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Hi everybody,

I'm making new plans for one of my aquariums, but I'm not sure if what I have in mind is a good idea. I hope you can/will give my your expert opinion on this.

I have an aquarium which is 63 liter and 61x31x42 cm or app. 17 gallon and 24x12x16 inch, that is now home to a group of baby Corydoras pygmaeus. In a few weeks they'll all be old enough to go to their new home and since I don't expect any more baby cory's (the parents moved to my community aquarium with other fish that really like cory eggs) the aquarium will be empty soon.

I'm discovering more and more that Loricariidae are by far my favorite fish, so I love to keep some more of these great little guys. So my question is; is it possible to house a small group (3 or 4 individuals) of a small species (L129, L340 or L104/L162) in this aquarium (by themselves) and maybe try to breed with them in the future?

I've read some posts that this size aquarium is used as a breeding tank, but I'm not sure if this means that the fish are living permanently in this aquarium or if they are moved there to breed and normally live in a bigger aquarium. My concern is that most species descriptions say that the fish are some what territorial, so I don't know if 60cm will be big enough to keep a few of them.

So is a good idea or is it better to use this aquarium for something else?


Thank you very much for your advice!

Hi MarlonnekeW,

The aquarium you're describing (24x12x16) is sold in America as a standard size "20 gallon high" tank. I'm currently keeping seven clown plecos (Panaqolus maccus, L104) in a species-only 15 gallon tank with the same base as your tank (24x12x12). These clowns have been quite busy spawning lately, so I think the answer to your question is yes, that will work. And yes, my tank is their permanent home, not a temporary one.

I have to admit though that I don't have experience with the other species you mentioned. So maybe this wouldn't work with other spp., but clowns would be fine. Just make sure you provide them lots of caves and hiding places.

Cheers, Eric

EDIT: You can see a photo of my tank in this forum post: Re: Frozen vegetables for clown plecos?. Shane gave me lots of good tips for setting up the tank and it works well for L104.

That's about the size of what we call a 20 high here in the states.

Although generally a longer and lower aquarium is better for loricarids (they don't need height) it should be fine for keeping and breeding a small breeding group. I routinely breed small loricarids in tanks with the same footprint.

I would suggest 1M and 2-3 females if you can find that ratio. Sometimes it helps to have a second male. Just provide plenty of caves.

Andy

Thank you for the quick responses!! I'll probably be smiling for the rest of the day, now I know that my plan is possible ;).

I really like the Panaqolus maccus, so that would be a great option (@Eric, I really like your aquarium. Very clever creating different levels with caves like this). The 'only' problem is that it's not easy to find them around here, unlike the L129 and L340. So that will be somewhat of a challenge.

What would be the best substrate to use? At the moment I have a black sand (0,4-0,8mm). I'm having some trouble with it, so I will probably replace it before I'll get the new fish, just to be sure. Would this sand be the best choice or would you recommend using rounded gravel?

I have been changing my tanks over to a very white industrial quartz sand. I really like the color and it's very inexpensive. You can find it in building materials stores.

For plecos, I am sure to lay some pieces of slate on top the sand to sit the pleco caves on so they don't become buried in the sand.

Andy

MarlonnekeW wrote:Very clever creating different levels with caves like this

Hi MarlonnekeW,

Thanks. Yeah, I liked it too when I set it up. But I have to admit that the fish may not think likewise ... So far NONE of the adult clowns has taken up residence in any of the higher caves. I've seen other people's tank photos in which they have 2 layers of caves when they use the square slate caves, and those seem to get used. But my clowns seem to be content with the caves at ground level. Maybe it's because I have more ground-level caves than I have males. I have three males and four females in this tank. There are five ground-level caves and a few higher level caves. The males have all staked out claims on the ground-level caves, and the females all loiter around the mouths of the males' caves. I rarely see the females in a cave by themselves.

About sand or gravel, by coincidence I have a very small-grain rounded gravel in my clown pleco tank. But in almost all my other tanks I use standard play sand. I've read elsewhere that some brands of this may raise the pH of your water. My tank has a pH in the mid 7 range. Obviously the clowns don't seem to mind since they are spawning so much. But I don't know about the other species being considered in this thread. If they like a more acidic pH, you'd need to be careful about that.

Cheers, Eric

Narwhal72 wrote:For plecos, I am sure to lay some pieces of slate on top the sand to sit the pleco caves on so they don't become buried in the sand.

