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Hi All,
This weekend I put together my one male and two female ABN in their own tank, a 10 gal outfitted with a fine gravel bed, driftwood, java ferns and java moss, and one 5" long, 1" diameter bamboo pipe for a cave. The tank is heated to 78*F (pH 6.6, ammonia 0, nitrite 0, nitrate 20) and is supplied with a glass-mounted sponge filter and a 4" air stone.

First of all, within hours they (the male I presume, but I'm not sure; I never saw it happen) started excavating the gravel under the bamboo cave, creating a large pit under the opening of the cave (I didn't know BNs were excavators). Not thinking anything of it, I leveled out the gravel, and an hour later they had moved it again, so I left it alone.

Anyway, one day later, I awoke to find a pile of about 30-40 fresh eggs (mostly in one mass, and about 5-8 loose) in the gravel pit under the mouth of the cave. Woohoo! My first pleco spawn ever. Yes, I know that when it comes to spawning common BNs, they have been described as "roaches" because it's so easy, and one BLOG states, "Just add water" to get them to spawn. So I realize that this isn't a great feat, but I'm still very excited.

I used a turkey baster to inject some loose eggs back into the cave, and the male inside quickly threw the eggs back out... three times I tried, and three times he kicked them out again! I searched the forums for solutions to save the eggs and I read about egg tumblers and how to make them. I didn't have the right parts at home to do this, so I jury-rigged my own solution: I placed a hanging net-style fry basket into the tank and I placed a small stone to the basket in order to pull the netting taught and to make the netting sag downward towards the center of the basket. Then I placed the long air stone directly under the basket and added the eggs. The bubbles hit the netting under the stone, then roll around the sides of the basket as they float to the surface. I can see some (miniscule) agitation of the main egg mass inside the net; I just don't know if that is sufficient to keep the eggs alive. In the forums, I didn't find anyone else using this specific arrangement as an egg tumbler, but this has some superficial similarities (very superficial) to a contraption described in an old thread and in the S. lucipinnis COTM (except that setup dumps the water into the basket from above, rather than pushing water up from underneath).

In your opinion, can I expect that this arrangement will be sufficient to keep the eggs viable until they hatch? Or do I need to buy parts and make a real egg tumbler as fast as I can?

Thanks! Cheers, Eric

I've seen both my female BN and both L205s digging to some degree, and plenty of reports from others to, so whilst its not normal behaviour its certainly nothing to be concerned about.

Many fish make poor parents for the first few attempts so abandoned batches of eggs, whilst a little sad, is quite normal (soon you may wish they failed more often!).

Whilst BNs may be the egg laying equivalent of guppies I always say its good for the soul to have at least one success before you have to decide on how to split the adults (or be on constant egg-removal watch).

Hi dpm1,
Thanks for the feedback. I wasn't concerned about the digging, just surprised. I knew that other pleco species were diggers, I just didn't know that BNs were. I think what surprised me was that the two females had been in a community tank for about a year, and they never dug in that tank. The male is new; I bought him three weeks ago and he's been kept in quarantine since his arrival. He had the same gravel and the same bamboo cave in that tank as he does in the new tank, and he didn't dig at all in that tank. I suspect that it was the union of these love-lorn Loricariids that started the digging. Of course, I did put them together on Valentine's Day - it could have been the candle-lit algae wafers and the mood music (airstone) that set this in motion.

dpm1 wrote:Many fish make poor parents for the first few attempts so abandoned batches of eggs, whilst a little sad, is quite normal

Yes, I've seen this before in my cichlids many times, and I've also read many forum posts here on PC from others who've experienced the same naïve parent - egg rejection phenomenon. Again, I'm not too concerned about it, since whenever fish spawn once, I almost expect them to spawn again, and be better parents with each successive clutch of eggs. I know that's not always the case, but it's been my experience with Geophagus, Apistogramma and some mbuna spp.. So even if I can't rescue these eggs, I expect we'll get more soon enough.

dpm1 wrote: (soon you may wish they failed more often!)... Whilst BNs may be the egg laying equivalent of guppies I always say its good for the soul to have at least one success before you have to decide on how to split the adults (or be on constant egg-removal watch).

Ha ha, yes! I guess the primary reason for my post is to see if I can save this first batch: Is what I'm doing sufficient to keep them viable or is this setup bound to fail? For the last two years, all we've gotten (and tried to get, for that matter) are cory and banjo eggs. So to have our first success with a pleco is just a buzz of excitement for us (again, acknowledging that litter-training kittens is harder than getting BNs to breed... you have to point the kitten at the litter box one time before they get it - so much work! LOL)

Fortunately, I've got 3 LFS that have bought all of our previous fish (as trade-ins) in the past, and they've said they'll take our ABNs too. Now, if these start breeding like guppies (or roaches, or rabbits, or whatever your favorite comparator is ), as you say I may reach a point that I can't get rid of them fast enough. In which case, I'll either separate the sexes again, or start feeding my other fish caviar!

