Males not fertilising eggs, interesting Facebook chat

[jac]

Just a question I've been wanting to know the answer to for a while now after one of my breeding groups keeps mucking up their spawns for over a year.. Females get trapped, she lays her eggs and the males (both of them) fan the eggs, all just like normal. The problem is they are not fertilized!! The tank and water is part of a large breeding set up which contains about 1500L of water and is filtered by a large biological filter. There are several other breeding groups in the same system and they are breeding just fine. The caves are different sizes, the ones they are using are big enough. The males are quite fat, could this be a reason?? Could they be getting to old?? Any suggestions??

[CharlieM9]

Jac, you probably have already thought of this, but is it possible they may need different water parameters than what the rest of the system is? I know plecos are ablet to spawn in a pretty wide range of water types so maybe just grabbing at straws....

[bekateen]

Hi Jac,
What species are we talking about?
Cheers, Eric

[jac]

It's affecting my Zombie pleco (L70). I've had these for at least 5 years and spawned them for about 3 years in the same system. Because the fry don't sell in Holland I stopped breeding them, separated them. Last year I put them together again but they keep mucking up their spawns

[CharlieM9]

Jac, that is a shame, as that is a species I would like to get a hold of over here in the USA!!!

[bekateen]

Jac,
I suppose it goes without saying that your problem doesn't have an obvious cause and solution, or else you, with your experience and expertise, would have already figured it out. And if not you, then one of the other experienced pleco breeders here on PC would have. And you seem very assured that it is not a water quality issue, which seems to be an obvious starting point.

Therefore, I'm trying to imagine other, less obvious (and less likely) causes. So to this purpose, I'm going to ask some questions, just to rule out these very unlikely potential causes (these questions are listed in a random order; I don't mean to suggest any sence of priority or likelihood in this list):

1. Even though the water parameters are normal now, do you know if there were any temporary disturbances in water quality at some time in the past? Is it possible that your zombies were exposed to a past change in water chemistry which caused reduced fertility or sterility? Although personally I haven't seen it happen, I've heard that this is a possibility for some fish that are sensitive to water chemistry.
2. Since you last successfully spawned these fish, have you treated them with any drugs or medications which could have affected fertility? Again, I have no first-hand experience with this, but I've heard it's possible.
3. Are the caves you're using now the same kind as (or very similar to) the caves you used successfully with this species in the past? Is it possible that the sizes and shapes of these caves (when considering the sizes of your zombies) are allowing too much water flow into the caves during the time of fertilization, so that the sperm are flushed out of the cave too quickly before fertilization can occur?
4. Related to the last question, although other species are breeding successfully in this tank, how does the tank setup today compare to your tank setup in the past, in terms of such factors as the rate and force of water flow around the caves?
5. You say that this has happened more than once. How many times? Specifically, I'm wondering how many eggs have each of the females released since restarting their spawning behavior? Are the clutches of eggs approximately the normal size (number of eggs) for this species? Or are the females producing a smaller than normal number of eggs per clutch? Is it possible that the females are unloading eggs that might be considered old and the females have to clear these out of their ovaries before they start producing newer, more viable eggs? Personally, I've had this experience with some frog species, so I imagine it's also possible with fish.
6. Do you have the option of buying one or two new females or males, just to "mix it up" in the romance category for these fish? I realize that this shouldn't be necessary given the fact that your complaint is a failure of egg hatching and not egg laying, so the problem isn't a lack of interest on the part of the males and females. But it's just a thought.
7. Is the big tank so crowded that the males are distracted during their egg-fanning behavior and the fathers just aren't paying enough attention to them?
8. And finally, what are you feeding the males? Is it possible that a dietary vitamin deficiency is causing sperm failure? There is a substantial literature on the effects of dietary vitamins and certain lipids on the quality and functionality of fish sperm. For example, see this article about Vitamin C: Sperm Quality and Ascorbic Acid Concentration in Rainbow Trout Semen Are Affected by Dietary Vitamin C: An Across-Season Study (this is an older study, but more recent works reinforce the dietary link to sperm function). I didn't take the time to look up dietary effects on egg quality, but those must certainly exist too.