Good advice. In a similar fashion, in my tank I placed a rounded river stone underneath the each cave at its opening, so that the cave sticks up slightly into the water at its entrance, and it slants downward toward the back of the cave; in fact, the back, closed end of some of my caves is buried slightly in the gravel (which is only about 1/2 inch deep). My hope is that the elevated cave opening helps to keep the eggs towards the back of the cave, so it's more difficult for the male to accidentally sweep the eggs out of the cave and onto the gravel. But if you read my spawning thread, you'll see that so far two of my males aren't very good at holding their eggs in their caves.

Cheers, Eric

For me, one of the things I really love about these fish is that they have a mind of their own. I already have a female Ancistrus sp.4/False L144 and soon after I got her, I bought her a breeding cave to give her a hiding spot. She was absolutely not interested in it. A while later I was considering adding a pair of Apistogramma Borelli to the aquarium so I added a Cichlid cave. She immediately called it her own. She doesn't go into the cave very often, but the top of the cave has become her favorite spot to hang out. For me, this was a good reason not to add the Apisto's; I will let her have her own spot.
After that, I tried a smaller cave for Loricariidae of the same material and color as the Cichlid cave and placed it in the same way in the aquarium (under the 'branches' of a piece of spiderwood) but she still prefers the Cichlid cave.

The positive thing is that I already have multiple caves in different sizes for the new aquarium ;).

About the sand; I have this sand in all of my aquariums. The funny thing is that in my two other aquariums I used a mix of black and brown sand (it should be the same product with only a different color). I never had any problems and it's very easy to clean. With this aquarium, I used only black and after only a few months I started to have problems with it. I hope by mixing the two colors up again, it will be better.
My ph is mostly around 7, but the last time I checked, it was a bit lower, so luckily I don't think this sand will raise the ph-level.

Thank you for the tips about the slate and stones under the caves. That really makes sense, but I don't think I would have thought about that myself.

L340 might be worth a shot. L129 might get a little too big. Still if you are going to buy grown up individuals and you are able to sex them properly you might be able to go for 1M and 1-2F on the L129 as well. But if you go for youngsters or can't sex them, it might be troublesome to end up with 3 grown up males in such a small tank later on, especially if your going to add some more females afterwards to get a spawning group.

L340 and L129, will be needing higher temps though. 28°C or higher is usually needed to have them grow up properly and for spawning as well.
While P. Maccus will be fine with 26°C. If you are cost sensitive, take this into consideration as well.

I also think creating a lot of surface, like Eric did with his multiple layers of caves is very important. Even if they don't necessarily occupy it during day time (most plecos will prefer a cave underneath some wood or stone with shadow on the caves entrance - they don't like caves exposed to direct illumination) they still might use it during night time and it offers some refugee for weaker individuals. With that much surface and hiding places you might even be able to keep the youngsters inside the parents tank (though you might have less survivors, it's still very suitable for that). So going for a setup similar to Eric's is very recommendable. I would use caves with one opening on the bottom layer (for the males) and caves with 2 openings on the upper layer to enable females or weaker individuals to flee from stronger intruders. Females are not very likely to go into a cave with 1 opening because they hate getting trapped. 2 openings -> way better for them.

Using plants is not needed with most plecos, still I would prefer to have some Anubias and Echinodorus in there. But that's really up to you.

keep us updated on your new tank and the choices you're going to make!
Cheers Johannes.

Hi all,

Jobro wrote:I also think creating a lot of surface, like Eric did with his multiple layers of caves is very important. Even if they don't necessarily occupy it during day time (most plecos will prefer a cave underneath some wood or stone with shadow on the caves entrance - they don't like caves exposed to direct illumination) they still might use it during night time and it offers some refugee for weaker individuals. With that much surface and hiding places you might even be able to keep the youngsters inside the parents tank (though you might have less survivors, it's still very suitable for that). So going for a setup similar to Eric's is very recommendable. I would use caves with one opening on the bottom layer (for the males) and caves with 2 openings on the upper layer to enable females or weaker individuals to flee from stronger intruders. Females are not very likely to go into a cave with 1 opening because they hate getting trapped. 2 openings -> way better for them.

Sounds like good advice. I think that most fish are happier when they have more cover and feel more secure.

Jobro wrote:

L340

might be worth a shot.

L129

might get a little too big.

Are they different sizes? I'd assumed that they were the same size, and both possibly both

Hypancistrus debilittera

?

cheers Darrel

Thank your very much for all the info. This really helps ;).