Does anyone have an opinion or advice about the egg rescue apparatus/attempt? Thanks.
Cheers, Eric

Update: 2 fungused eggs were discovered and thrown away this morning. To improve circulation in the basket, I removed the airstone from under the basket and placed it directly into the basket. Would still like to know if this assembly represents a (basically) futile effort (versus using a real egg tumbler), or if there's reason to suspect it will succeed.

Just got my first look in his cave today. Apparently, even though he rejected or lost about 30-40 eggs on the first day, he didn't lose them all! Some look like they've fungused (arrow in photo) and I don't know how to get those out, or even that I can or should, since I don't want to disturb dad too much. The eggs in the fry net are still developing too; of these, so far I've lost only 4 to fungus. Lookin' good!

Great


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Thanks, Mol_PMB. This morning I saw two wrigglers in the fry net. So hatching has started (this is the start of "day 5" since egg deposition) and the fry net is working. Yippee!

Good work!
My baby BNs are just in the tank with their parents, and not growing as fast as my twiglets (well not in length, certainly). I might get another external breeder box and see if that helps the BNs. In the mean time I've moved one in with the twiglets as an experiment.

P.S. I think my Farlowellas are about to spawn again.


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Thanks again, and keep updating us on your twiglets. I've never kept those and they are fascinating (and so darn cute!).

About my BNs, here's how "information overload" was able to sneak up and bite me on the butt: In this thread I started by asking about the use of the spawning net/basket and airstone in place of an authentic egg tumbler. I was worried that the eggs would fungus without a better aeration system. Then today I was re-reading the various Shane's World articles about the bristlenose, when lo-and-behold, there it is in the article, "Ancistrus 101, Part 2 • Spawning Techniques and Fry Rearing," staring me in the face:

Shane Linder wrote:If the egg clutch is removed at this point, it should be placed in a breeder's net in the parent's tank with a gentle airstone located an inch or two away from the egg clutch. Provided the spawning tank is well cared for, Ancistrus eggs are rarely affected by fungus or other maladies.

Dang, I must have read this article at least 3 times before my ABNs actually spawned, and somehow I missed this text. This just reaffirms to me that PlanetCatfish is a veritable encyclopedia of information, with lots of valuable tidbits hidden away (and in some cases, like this, not-so-hidden-away). I just need to avoid any information overload and stay focused.

Thanks Shane! Cheers, Eric

I have had eggs tossed out. When this happens I use a external breeding box that feeds in water from the parent tank and put in a air stone. Keeps the eggs moving. Always works out for me. After hatching, I then leave the fry in it. Makes it easier for them to find the food. After a month, I put them in a rearing tank.

Thanks, mibwb. Yep, that sounds like a similar solution. So far, my eggs are done hatching. I can't tell how many fry the dad still has in his cave, but I've got about 20 swimming around in the net and a few loose in the tank. I'm afraid the mom, or the other female, may have eaten a few, but I haven't actually seen it happen (I just can't find as many fry loose in the tank now as I saw the other day).

Update: After the first fry hatched, several disappeared. I'm wondering if mom or the other adult female in the tank may have eaten a few of the first to hatch. I didn't see her do it, but I didn't find any dead babies either. It's been eight days since hatching and over 40 babies made it past one week. They're still with the three adults and they seem to be perfectly safe now- the adults aren't paying any attention to them. Time for the happy dance.

dpm1 wrote:Many fish make poor parents for the first few attempts... (soon you may wish they failed more often!)... you have to decide on how to split the adults (or be on constant egg-removal watch).

UPDATE: Only 18 days after the first spawn, they've done it again - fresh eggs this morning. And apparently one attempt at parenting is not enough to learn how to do it properly; the male expelled ALL the eggs out of his cave onto the gravel this time (at least the first time he kept about half the eggs in his cave). Oh well, out comes the fry net and airstone again.

bekateen wrote: UPDATE: Only 18 days after the first spawn, they've done it again -

Better mark it on the calendar and check again in 18 days...and 18 after that...and 18....well you get the idea

I do love my girl but there no way she's ever having a mate...it might tip me into Looney Tunes Land I've already have a trio of Spiketail Paradise fish laying eggs every fortnight (tho fortunately few fry survive the females hunting once the male kicks the fry out)*

Get that Plan B ready...

* I dont like the fact they are eating the fry but its their natural behaviour and I do give the fry a fighting chance with plenty of riccia and lettuce to hide in, however the girls are relentless in their pursuit. Thankfully I have 2 that have survived the onslaught so I have a little bit of success to smile about:d (although if the babies are female they too will soon join the fry hunting, and if males I will need to give them their own space...I just cant win!