I regret not being able to offer more specific help. I hope for the best!

Cheers, Eric

[jac]

I think I've finally seen the light, with some great help of my good friend Geoff!

I'm almost certainly suffering from, as he call's it, "old tank syndrome".

I have to dash off to work but will get back to this later on.

[jac]

For all those that don't have or use Facebook, I will transfer the brilliant information that has been coming up on the Catfish Study Group Facebookpage.
If any one is offended by this please say so, it is not my intention to do harm by doing this. I just feel this is such excellent info that it shouldn't get lost on social media ;)


Jacqueline:
6 april om 18:30 ·
Just a question I've been wanting to know the answer to for a while now after one of my breeding groups keeps mucking up their spawns for over a year or more.. Females get trapped, she lays her eggs and the males (both of them) fan the eggs, all just like normal. The problem is they are not fertilized!! The tank and water is part of a large breeding set up which contains about 1500L of water and is filtered by a large biological filter. There are several other breeding groups in the same system and they are breeding just fine. The caves are different sizes, the ones they are using are big enough. The males are quite fat, could this be a reason?? Could they be getting to old?? Any suggestions??


Dimitris: Which specie are they?
6 april om 20:16 ·


Jacqueline: Hypancistrus Zombies
6 april om 20:17 ·


Jacqueline: I've had a lot of fry from them the first years. Then I stopped them because I couldn't sell the fry. Now they seem to f@ck up every time....
6 april om 20:18 ·


Jacqueline: Please help, any one? I have a F1 male, still a bit young though. Only thing I haven't tried yet, put him in with the females. And get the two fat breeding males out of the group....
6 april om 20:25 ·


David: Have you enough females for two groups ? one with existing older males and the other with the F1 ?
6 april om 20:35 ·


Jacqueline: I could do that yes, I have 4 females and a juvenile from their last spawn. But I would also like to know why this is happening. I have eggs almost every 4 weeks, some times every two weeks, but they are definitely not fertile as the eggs are pale and the males kick them out after two or three days. They don't show any signs of an embryo on them.
6 april om 20:43 ·


David: As you have suggested perhaps the males are past their best. Fat does effect fertility in people so perhaps it also effects fishes ?
6 april om 20:46 ·


Jacqueline: I've had them for at least 5 years now and they were wild caught. I don't know for how long a breeding group can produce fry?
6 april om 20:48 ·


David: Any zeb breeders like to comment on longevity of males ? I know yours are zombies but do not know many if any breeders.
6 april om 20:50 ·


Bean: Have you witnessed the males Trying to fertilise them at all? Very strange it's both males one male you could say he just ant got it in him anymore. but very unlikely to be both of them are infertile
6 april om 20:50 ·


Jacqueline: As they are almost black there isn't a lot to go on if it is the same male or not.. This time the spawn was in the other cave as the last, so I now think both males are not fertilising the eggs. But I'm not 100% sure..
6 april om 20:52 ·


David: Have you tried separating them for a month or two then re-introducing them ?
6 april om 20:52 ·


Jacqueline: Yes, I did this to stop them reproducing about 1,5 years ago, just after the Lwelse days. As I can't sell them in Holland (nobody wants them) I separated them. Last summer they were put back together again, without successful spawns so far..
6 april om 20:54 ·


David: Hope someone else can help.
6 april om 20:55 ·


Jacqueline: Thank you for your interest and help so far David
6 april om 20:56 ·


David: Try posting the same question on Jool's Planet catfish website, may have a wider audience.
6 april om 21:01 ·


Jacqueline: I was thinking of that, but often there is no response on the forum and get better contact through Facebook... But I will do so
6 april om 21:02 ·


Neil: The eggs may be affected by the water chemistry ... What water are you using ..ps I hate zombie plecs ..LOL
6 april om 21:03 ·


