, some caves at the other end of the tank, as I also suspect their intention is to spawn, but without causing any disruption to the male fanning his cave. Any advice as to how i can address the concerns regarding the second male ABN? Another question is can the Para pleco pose a threat?

Hi Teresa,

Hopefully you're correct, and if so, congratulations!

As far as the other male, I wouldn't worry about him as long as you have more caves - if you have only one cave, then yes the males might fight over it, but so likely with several caves. The fish I don't know about is your para pleco and what it will do. I don't think it will want the eggs (especially if it's well fed), but your male should defend his eggs if he has them.

Keep in mind that first-time dads are notorious for screwing up their first egg clutch, often by kicking it out of their cave, so watch for loose eggs and be ready to pick them out (e.g., with a turkey baster) and put them in an aerated fry net of some kind.

Cheers, Eric

Thanks, i do have plenty of caves, can add some more so the male ABN has got a better chance of being left alone. As for the Para hes been right outside and resting on the side of the cave but he can't get in the cave. The other male and female still chasing each other in and out of a natural hole in the wood, i think this will become a spawning cave, but it is unlikely eggs will stay in because of its slightly vertical position with substrate below.

Hi, if you have room I'd consider getting at least 1 more female, 2 idealy, and then you can keep the second male and have 3 females for 2 males to choose from. I've also got a male currently in a cave where he hasn't emerged for 4 days so far, so I think he has young, although I can't see in at mo because he's blocking my view!! Hope yours go really well

I have been on the lookout for 1 more female but finding adults hasn't been easy. Also wasn't looking to have more than 2 females as don't want to end up with all the offspring. Good luck with your BNs

pleconut wrote:Also wasn't looking to have more than 2 females as don't want to end up with all the offspring.

Wise. I would warn the same point - In just four months, I got between 300-400 fry from just ONE pair last year; I'm still getting rid of fry. I removed the spawning cave to make them stop for a while. I think I'll be ready to let them spawn again sometime next year.

Cheers, Eric

I was thinking of keeping the second male in another tank so the first gets a break, this morning second male in a cave with the female waiting on the side.

Im not sure now there's been a spawn, but I've just returned home to discover both male ABNs fighting, quite viciously in my opinion, with the characteristic hooks within the gills. They are in a large tank, a 4ft to be exact, the males both have numerous caves each provided at each end of the tank sheltered by bogwood, though the wood i thought a possible spawning site for the female and second male is the one where the first males cave is under, but the female mostly hangs out nearer to the first males cave he's been fanning for 4 days, the second male for three, up until I discovered the fighting. I'm certainly not wanting them to injure each other, first one is bigger has more bristles and potentially a good dad so if i was to keep only one he would be my choice of the two. While writing this post i felt had to intervene in another nasty fight, so i will now take the second male to the LFS i work at. I've also read the shanes world article i can't remember which one exactly it was where it says removing a second male, may induce a spawn.

2nd male is now at LFS, before I left, and within minutes the 1st male was back in his cave fanning away again, (so it seems he's got good dad potential), this is despite me needing to intervene in the fighting, and remove the second male from the tank, it could have been a raid on the nest by the second male, and the first was simply defending his cave, so possibly there is eggs in there, I can only guess, is this possible?

Oh my goodness!!! Im a pleco mum!!!! , well actually the female is. But there is some problems, the eggs have been kicked out the cave, some are bad but some are good in the centre of the clump they are in, ive got them in a net breeder with an airstone under to keep them aerated. But i really need some advice, @bekateen or anyone else any tips on how i separate the bad ones from the good.

pleconut wrote:Oh my goodness!!! Im a pleco mum!!!! ... some are bad but some are good in the centre of the clump they are in... any tips on how i separate the bad ones from the good.

Congratulations! What's the old tradition, cigars for everyone? (maybe just algae wafers will suffice, but I don't know if I'll like them)

People use different methods to separate good from bad eggs. Personally, I used a small eyedropper to suck the bad eggs out of the clump. If the bad eggs are buried inside the clump, you can sometimes tease them apart from the good eggs using a blunt probe (if you don't have anything like that, I suggest using sand paper to smooth and round off the end of a bamboo shish-kebob skewer as a relatively safe alternative - you just don't want to puncture the good eggs with it).

Don't panic, even if you lose all the eggs. As so many people have experienced, it's not uncommon for the first clutch of eggs to be lost. But the fact that the animals have now spawned once almost always means they'll do it again, and probably soon. And in my experience with ABNs, that's usually within 3 weeks if the animals are well conditions.

Cheers, Eric

Thanks, the eggs i guess were laid Saturday or Sunday, but they could belong to the second male, he was in a bit of distress still flaring his gills, when i returned to the LFS to get the breeding net (just in case). Im not sure that the eggs are bad, they appear to be clear but yellow coloured, large, I'll get a pic in a minute, i would have thought I'd be seeing fry in them by now. But then i can't be sure who's the dad. Lol.

pleconut wrote:Thanks, the eggs i guess were laid Saturday or Sunday, but they could belong to the second male, ... But then i can't be sure who's the dad. Lol.

In that case, it might be a good idea to go back and get your second male back. Not a good idea to get rid of a male if he might be the breeder. More than likely, it won't matter because ABNs are rather "active" in regards to spawning. So I suspect that either male will be more than eager to be a dad. But I can imagine the occasional "dud" male and in that case you might want to wait to find out. Especially since your two males were tussling over the cave, and now the eggs are rejected, who knows if the male you saved was the real dad who kicked his own eggs out of the cave because he was stressed, or if the male you saved was an invader who kicked the eggs out because they weren't his own.

