pleco tank filtration?

plecfan1 · Post by **plecfan1** » 16 Mar 2015, 02:02

Hello. I will be upgrading my 75 gallon exotic pleco tank to a 125 gallon in the next few weeks. I currently run two large hang on filters and and occasional powerhead. My plecos produce a decent amount of waste as to be expected with the species. I do at last a 40-50% water change weekly and fish are doing well, knock on wood:-) but would like to upgrade to a canister\s filter for larger tank. This aqua scaping on new tank is going to be very nice and I hope to get away with less disturbing the gravel if possible but still maintain an impeccably clean water quality. Never used a canister so do not know much about these. I have done some research but would like any knowledgeable feedback as to ideas\ info. Thanks, Steve

dw1305 · Post by **dw1305** » 16 Mar 2015, 10:27

H all,
Have a look a this thread, and links <http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... 10&t=41716>. It should tell you all you need to know.

cheers Darrel

plecfan1 · Post by **plecfan1** » 16 Mar 2015, 22:30

Darrell catfish gasping for air? How does this apply to my topic?

plecfan1 · Post by **plecfan1** » 16 Mar 2015, 22:39

OK I read further and the aeration is very informative but didn't see anything about canister filters..... My fish have plenty of oxygen more concerned with tank cleanliness at this time.

Post by **Shane** » 17 Mar 2015, 10:27

There are dozens of previous threads on this topic.

My own $.02... I have an FX 5 on my 125 gal West African display tank. It is the first and last canister I will ever own.

Pros
Does a good job providing flow.
Does a good job of mechanical and/or chemical filtration.
Is quiet.
Easy to "hide" hardware in a display tank.

Cons
Monthly cleanings involve four 5 gallon buckets, a gallon of water on the floor (on a good day), and take half an hour. I also have to pack the wet vac down to the fishroom for clean up after cleaning the filter.
Cost me as much as all other filters in my 25 tank fishroom combined.
Takes up the space of a 10 gallon tank.
Provides very little biological filtration.
Weighs about 50 lbs. Too heavy for my wife to lift out and clean if I am out of town.
Buying Fluval brand media replacements costs more than a new Marineland filter.

Keep in mind that this is a lightly stocked 125 with a dozen tetras and a few small cichlids. Loricariids can be very dirty fish and would likely require at least weekly filter cleaning. I don't have 2-3 hours a month to spend cleaning a single filter.

-Shane

dw1305 · Post by **dw1305** » 17 Mar 2015, 14:25

Hi all,

plecfan1 wrote:OK I read further and the aeration is very informative but didn't see anything about canister filters.....

It is this bit.

dw1305 wrote:Canister filters
The media in canister filters doesn't have any access to atmospheric oxygen, therefore in a canister filter we need to ensure that the water flowing in is highly oxygenated, and the residence time inside the filter isn't so long that the water becomes de-oxygenated whilst in the canister.

Basically you need to take a lot more care to ensure your tank water is fully oxygenated if you are reliant on a canister filter. Biological filtration is an oxygen intensive process, and you need to make sure that the bacteria on the filter media in the canister don't run out of oxygen.

plecfan1 wrote:My fish have plenty of oxygen more concerned with tank cleanliness at this time.

Dissolved oxygen is a bit of a tricky one, because you can't easily measure it. Because of this I wrote an article that attempts to quantify the processes that lead to oxygenation and de-oxygenation in the aquarium - "Aeration and dissolved oxygen.....", it has had a few homes but currently resides at <http://plecoplanet.com/?page_id=829>. I'm biased, but if I could only keep one article on fish keeping, and had to destroy all the others, I would keep this one.

Shane wrote:I have an FX 5 on my 125 gal West African display tank. It is the first and last canister I will ever own.......
Pros
Does a good job providing flow.
Does a good job of mechanical and/or chemical filtration.
Is quiet.

Cons
Monthly cleanings involve four 5 gallon buckets, a gallon of water on the floor (on a good day), and take half an hour.

I have some of the same reservations as Shane, with one exception, and that is I don't use any external filter for mechanical filtration, and I would very strongly recommend that you don't use your filter a syphon.