The last couple of days I checked at a lot of stocklists of LFS's, but the P. Maccus is very hard to find around here, so I'm happy to have an alternative. I know that it will give me no guaranties of different 'bloodlines', but if it's possible, I would like to try to buy a mixed group from different stores. With the L340, this will be a lot easier. Would it be possible to start with one or two and add the others (a few days) later or is it better to introduce the whole group to the aquarium at once to avoid territorial issues?

At the moment there are still quite a few baby cory's in the aquarium (and selling them isn't going as quickly as I hoped) so I have to be patient for a while, but I'm really looking forward to starting with the new set-up.

MarlonnekeW wrote:Would it be possible to start with one or two and add the others (a few days) later or is it better to introduce the whole group to the aquarium at once to avoid territorial issues?

In my experience, territoriality when more are added later is not a problem IF you do it in this order:

1. Remove the resident individuals
2. Completely disassemble the tank and rearrange the furniture inside (logs, caves, rocks, etc.)
3. Add the fish back all at once - residents and new individuals.

By rearranging the furniture, it confuses the old residents when they are replaced so that they don't realize that they own the place. By adding all the fish in at once to the new environment, they all are coming in on an equal level of confusion. My only concern at this point is that if the residents are much larger than the new additions, you still run the risk of some aggression.

By getting some fish at a later date from a different source, I agree that it increases your chance of getting fish from different genetic stocks. That said, the other concern about adding fish at a later date is the introduction of disease. So quarantine the new arrivals properly to ensure they are healthy first.

Too bad we're not closer, because I have a bunch of baby maccus sitting around, if you wanted to start with juveniles.

Cheers, Eric

I don't want to buy them weeks or months apart. It's more 1 or 2 at first and then the other(s) the next day or a few days later. My plan is to look around and visit some shops, ask about their supplier and them make a 'buying plan'. But it's still good to know what to do if I can't buy them all the same week.

dw1305 wrote: Are they different sizes? I'd assumed that they were the same size, and both possibly both

Hypancistrus debilittera

?
cheers Darrel

As far is I know there are some differences like number of teeth and colouration. You are right, i checked my sources, some said L129 up to 12cm. Whereas others say around 8cm. Maybe there was some giant wild caught male with 12cm once. But most Aquarium bred are usually smaller. So you should be fine with L129 as well.

MarlonnekeW wrote:I don't want to buy them weeks or months apart. It's more 1 or 2 at first and then the other(s) the next day or a few days later. My plan is to look around and visit some shops, ask about their supplier and them make a 'buying plan'. But it's still good to know what to do if I can't buy them all the same week.

I don't think you will have any trouble with adding some fish 1-5 days later. Some fighting is going to happen anyway. Dominant males will always try to occupy the best available cave. Not like you or me can do anything about this.

Size is one thing (you see so many different numbers. According to the Cat-elog the L129 with 70mm sl would even be smaller than the L340 with 80mm sl, but other websites say the opposite) .
What I think is also very important, is their temperament. A little bit bigger fish, that is not very territorial would probably work a lot better than a smaller, very territorial fish. If they fight in a 'gentle' way, that's no problem, but I've read some stories about for example Ancistrus males, that will fight until one of them dies. That's absolutely not what I want.

Before I get them, I probably also have to 'study' a lot on the differences between the L129 and the L340, to avoid a mixed group and possibly cross-breeding and the difference between males and females. So I still have a lot more homework to do ;).

When trying to get a group, don't even try going for 1male and 2females, better go for 3 females. Chances are very high you will still end up with more males than females. Unless those plecos are already gravid and in very good condition. But youngsters and wild caught fish are usually very very hard to tell apart.

I aimed for 1 male and 4 females with wild caught L260s and ended up with at least 4 males xD
Later I found a different importer that sexed them by looking at their vents, I trusted him and now it looks like I got at least 2 more females (out of 3 new ones).
But going by odontal growth or bodyshape is really tough when the plecos are not yet fully mature or in no good condition. That's at least what I had to learn...

Even if you end up with 3 females it's usually very easy to get an obvious 100% male rather than getting a 100% female. Getting females is a gamble. So chances are better if you aim for 3 females from the start rather than just 1 or 2.

Good luck picking your plecos ;) don't get frustrated if you can't tell them apart on first sight. take your time. go to different shops. look at all of them. don't trust the shopkeeper too much. Stay patient.

If you're confident you can resell some of them later on, go for more than your desired number initially, after some weeks pick out the genders you want and resell the rest of them.

Thanks for the advise.
The fact that it's so difficult to tell them apart really makes it a challenge, but also very interesting.