Dimitris: Have you ever used medications in their tank?There are some referrences of sterility caused by acryflavine etc.I dont believe that you have an age problem as there are many posts around of 10year+ zebs,L066,L333 that still produce fry...
6 april om 21:05 ·

Jacqueline: LOL! Just normal tapwater, as I used in the beginning (nothing changed). PH 7,2 KH 3, I don't check anything else
6 april om 21:06 ·


Dimitris: Dont listen to Neil.Zombies are great
6 april om 21:07 ·


Jacqueline: I've used some worming medicine yes. But than the other groups should also be affected, but that's not the case..
6 april om 21:08 ·


Neil: I think Hans had a Zebra still breeding at around 18yrs old .... zombie plecs are not breeding because they find each other repulsive ! Grey horrible things ....
6 april om 21:08 ·


Dimitris: Ahahahhahaha one of the best commwnts ever....
6 april om 21:09 ·


Neil: Try getting an RO unit ... it may be they are more sensitive your supply water may have changed ?
6 april om 21:10 ·


Neil: Worth a go
6 april om 21:10 ·


Dimitris: So the solution is to put make-up, mascara, lipstick in the tank for the females or put a bottle of whiskey for the males.....lol
6 april om 21:11 ·


Neil: That will work .. definitely.
6 april om 21:11 ·


David: Two bottles of Whiskey and you will not need the make-up, mascara or lipstick.
6 april om 21:12 ·


Jacqueline: Thanks Neil, now my quite serious post went down hill fast and we end up with lipstick and booze LOL!!! Yes, I think that will do the trick
6 april om 21:13 ·


Neil: No .. I just told you what to try
6 april om 21:13 ·


Jacqueline: Oh sorry, it was Dimitris LOL!!!!!!!!! Greek and booze!!!!!!
6 april om 21:13 ·


Bean: There's a lad in UK just spawned them may be worth talking to him but other than that I think your the only two? If you get fed up ill have them as Neil won't get me any
6 april om 21:15 ·


Dimitris: Jacqueline Sorry about that... As i asked before.Have you treated them with any medication?I have posted in the past in planetcafish a study about acriflavine and sterility on fish.i ll try to find the pdf...
6 april om 21:19 ·


Jacqueline: If the males would be affected by medication (I can't recall I ever treated them for anything else then worms) would this be temporarily? Or long-lasting?
6 april om 21:20 · Vind ik leuk · 1


Jacqueline: Yes please Dimitris
6 april om 21:22 ·


Barbie: My old Ancistrus claro had this exact issue. A new male fixed the problem.
6 april om 21:22 ·


Neil: That s another subject Bean ... I get let down too much importing stuff ... these would be smuggled and double the price of more saleable fish ..... They are forbidden from export ... sorry Jacqueline ... If the water has the wrong make up the eggs cannot be fertilized ... all fish are not the same .
6 april om 21:23 ·


Dimitris: As far as i remember acriflavive could also alter the genetic material in some fish of the study....in some cases sterility was temporary but there where also permanent problems...i ve searched planetcatfish but i could not find my post with tapatalk search...
6 april om 21:24 ·


Bean: Only pulling your leg I understand Neil
6 april om 21:24 ·


Geoff: Have you considered that it might be the female that is producing infertile eggs? How many of the females are actually laying?
6 april om 21:26 ·


Dimitris: Geoff Have you observed this? We all usually blame the male but your assumption makes sense....
6 april om 21:30 ·


Barbie: I've found first spawns from females that have held eggs for a longer period of time are also frequently infertile. Where you have the F1 male, maybe give him one female in a separate tank?
6 april om 21:34 ·


Jacqueline: I understand Neil. But before I separated them they were in the main system (as they are now) and I've spawned them for about three years without problems
6 april om 21:37 ·


Jacqueline: They are easy to breed.
6 april om 21:37 ·


David: I think Neil is suggesting your water supply may have changed. Still OK for some but not for them.
6 april om 21:38 ·


Jacqueline: In that case, no it hasn't
6 april om 21:38 ·


Neil: How do you know the water has not changed from the supply ?
6 april om 21:41 ·