In my experience, it took 5 days for eggs to hatch. So it can be a while before the babies are swimming about. And when my plecos have rejected eggs, it was usually in the first 24-48 hours of egg-laying.

Cheers, Eric

Even if you don't *rescue* all the eggs, don't despair. I have a so-far-dud dad and all his spawns have been kicked out and I've had numerous babies hatch out and survive all by themselves. (I have so many BN babies now that I don't try to rescue them) Yes, a lot of the eggs get eaten by other BNs in the tank, as well as assassin snails, but the number of babies that have made it is pretty high. (However, this is a 45g tank with a lot of hiding places.)

Here's some pics of the egg clutch in the breeder net with airstones underneath, when exactly will fry begin to show? Do they appear to be viable? If male#1, still fanning his cave is the dad, the eggs are 4/5 days old, if male #2 is they are very possibly less than 2/3 days old. There's quite a few for a first time spawn, i still suspect male#1is the dad. As by time the female got to male#2 i wouldn't think she would have this many left. I remember that I lifted male #2out of the tank in his cave when i took him to LFS, but still the eggs could have been kicked out beforehand.

But even if they are not viable, infertile, whatever...They're off again!

That's BNs for you! Good luck this time
I never saw spawning at all with mine - just zillions of fry!

I was aware i could become over run with ABN fry, the dad, if male#1 is, and i still strongly suspect this to be the case, the fact he chasing her now says it all, he was doing a really great job until the misbehaving male#2 took his girl, and when not successful tried to take his babies also. However its the much needed practice i will need if the L397s start sometime.

Im still trying to establish if some of these eggs, might be viable, as i cannot ascertain how old they are, this is depending on which male is the dad, and it means a difference how old the eggs actually are, they are still tumbling around in the net. I can give a more detailed description of the clutch, the pics aren't good. The ones on the outside are transparent and a very pale yellow, there's nothing developing inside them, ive ben told these will disolve and come away if infertile and to remove any traces with a net. There's no fungus on any. But the ones in the centre of the clutch are a much darker yellow, more yolky, and not transparent so there is maybe something developing. So my question is to those that have experiences of BN abandoned eggs, when do the fry start to show development inside the eggs?

Takes about 5-7 days for mine to hatch. I normally leave them in their cave for 10-14 days from spawn, so by that point the male has done the hard part and all I have to do is feed the babies. I have tried both ways and have found that it just makes a lot more sense to let nature do its thing rather than interfering. I'm busy, I'm guessing your probably busy, as almost everyone in the world is, so getting a little help from the male cant hurt. If you are dead set on removing them then unless he kicks em then wait till like day 5-7 when they're about ready to hatch and the risk of fungus is least.

Te outer ones do not look viable however the inner ones could be. Its hard to tell from the picture.

Thanks for the replies. I think i will keep them in the net, see what happens, if it passes the point they have obviously failed, i will wait for them to spawn and try again.

One more thing I noticed. Regarding the para pleco, I'm fairly certain it's a male. It's just something I'd observed, most breeding set ups are dedicated to what's being bred. But I would be interested to find out if this cross species pleco behaviour has ever been witnessed . Until the fighting started the para had been resting on the side of male#1 cave even though he had his own cave before he was always there. Once the fight started he left the scene.

The male that is remaining today, has been chasing the female about on the wood above his cave, he goes alongside her flicks her with his tail she does the same back. She is still looking plump in the middle. Some good feeding should get the pair in good condition then at some point they will very likely spawn again. Regarding the eggs, some still appear viable, though i can't yet see anything developing in the ones in the centre of the clutch. The ones on the outside are now degrading.

With my P. maccus eggs, the bad eggs disintegrated within a day after I found them. I would imagine that if you have bad eggs or unfertilized eggs, they will be evident very quickly.

Thanks for the information Eric, the eggs on the outside of the clutch are not all complete, the shells of some are slightly damaged, but still attached to the clutch. They were, when I first discovered them, being picked at by the tetras, so this is probably what caused damage to the eggs on the outside. No sign of degrading of any in the centre those on the outside still remain mostly intact though transparent, despite some damage. The ones at the centre are complete and yolky, the fact you've said that the rejected ones from your clown plecos completely dissolved within 24 hrs, and you would have been keeping a close eye on things, according to your account of the events in your thread, gives me some hope that I could yet have some fry, I just can't see any in the eggs.

The eggs on the outside have almost all come away now, nearly leaving only the darker yellow non transparent ones that were in the centre of the clutch. I've gently syphoned out the separated remains with some airline tubing, leaving what appears to be healthy viable eggs. Still in the net with the air stones underneath, it was suggested that those on the outside with the broken shells may have hatched, when i made some enquiries about purchasing an egg tumbler. I've looked in the caves and in the tank and haven't found any wrigglers.

Most of the eggs have now disolved, but I've had to transfer the remainder into a plastic breeding trap, with the airstones in place, as the other fish had been picking at them overnight as they were stuck to the side of the net in more of a string than a clump when i checked this morning only about 3 or 4 are possibly viable, but no fry can been seen in them. The pair still chasing and flicking eachother with their tails, will go in their own tank in the next few days. Within a couple of weeks i hope they will spawn again. Hopefully next time dad will do a better job, He did really well four days fanning and then defending his cave, considering the other male. I think the eggs were kicked out during the fighting. Hoping next time this won't happen, but if so I can be better prepared for next time if i need to raise any eggs again.

1 egg left Hopefully next time will be better.

Trust me. Perhaps not the actual "next" time, but sooner or later it will work. And each time the female lays eggs, remember she is older over time and more mature - egg count will rise too. My first ABN spawn was only about 50 eggs, and within 2 months I was getting over 200 eggs per spawn.