I already have a bit of experience of this with my Ancistrus claro. I was hoping for a pair, but they turned out to be both female. In the end, I'm pretty happy with this result, because I was looking for another L-number to keep with my female Ancistrus sp 4/False L144 and my claro's will be great for this (They need the same diet, waterparameters etc. and have the same temperament, so I don't have to worry that one will keep the other from for example feeding). So for now, all my L-numbers are girls.
If this will continue with the new fish, that will be great, but I'll probably end up with all males now ;).

It was the challenge of sexing that led me to end up with 7 clowns, instead of 3-5. I suspected that my first was a big female. The next two I bought were too young to sex confidently, but I tried to pick 1 M and 1 F. If you read my thread about sexing clown plecos (http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... =5&t=41320), you'll see that those first three were accurately diagnosed by others as 2M and 1F, even though I initially thought the opposite. But the males must have been too young or not in great condition, because no spawning occurred. So I added another and I tried to get a F and I succeeded. But still no spawning, and I was insecure about one of the males' gender, so I bought 3 more which I knew were mature and I purposefully picked 2M and 1F. Thus seven. And finally spawning occurred, and with a fury.

Hopefully you don't need to buy so many.

Cheers, Eric

Well, that's maybe a good excuse to get a bigger aquarium in the future ;).

bekateen wrote:

MarlonnekeW wrote:Very clever creating different levels with caves like this

Hi MarlonnekeW,

Thanks. Yeah, I liked it too when I set it up. But I have to admit that the fish may not think likewise ... So far NONE of the adult clowns has taken up residence in any of the higher caves. I've seen other people's tank photos in which they have 2 layers of caves when they use the square slate caves, and those seem to get used. But my clowns seem to be content with the caves at ground level. Maybe it's because I have more ground-level caves than I have males.

I guess I spoke too soon. Now one of my male clown plecos (the good dad in my spawning thread, Sexing Panaqolus maccus? Spawning at last!) has occupied the highest cave in the tank for several days now. I don't known if this is a long term choice or temporary. But in the meantime, one of the females has moved into his old abandoned cave on the ground level. I wonder if any females will find him and spawn in that cave. Only time will tell.

Cheers, Eric

Thanks for the update! That's good to know.

Unfortunately, my plan has come to a standstill. I'm having a hard time selling my Corydoras pygmaeus offspring, so they are still in the aquarium and as long as they are, I cannot start 'redecorating'. I'm also having big problems with the adult cory's in my other aquarium. Two of them have died last week. They had a big red spot (looked like an internal bleeding) on their abdomen. I've tried to treat it with anti-bacterial medication. Today I discovered that one of the other cory's has a big white 'wound' on it's nose. I'm hoping that this is some kind of injury and it will heal on it's own, but I'm really worried that it's related to the dead of the other cory's and that it is some kind of illness.

So hopefully I can start soon with my breeding aquarium, because I can really use a positive aquarium project at the moment.

Sorry to hear that. I've never found myself to have much success at treating diseases, but in my experience red areas on the body are usually signs of bacterial infections and are often linked to water quality and stress issues. You can try antibiotics, but if you don't correct the underlying problem then you probably won't save the fish. The big white wound sounds like a fungal issue, but without pictures and more information, it would be difficult to conclude that with confidence.

As to the baby pygmaeus, how are you trying to sell them and for what price? How big are they, relative to adult size? Myself, I've decided rather subjectively to avoid selling my cory offspring on the retail market (for "full price" to other people) and instead I trade them in for store credit at any of several LFS which accept locally bred fish. I expect to get about 1/3 the value of the fish in store credit from most of the stores; only one store gives me cash, but they don't give me the same amount of money as the others do in credit. As for body size, if these babies aren't as big as the fish you see in the stores for sale normally, then the LFS won't want them either.

That said, why can't you redecorate while still owning the babies? Can you temporarily remove the babies, redecorate the tanks and then reintroduce the babies back into the tank? Granted, the habitat might not be optimal for the babies (e.g., clown plecos don't need much if any plants in their tanks, but many corys seem to like them), but they would probably still enjoy the ability to swim in-and-out of the wood crags... Maybe that's not the greatest idea, but it is an option, IMHO.

Regardless of what you chose to do, good luck. Nobody likes to deal with a series of "bad news" events, one after another. Hopefully you have some good fortune soon.