Jacqueline: Off to bed now, early start again tomorrow Was nice to have an extra day off from work due to Easter Thanks every one for joining in and helping out
6 april om 21:41 ·


Jacqueline: We have the best water in Holland, ground water (or what you call it). The company also hasn't changed.
6 april om 21:42 ·


Neil: Ok .. night ... .. It will cost you less to try than another male .
6 april om 21:43 ·


Neil: Check the organic levels in your super water .... Ok I give up.
6 april om 21:45 ·


Geoff: Dimitris, in other animals, like humans, the male can produce sperm for a much longer time than the females can produce eggs..... It also just seems more likely that one female would go sterile than two males? Additionally there has been much research in humans regarding the risks of breeding at older ages and females. In my ancistrus colonies I keep the males "forever" and replace the females every year or so as the eggs become weaker over time.
6 april om 22:09 ·


Geoff: I know what you are trying to say Neil, our water (which is the best ) does change seasonally as flooding and other natural events change the composition of the "trace" materials and concentrations in the water; however I know that Jacqueline has a large centralised system and I personally would discount the mineral / organic content as this issue is only affecting one of her hypancistrus species. If it was multiple species then that would be a different story.
6 april om 22:21 ·


Neil: Ok .. My last post on this subject ... So all fishes and eggs must react to the water the same ? If one fish is weaker it only takes a slight thing different to tip the balance .. lets do a for instance ... an old guy goes into the doctors ... he is more likely to catch a bug or ilness in that enviroment .... than perhaps a teenage guy ... the contributing factor is that both of them are in the same place one is possibly stronger than the other ... Who is more likely to go home and feel like having a baby the young man or the old man ....? Ps Did Jac not have a problem with fertility on L239 ? Weak egg structure ... again organics .
7 april om 11:54 ·


Jacqueline: The egg structure of the L239 did change yes. But they were fertile. If you say older fish might develop other needs to get a fertile spawn, what should I change?
7 april om 12:58 ·


Dimitris: I believe that you should get as Neil said a RO unit or at list all the pre-filters for the chemical/sediment/organic material of an RO
7 april om 13:00 ·


Jacqueline: Would adding minerals, like Kusuri clay, make a difference? I already add this to my livingroom tank for preventing mineral deficiënty on my Uaru's and Satanoperca's.
7 april om 13:00 ·


Dimitris: I do not know.I just google for this product...you have to check how this alters your water chemistry...especially the water hardness...what is your TDS in μς or ppm from your tap and what is currently in your tank?
7 april om 13:03 ·


Jacqueline: Both tap water and the water in my breeding set up is around 300 microsiemens.
7 april om 13:29 ·


Jacqueline: I know my hardness goes down in my livingroom tank, from 3 to 2 or even lower. That's why I use the clay.
7 april om 13:29 ·

[jac]

Here a follow up on my last post, about infertile Hypancistrus eggs. I still had difficulty in accepting the answers in that post. It just didn't feel right.. I still felt hopelessly lost. I sent a Pm to Geoff , explaining how I felt and about my worries of the situation. It was getting late and so went to bed. The next morning I found my answer to all my problems in a nice long email, explaining in detail the phenomina: "old tank syndrome". We may all know the "new tank syndrome", a situation in which we experience all kinds of water issue's until the tank stabilizes. But it takes a certain pattern to get to "old tank syndrome". I never mess with my fish. Once in my system, I leave them alone. I never change a winning team, so interior such as caves, wood, slates ect ect all stay the same for years. I never use any kind of water treatment just plain tap water (PH 7,2 and hardness of about 3, 300 microsiemens). And most of all, I keep my fish for long term, that means years. I spawned any thing that came to me in the fish house. So what happened??
As I am a very patiënt person and the situation just slowly changed, I didn't notice anything was going wrong for maybe 2 years. New fish spawned and so I was happy. But my older fish started to spawn less and less. I had an egg issue with my Beginni spawn twice. Now I know why smile-emoticon
My fish are suffering from long term mineral starvation. As my set up no longer gives off any supplements it's taken out of the fresh water. But my water is already very soft and doesn't contain enough calcium. After just a day my hardness and microsiemens drop instead of increase. In long term this means my fish are no longer able to make good, strong and healthy eggs.
As I took the last spawn of my Zombies I now see they are in fact fertile and I have two healthy eggs with embryo's. I did a water change yesterday and added Kusuri clay. The tip from Geoff was to start using Oystershell in my filter to supplement my water with calcium. So I'm looking for a shop that sell's this and add it to my system. I believe this really is the answer to my problem smile-emoticon I know Neil you tried to tell me this but I just didn't understand because we were on different levels to start of with. My water can already be associated with RO water.
To every one experiencing any kind of problem you just don't know how to fix, don't give up. Maybe you feel ashamed to tell about it but please do. You're not alone!!! In my case it took just one person with the same background issue to help me through this. Even if he lives on the other side of the planet smile-emoticon
So for the 10the time, Big thank you to Geoff!!!