The wood fibres etc produced by the fish are unsightly, but they aren't that polluting. If you use your filter as a syphon as the filter media becomes clogged and the flow slows, the water can't supply oxygen quickly enough to the filter media. This is a very dangerous situation, and it is why I have an easy clean sponge pre-filter on the filter intake.

You still have to syphon the faeces and wood waste out of the tank, but I'd much rather do that.

cheers Darrel

plecfan1 · Post by **plecfan1** » 17 Mar 2015, 21:38

Thanks a ton for the info darrell\ Shane it was extremely helpful and I will be checking out that fx 5. I will continue doing regular vacuuming water changes with reg syphon.

YouTube · Post by **Jools** » 20 Mar 2015, 09:22

One thing about this topic is that filters differ a fair bit between the US and the UK (or wider EU). I passed on the Fluval FX5 as I was told it is relatively noisy although I think it represents value. I have four Eheim pro 3 2180s in the fishroom. While water changes are their usual regularity (filters are machines, not magicians), I only have to breakdown the filter and clean it every 12-18 months when I notice the flow has dropped off. One of them has been running, untouched for 2.5 years on high end Hypancistrus tank. I also like having heaters outside the tank. These things are not cheap but they still are a single figure fraction of the cost of the fishes in the tank. I'm not sure you can easily get the Eheim in the US, it think the Nat Geo brand is similar over there.

I think canisters are a bad idea if you have wood eating species but I have larger plecos (Leporacanthicus, P. sabaji, Hypostomus and Squaliforma) in the eheim tanks and they don't clog quickly.

Jools

Post by **Shane** » 20 Mar 2015, 10:09

Cost is another major issue. Eheims and Fluvals are very expensive here.

Eheim 2180 450 gph $533.00
Marineland 350 350 gph $32.00

A price difference of a few bucks and we could argue that Eheims are better made and last longer. A pricec difference of $500 though does not lend itself to that argument as I can replace my Marineland every 10 years for the next 100 years and still have $200 in my pocket.
-Shane

YouTube · Post by **Jools** » 20 Mar 2015, 10:16

I agree completely on price. On a tank with ~US$4000 of fish, it would seem nonsensical not to put in resilient, best-of-breed filtration. On a tank with US$40 of fish, it makes no financial sense - the ethics then become a personal matter.

Jools

kvnbyl · Post by **kvnbyl** » 20 Mar 2015, 10:54

true about the magnum and the eheim except that the eheim has a lot more room for filter pads, bio material, carbon etc. if the mag 350s are the same as the ones we have in the states you get a small container for material and a single spongy covering. you're not going to get anywhere near as much filtering out of that filter. if you mean the marineland c series then that's something different, they have decent sized containers and work well

Post by **Shane** » 20 Mar 2015, 12:50

If I was doing a really big loricariid tank, and had the space, I would seriously consider this set up. Dual over flows and industrial biowheels. This thing could probably double as a wastewater treatment plant for a wee village... and it is still $100 less than an Eheim.
-Shane

dw1305 · Post by **dw1305** » 20 Mar 2015, 14:21

Hi all,

Shane wrote:If I was doing a really big loricariid tank, and had the space, I would seriously consider this set up. Dual over flows and industrial biowheels. This thing could probably double as a wastewater treatment plant for a wee village... and it is still $100 less than an Eheim.

I like the look of that as a set-up as well. Do you have the name of the company that makes them?

cheers Darrel

2wheelsx2 · Post by **2wheelsx2** » 20 Mar 2015, 16:03

Jools wrote:I passed on the Fluval FX5 as I was told it is relatively noisy although I think it represents value. I have four Eheim pro 3 2180s in the fishroom.

And you'd be right. I have an FX5 in the basement near my home office, along with 2 other canisters. It's 3 meters away from me and I can hear it. One thinks it's not very loud until you shut it off and then you realize how silent the room is with Eheims and Rena filters running.

dw1305 wrote:I like the look of that as a set-up as well. Do you have the name of the company that makes them?

I believe that's the Marineland biowheel sump which appears to be discontinued already, at least in North America, so any leftovers would likely be cheaper. http://www.marineland.com/Products/disc ... ilter.aspx

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 21 Mar 2015, 23:00

Regarding filters, I found the Eheim classic canister range to be by far the best I have ever used in terms of ease of use and reliability. They might cost more, but they will run for decades (and longer if you replace worn parts).