Jeeze! Sr. Paz says he'd be happy to come visit your girl. Of course he's just an ordinary brown/black & white, but he'd quite happily spend the rest of his life in a cave with eggs &/or babies. He's an exemplary dad but currently PO'd because I've taken his girls away from him for awhile ; 400 or so babies is enough right now!

dpm1 wrote:I've already have a trio of Spiketail Paradise fish laying eggs every fortnight

Congratulations, beautiful fish - you are blessed.

dpm1 wrote:Get that Plan B ready...

I'm not a fan of Plan B, but that doesn't mean my promiscuous BNs are safe. To quote Liam Neeson in the movie Taken,

Liam Neeson wrote:But what I do have are a very particular set of skills, skills I have acquired over a very long career.

I could spay and neuter my BNs with my eyes closed. (not saying I would, just that I could... or I could simply separate them to different tanks - less dramatic but just as effective... yeah, I'll just separate them when I'm ready; it's easier, more humane, and easily reversed if desired. )

NCE12940 wrote:Jeeze! Sr. Paz says he'd be happy to come visit your girl. Of course he's just an ordinary brown/black & white, but he'd quite happily spend the rest of his life in a cave with eggs &/or babies. He's an exemplary dad but currently PO'd because I've taken his girls away from him for awhile ; 400 or so babies is enough right now!

Wow! He's been busy (and so have the lady BNs)! So I assume you'll wait a while then put them back together? If you end up with more eggs than you want to raise, is there anything you could do with them? E.g., have you considered giving them to a local high school biology class for the students to observe and raise? I bet there are a lot of science classes that could integrate egg development and fish biology into a class project, and in the process you'd also be (potentially) creating a new generation of fish hobbyists among the students.

Give poor Sr. Paz my regards. If he's too lonely, I suppose you can always tape photos to his aquarium glass of your females in attractive poses (eating algae wafers, affixed to the glass, hanging upside down along a log, hiding behind the heater, etc. In other words, if he's that prolific, I suspect that just about ANY pose the female strikes will be attractive to him ). Do you think he'd appreciate that, or would it drive him crazy? LOL

Cheers, Eric

bekateen wrote:

NCE12940 wrote:Jeeze! Sr. Paz says he'd be happy to come visit your girl. Of course he's just an ordinary brown/black & white, but he'd quite happily spend the rest of his life in a cave with eggs &/or babies. He's an exemplary dad but currently PO'd because I've taken his girls away from him for awhile ; 400 or so babies is enough right now!

Wow! He's been busy (and so have the lady BNs)! So I assume you'll wait a while then put them back together? If you end up with more eggs than you want to raise, is there anything you could do with them? E.g., have you considered giving them to a local high school biology class for the students to observe and raise? I bet there are a lot of science classes that could integrate egg development and fish biology into a class project, and in the process you'd also be (potentially) creating a new generation of fish hobbyists among the students.

Give poor Sr. Paz my regards. If he's too lonely, I suppose you can always tape photos to his aquarium glass of your females in attractive poses (eating algae wafers, affixed to the glass, hanging upside down along a log, hiding behind the heater, etc. In other words, if he's that prolific, I suspect that just about ANY pose the female strikes will be attractive to him ). Do you think he'd appreciate that, or would it drive him crazy? LOL

Cheers, Eric

Actually Sr. Paz has been a super dad from the get go. Got an adult female for him and the next night they spawned. This was in a community tank with Madagascar and Dwarf Neon Rainbowfish. I left everybody in the tank and Paz raised all the babies, 4 times! The Rainbowfish only ate babies when they swam; suckering around and not free swimming, they paid no attention to them. (The Rainbowfish have since gone back to the LFS.) At any rate, I've never removed the cave w/ Paz and he's never kicked any eggs out. The babies all eventually go to the LFS for credit, though I have sold a few to people on other forums. If he saw a picture of one of his girlfriends it'd probably do him in (I had a friend years ago who had a pinup picture of Mae West next to her cat's litterbox )

Nice cave photo / family portrait.

And here he is with the 2nd spawn & a baby from the first spawn.

dpm1 wrote:

bekateen wrote: UPDATE: Only 18 days after the first spawn, they've done it again -

Better mark it on the calendar and check again in 18 days...and 18 after that...and 18....well you get the idea

UPDATE, it's been a couple of months since I separated my male and female to get them to stop spawning, but I must say, you nailed it on the head!

Between February and June (four months of observation), this one pair of albino BNs spawned every 18-19 days, like clockwork - 6 times in 4 months... I stopped collecting eggs and let other fish eat the eggs b/c I couldn't care for all the fry!

I suspect that it's controlled by the timing of the female's ovaries and her ability to produce eggs. I did not expect their schedule to be so regular!!!

Cheers, Eric