Roy: I see that you are in the Netherlands so I don't know if you have a local farmers type store near you. If you do they should sell oyster shell for people that keep hens. I bought a large bag years ago for less than £10 & I am still using it. If you do manage to get some wash it under the running tap before use. It is very dusty.
6 uur ·


Sophie: Thank you for taking the time to write this. One thing to clarify on though, water changes? Were they being done or? Or is it your actual tap water that's the problem?
6 uur ·


David: Oyster shell/grit is normally sold to poultry keepers.
6 uur ·


David: For example :http://www.ebay.co.uk/.../5KG-OYSTER.../310195452148...
6 uur ·


Roy: That is what I have David Speed
6 uur ·


Jacqueline: Sophie , I don't use RO water. What I'm trying to explain: my tap water is quite soft it is just about 3 KH. When you have a set up that hasn't changed in years (so no change in wood, caves and slates) the natural minerals in these items run out. Fish need minerals such as calcium. But the water fresh from the tap can't replenish the lack of calcium because it is already low on calcium to begin with. So over a longer period you have a chronic calcium deficiency.
6 uur ·


Jacqueline: Having a nuisance of snails makes matters even worse. As the snails use the little calcium to make shells... So the fish are left without.
6 uur ·


Dimitris: i tend to disagree....this does not make sense and unfortunately i don't have time to explain myself in a lot of detail....your water at 3KH contains a lot of minerals AND Calcium....I used to perform 100% RO changes for years and just putting some discus trace elements as a supplement but in very low dosage which just not justify that i was giving "calcium" to the fish and never had any issue with at least "fertilized" eggs on any loricariid,callchthyidae,geophagus,discus that i spawned....your fish should be getting enough calcium by the foods that you are feeding (which is the basic source) and not the water.....I ll try to think Geoffs idea but i do not believe that applies on your case....for sure it is water chemistry issue but i do not believe calcium is your issue...i hope although to be wrong on this and that you have your solution already... anyway if you want to add calcium i suggest you to use liquid calcium supplement as used for reef tanks...
5 uur ·


Barbie: 3 degrees kH is enough to maintain a stable pH of 7.8 in my tanks, as long as I don't skip more than 3 weeks of water changes. A saltwater tank is only 8, isn't it? Now I'm going to be testing my tap water with the reef kit tomorrow . While I do agree that older tanks can slowly "decay" and erode the buffering capacity, I don't think that the driftwood or inert stones (slate) will have made that much difference. Detritus and mulm will be adding consistent organics, but regular water changes are removing them.

That the fish were spawning, but infertile is something I experience here every so often, usually after a dry spell when nothing has spawned. I attribute it to the females not laying eggs that can be fertilized, but my L134 just laid a clutch much the same. 2 eggs did hatch, but too early and I lost the others. Our water sources couldn't get much further from each other, and in my case, I started using straight RO in this tank a month ago to lower the hardness. It is now below 100ppm, with a pH of 6.8.