Cheers, Eric

The problem with the disease started about 2 months ago, right after I added a school of Hypessobrycon roseus/yellow phantom tetra's. Since then I had sick fish with all kinds of different symptoms. More info an some pictures are in this threat http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... 34#p289034

Before I added the tetra's, I never had any problems. I constantly monitor the water quality and that's very stable as well. The only thing that has happened, is that I discovered three dragonfly larva in my aquarium (probably came in with one of the plants), but I can't see how they could be responsible for all of these problems. Of course I removed them right away (that was about 3/4 weeks ago) and since then I check my aquarium multiple times a day (also when the lights are out with a little flash light) but I haven't found any more larva.
I treated the aquarium twice with Sera Baktopur (the first time a few weeks ago, and the second time last Monday and Wednesday, after I discovered the second dead cory). I'm not sure if this helps.

I'm trying to sell the baby cory's through a very popular website here in The Netherlands. If you translate it, it's called 'marketplace'. From experience I know it may take a while and I just have to be patient. I was hoping that people would be more interested in de pygmaeus, because almost all the fish they sell in stores around here are wild-caught. If you don't want that, this website is one of the few places you can find captive bred corydoras pygmaeus. There is one store in my area that will buy fish in these kind of situations, but lately I've seen a lot of dead fish there and I don't want my little guys to end up like that.
So I'll just have to be a bit more patient.

As to the redecorating; I'm not sure if the substrate is still ok, so to avoid any problems, it's probably best to renew it before I add new fish. From experience I know that new substrate could lead to nitrite problems, therefore I think it's better to wait until the aquarium is completely empty, do a big clean-up and then leave it for 2 or 3 weeks to settle before adding new fish.

Edit: a small update. This morning I found another dead cory. I couldn't see any visible signs of illness. I've noticed that the fish that die are all relatively large (maybe all females?). This was not the fish that had the wound on it's nose. This one is still alive, but it's very lethargic, so I'll probably put it out of it's misery soon.
Here is a picture how the wound looks like this morning

MarlonnekeW wrote: I really like the Panaqolus maccus, so that would be a great option (@Eric, I really like your aquarium. Very clever creating different levels with caves like this). The 'only' problem is that it's not easy to find them around here, unlike the L129 and L340. So that will be somewhat of a challenge.

Really, Panaque Maccus is easy to buy...everywhere. 90% Of the time they are offered as Peckoltia Vittata. They are also the least expensive and stay the smallest, which would be ideal for your small tank. I bet you can find Panaque Maccus in every LFS

jac wrote:90% Of the time they are offered as Peckoltia Vittata.

I wish that were true around here. Almost ever store near me in Central California will have clown plecos once in a while. But I've never seen vittata in any stores around me in this region. And as much as I like my little clowns, I think vittata has a more vibrant and interesting body coloration. Oh well.

EDIT: Oops, I read that the other way around. I meant that I wish vittata were offered under the name clown pleco around here. LOL. Never mind...

At least one shop has the Peckoltia vittata, but what if this is really a vittata and not a P. Maccus? I really like them, but they are larger then the P. Maccus and probably too large for a group in a 60cm aquarium.

MarlonnekeW wrote:At least one shop has the Peckoltia vittata, but what if this is really a vittata and not a P. Maccus? I really like them, but they are larger then the P. Maccus and probably too large for a group in a 60cm aquarium.

If I were buying these, I wouldn't be too concerned about the size difference. According to the CLOGs, vittata's max size is only 1.5 cm longer than maccus. I don't know how aggressive or territorial vittata is, but my maccus get along fine, even with a few extra babies in their tank.

I realize that compared to some hobbyists, I may have a habit of overcrowding my tanks (I have 7 maccus in a 15 gallon tank). But honestly, i wouldn't think twice about putting 4-6 vittata in your 20 gallon tank.

But if you are still worried, you should be able to inspect them and tell the two species apart.

Sorry, but i really don't know what to recommend about your Corys.

Cheers, Eric

I guess the best thing to do is visit a few shops and take a good look what it is they are selling (maybe even take a picture and use that to identify which species it is).

As to the problem with the cory's: I've already sort of came to the conclusion that this is not a straight forward situation with a clear symptoms of a specific illness and that it is very hard to determine what causes it. What I'm afraid of, is that it might be something like fish TB, because of all the different symptoms. I really hope that that's not the case.

Just take a snap shot of the fish and put them up here or send the pictures in a privat message
If you look on wholesale price lists (not everybody can do that..) all fish are labeled Peckoltia....even the zebra's The shop just copy's the name and that's how you get the name mix up...

Thank you for the offer!! I will do that, as soon as I have visited a store.