Fluval cannot compare in quality. I owned an FX5, but I also found it really loud, and a real pain to maintain. For a big tank or a display tank with a high stocking, I would possibly go for a custom solution, possibly a wet/dry sump set up, as suggested.

So, for an average loricariid tank I would choose an Eheim classic plus a big airstone or two, with maybe also a circulation pump (if required for rheophiles).

As already mentioned, a great way to improve filter efficiency is to actually prevent it from removing the detritus from the tank. The aquarist should remove the detritus, not the filter. It does seem paradoxical to prevent your filter from filtering, but it makes real sense. Having a filter blocked up with detritus strongly degrades its ability as a biological filter. All the extra organic material will also consume oxygen as it breaks down, further reducing water quality.

Aquascaping is important here too. You need to set the tank up in such a way that the detritus collects in specific locations in the tank that are easily accessible to a biweekly siphon. Experiment with moving around the decor and filter intake/outlets to achieve this. Also, place the intake well above the substrate so that no muck gets sucked up. A foam pre-filter around the intake helps a lot too. Make this accessible for frequent cleaning, also.

Somewhat related to this is the choice of substrate. You definitely do not want a substrate that allows detritus and uneaten food to fall into the cracks (i.e. gravel) . When this builds up it will again degrade water quality, and is a pain to keep clean (gravel vacuuming, no thanks!). You essentially want a very thin layer (no more than 1/4 inch or 1 cm) of sand or grit (or better still a mix of several grades for a more natural effect). Detritus will sit on top and can easily be sucked up.

dw1305 · Post by **dw1305** » 22 Mar 2015, 21:15

Hi all,

2wheelsx2 wrote:I believe that's the Marineland biowheel sump which appears to be discontinued already

Thank you, that is a shame. Does any-one on the forum own one?

racoll wrote:I found the Eheim classic canister range to be by far the best I have ever used in terms of ease of use and reliability

I'm still an Eheim Classic fan as well, I've got some that are 20 years old and still work well (and you can still get spares for them). The water goes in at the bottom and out at the top, having passed through the filter media. It only has one gasket, and one moving part (the impeller).

racoll wrote:The aquarist should remove the detritus, not the filter. It does seem paradoxical to prevent your filter from filtering, but it makes real sense. Having a filter blocked up with detritus strongly degrades its ability as a biological filter. All the extra organic material will also consume oxygen as it breaks down, further reducing water quality.

Aquascaping is important here too. You need to set the tank up in such a way that the detritus collects in specific locations in the tank that are easily accessible to a biweekly siphon. Experiment with moving around the decor and filter intake/outlets to achieve this. Also, place the intake well above the substrate so that no muck gets sucked up. A foam pre-filter around the intake helps a lot too. Make this accessible for frequent cleaning, also.

Somewhat related to this is the choice of substrate. You definitely do not want a substrate that allows detritus and uneaten food to fall into the cracks (i.e. gravel) . When this builds up it will again degrade water quality, and is a pain to keep clean (gravel vacuuming, no thanks!). You essentially want a very thin layer (no more than 1/4 inch or 1 cm) of sand or grit (or better still a mix of several grades for a more natural effect). Detritus will sit on top and can easily be sucked up.

I couldn't agree more, as far as I'm concerned that really is the "nuts and bolts" of tank management. They are simple measures that every-one can take. They make your aquarium more resilient and provide better water quality for your fish.

cheers Darrel

Matt30 · Post by **Matt30** » 23 Mar 2015, 03:37

I agree re the Eheim canisters filters there great, I have two 2217's on my 180 liter tank which have never let me down over the years, I have snapped a couple of the ceramic shafts but that was down to me being heavy handed when removing the impeller to clean it.
I have often looked at the newer Eheim's and other filters that are all singing and dancing but don't think I would get the reliability and peace of mind that I have with my current filters.

kvnbyl · Post by **kvnbyl** » 23 Mar 2015, 14:04

the 2217s are the best. I have one that must be close to 25 years old and the only thing I have replaced is the impeller shaft ('cause it was a little noisy, not because it had broken) I have 14 - 2217s and 2215s and never have a problem. they are not the easiest filter to service but they make up for that in reliability