I realize none of this is solving your issue, but I don't know that your solution won't just cause more of an issue in a system that most fish are spawning readily in.
4 uur ·


Jacqueline: To be honest I don't think I'm strong enough to be able to argue with most of you.. I'm not that well substanciated to prove how I feel this is the solution to my case. I'm also aware this is not affecting a lot of people because most DO change something over the years, such as adding other fish to the group or reorganising a tank set up. You really need to be at the exact same situation and already start of with the soft water. I have seen messurements drop within days, i've also experienced other issue's on a different tank that all can be related to calcium deficiancy. Two years ago I tried to get to the bottom of this for my livingroom tank, asking on a Dutch cichlid forum. They could only acuse me of breeding and selling sick fish and when I got pissed off of being acused of something I'm sure is not the case I just got banned and blocked. So I'm a bit reserved about arguing on internet because you can't see how some one is interpreting the words typed.. Maybe Geoff can join us in this discussion and maybe talk more sense then me
3 uur ·


Neil: You can only try ... But It is IMO.. the problem with organic compounds . Geoff is correct . There is a balance between the way animals use the minerals in water and the water quality ... Good Luck Jacqueline .
3 uur ·


Dimitris: First of all you breed excellent fish.No doubt about that....as for the different opinions expressed here i have to say that all of them seem to be right and wrong at the same time....you are the only one that knows your environment so judge what is written here and act in a very "clean" way without rush in order for you to be able to evaluate the results of each different "solution" you try on your system...
3 uur ·


Torill: Jacqueline Heijmen Bennett-Leaver can i plz show this in one of my groups?
3 uur ·


Sophie: Conway any thoughts?

I can't give any useful input I'm afraid. Above my head here
3 uur ·


Darren: This Thread Is Very Interesting Reading !!
2 uur ·


David: To me this just proves the point that what works for one may not work for another and the primary reason imo is because we all start off with different water. Then different or no substrate, different filtration systems, different water change regimes and the list goes on............
2 uur ·


Geoff: And here I am..... So my KH is 0. The water company uses soda ash, to buffer it for the humans, pH 7.2-7.6, TDS 54ppm. Bio load seems to negate this buffering almost immediately. many of you know that I monitor my water daily (usually) and then I load all the readings from the 50+ tanks into a computer programme so I can print out graphs and stuff to look for correlations around spawning etc. I also load in any observations and actions I take, per tank, because this information is handy. Each tank gets a 60% water change with gravel vacuum 2x per week. In the tanks that are about 1 year old (new glass, substrate, wood, slate, pvc pipe, terracotta pipes) they suddenly lost all there buffering capacity, and I could loose up to 1pH per day. Note that in the "old" tanks I had the same issue when I moved into my new facility with its new water supply straight away (about a year ago). Pleco tanks will always have a residual bio load / organic compound build up, and my situation this is not helped with stocking and feeding levels; but this does accelerate the issue. I'm pleased that feeding Oyster shell to chickens has been mentioned because in my research into oyster shell, i read that oyster shell is 95% calcium and 5% other trace elements, those trace elements have been extracted from the water that the oyster developed its shell in. I mostly refuse to put anything from a bottle into my tanks, so oyster shell is a nice option. In addition Seachem have several different ranges of trace element products which implies that the water requires trace elements of some degree. Now back to the situation at hand. I believe that the natural buffering capacity of the material in our tanks is depleted quicker than we realise, which I have recorded to be true in my tanks. Note that the tanks with alpine schist (a type of stone we get here) last a lot longer before they loose there buffering capacity. Of course I have high bio / organic loads, which does not help and is what Neil is saying. Therefore it is also possible that when the buffering capacity of the contents of the tank fails, it is a fair assumption that the unknown mineral trace elements are also eroded. And this is what I am referring to as "old tank syndrome". Now the replacement water will have trace elements in it, which is true; however where previously the addition of trace elements from the material in the tanks may have been compensating for the loss due to bio load, once the material in the tank has been exhausted then the loss due to bio load now has a noticeable impact to the system as a whole. So I like the oyster shell because if I put in too much I can just remove some. The calcium gives me the buffering that I require and the 5% trace elements must also be being released into the water. If the buffering is at the right level then it is a fair assumption that the other trace elements will be causing no harm, remembering that I have been known to breed the odd fish or two as well Now if we apply this hypothesis to Jacqueline's situation remembering that she has been observing her tanks for years, and as we all know there are a million observations that we subconsciously make, then what she described to me seems to align with my own observations (allbeit over a longer timeframe). If we look at the case of the "dissolving" eggs and also consider other discussions that have been had on different forums etc, specifically relating to issues which cause the hardening of egg shells, then to my mind it is also possible that a depletion of trace elements (perhaps even soluable calcium) in the water, rather than in the fish (which they get from their food), may have an impact on the development of the egg post fertilisation, which causes it to dissolve. Therefore the addition of the oyster shell will assist in the buffering capacity of the whole system and the possible release of some trace elements at the same rate as the buffering capacity. It is a cost effective and natural way to reintroduce some elements that have potentially been depleted over time. Well that's my theory anyways.
1 uur ·


Allan: Great thread this. In Scotland mostly it is very soft water and the p.h can crash dramatically. I tend not to test my water very often, I just don't seem to have time so I usually put pots in various tanks and fill them with coral gravel or sand. I can usually tell with years of experience when the fish are just not looking right and that means water change time. I know some species of fish are happy in a p.h of 4.5 but that really scares me.
1 uur ·

[CharlieM9]

Jac, that is a very useful post! Please keep us updated on the status of your next few zombie pleco spawns, and maybe even other groups in this same system that have been having smaller clutches? That is if you have noticed anything like that even?

I can actually attest to something like this with my group of L333. Their first spawn was in a tank that had been setup for 3 years prior, then the only thing that changed was the group of 14 L333 were placed in it. The first spawn yielded 4 fry, and the other eggs and the subsequent spawns have all had the yolks start to pop through the egg shell after a day or two. I just built a new fish room and new tanks /decor and one male is now on eggs for day 5 already. So maybe I need to go purchase some oyster she'll myself!

Thanks for the wonderful information Jac and Geoff!!!

[jac]

Jacqueline: Yesterday morning one single fry hatched from about 50-70 eggs that were laid. Very weak and expect it to die soon but it does proof the males are actually fine and the eggs are fertilesed. I hope by fixing my calcium the next eggs will be a better quality.

[jac]

Lee: This is interesting. As some of you know I like Allan James Snr reside in Scotland (edinburgh to be exact). Water is buffered to 7.4 out of the tap but falls to below 6 within 24 hrs. Gh and kh are both barely registering. I add coral sand to the tanks to buffer them to around 6.4 or so - this helps with crashes etc around and i had no issues with corydoras spawns or hatching. After about 7 months of this system the eggs just stopped hatching. Nothing different and the readings apparently the same. I changed the coral sand in the tanks to new and within 2 days had a spawn.. eggs were fertile and hatched normally. Very strange but it stuck with me.


Jacqueline: Thanks for sharing Lee


Barbie: I recently talked to a gentleman spawning Ivanacara adoketa successfully. He had water evaluated from the river they come from. It had 0 calcium, but appreciable magnesium and selenium (of which washington is especially deficient) He raises the hard to manage little buggers by the hundred and it really got my attention. Any chance we could get someone going to these rivers to bring back water for a specific analysis and note the specific time of year? I know I would be willing to kick in $50 a year or something for information like that!

[bekateen]

Hi jac, thank you for sharing all this. It's very interesting. After reading it, I must say I'm still uncertain about the idea that old tank syndrome (OTS) is your problem. Here's why: If it is the problem, then why are other fish spawning successfully in the same water system? Shouldn't all of your fish be affected by OTS? Or do you think OTS first affects only the fish which have lived in the tank for the longest time, but newer fish aren't affected?

Cheers, Eric

[jac]

As you can read, over time all my breeding groups got less productive or having problems with the eggs.
As new fish (such as my L239) still have enough calcium in their system they did spawn twice this year. I have had these since October. So yes, I think it has the strongest affect on the fish that have been exposed to calcium starvation the longest. But maybe it is also species related. I have a pair of Leporacathicus heterodon and the male of that pair is showing signs of external calcium deficiency, just slight signs of plate erosion round the head and lateral side. I have had these since Januari, they were in poor condition at that time. Other fish don't seem to have this.

I realize that to many of you this does sound a bit crazy and having a hard time to believe in this theory. But for me, I'm nearly a hundred procent certain this is what is affecting my system.
I'm already using Kusuri clay in my living room for about 6 months with great results. I ordered some Oystershells this afternoon and I will start using these when they come in.

[bekateen]

As you can read, over time all my breeding groups got less productive or having problems with the eggs.

I apologize for missing this. I've been following the thread from the start, but I think that over the course of days, I lost track of this detail. No, the idea isn't crazy; I think it's completely logical, especially in tanks that have wood or certain types of substrate. Obviously wood decays over time and its effect on water quality should be expected to change. And apart from that, there is the dietary component: we try to provide our fish a balanced diet, but in reality we're still probably missing some micronutrient, especially one or more of the trace elements or vitamins that animals need to thrive. And each species will have some slightly different needs. Good luck, jac.
Cheers, Eric

[Jools]

I have the same issue with water, but I learned a long time ago any time I ate shellfish to keep the shells and put them in a fish tank. Including large crustacean exoskeletons. Over time I can judge this by eye although I ended up stopping use of a lot of test kits and meters and pretty much only using a tds meter.

Meanwhile, no problem posting (good) Facebook content on here, facebooks terms mean that you can as you surrender a lot of rights at the point its posted on there.

Jools

[husky_jim]

Hello to all.

I have to add on this very informative post some updates after a discussion i had last week with a friend who is biologist specialized on fish-cultures and works on the biggest fish farm in Greece for saltwater fish and is responsible for egg fertilization and fry rearing.

So in order to summarize.

What Geoff suggested is 100% correct and also what i 've mentioned about fish getting calcium from food is also correct.
The breakage of the egg-shell is primarily caused by calcium deficiency of the females during the 'build-up' of the eggs inside them.

In Jac's case the "food calcium" is not enough due to the fact that her system is 'old' plus it is bare-bottom without any substrate and/or stone.

At least for me it is almost impossible and never observe it in my tanks since my tap water is hard enough and even when i do 100% RO changes i have other calcium sources.

The results of Jac since she put the oyster shells are great and i hope that the spawns will get better as time passes.

[jac]

Hi Dimitris!

Thank you for this post

As an update on my progress I must say there has been a remarkable positive change to my breeding set up since I've started to add calcium to the water.
A few weeks ago I added the Oystershell to the filter and in addition I also add Kusuri clay after a large waterchange each week.

My fish are the best to judge the effects it has had over the past few weeks. They have started spawning again. At first the egg quality wasn't up to standard yet, what could be expected because the eggs are not "freshly made". The second spawn is already much better. I'm excited to see how the future spawns will develop but I'm very confident my breedings will get back to normal again over the coming months.

It has been a very valuable and extremely interesting lesson on physics and all credit for this goes to Geoff who has been tackling this phenomena and was so willing to help me understand what was probably happening in my case. It has opened my eyes in many ways.

Thanks to many more that have participated in the discusion and helped me on my way, back to breeding wonderful sucky fish again

[plecoboy]

So how much would you put in a 55 gallon tank? I picked up some oyster shell poultry feed today. Great thread !!

[husky_jim]

So how much would you put in a 55 gallon tank? I picked up some oyster shell poultry feed today. Great thread !!

You shouldn't put any UNLESS you have the same problem as Jacqueline.Each tank is different and you might end up doing something that is not needed by your fish and will have 'different' results...

[plecoboy]

Well I already added 1/4 cup to 2 tanks. I put it in a fry saver. TDS only went up by 10 in each tank. I'll keep an eye on them.