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Hi All,

I have a quarantine tank filled Buenos Aires, silver tip, and golden tetras (about 20 fish total). I've had the fish for almost 2 weeks and was planning to wait 2 more weeks before introducing them to my other tanks. Up until yesterday, the tetras all looked really healthy, so healthy that for a moment I thought, "Hey, I can end quarantine early - what could go wrong?"

Thankfully I didn't give in to this impulse, because last night I noticed that they are breaking out with Ich. From what I've read, that's not a huge problem for these tetras - I believe that they can handle the medicine I have (Kordon Rid Ich Plus), some heat, and a little salt in the water. However, I also have about 10 bunches of Elodea in the tank to give the fish hiding places and reduce their stress during the quarantine period. Rid Ich Plus tends to kill plants (and the salt can harm plants too), and I don't want that to happen if I can avoid that.

My question is this: If I remove the plants from the fish tank while I treat the fish with the medicine and salt, is there anything I can do to get rid of the Ich on the plants? I've read that if Ich is deprived of fish hosts for about 2 weeks, then the Ich will just die even without medicine or salt. Is this true? If so I can easily just take the Elodea and move it to an empty tank for a couple of weeks, then reintroduce it to the fish tank after the waiting period.

Anybody have experience or opinions on this?

Thanks, Eric

Firstly, I would keep the plants in the tank while curing. After all, they make the fish feel saver while loosing any spore of this parasite.

But itch is a parasite, which wil ldie when the spres don't find a new host within 72 hours after hatching, and hatching can be anywhere from 24-96 hours, depending on the temperature and the kind or itch, from releasing a fish by a mature itch organism

So, after 168 hours - that is a full week - any rest of itch should be dead. Waiting another weet for safety feels a bit much, but I would certainly wait this fortnight. But no longer.

I did heat and salt treatment (no meds) for ich in my 45g and didn't lose any plants, fish, or snails.

This is my go info on ich which should explain things:

Freshwater Ich
Symptoms: Fish look like they have little white salt grains on them and may scratch against objects in the tank.

White spot disease (Ichthyopthirius multifiliis) is caused by a protozoan with a life cycle that includes a free-living stage. Ich grows on a fish --> it falls off and attaches to gravel or tank glass --> it reproduces to MANY parasites --> these swarmers then attach to other fish. If the swarmers do not find a fish host, they die in about 3 days (depending on the water temperature).

Therefore, to treat it, medicine must be added to the display tank to kill free-living parasites. If fish are removed to quarantine, parasites living in the tank will escape the treatment -- unless ALL fish are removed for about a week in freshwater or three weeks in saltwater systems. In a reef tank, where invertebrates are sensitive to ich medications, removing the fish is the only option. Some people think that ich is probably dormant in most tanks. It is most often triggered by temperature fluctuations.

Remedy: For most fish, use a medication with formalin and malachite green. These are the active ingredients in many ich medications at fish shops. Some products are Kordon's Rid Ich and Aquarium Products' Quick Cure. Just read the label and you may find others. Check for temperature fluctuations in the tank and fix them to avoid recurrences. Note that tetras can be a little sensitive to malachite green, so use it at half the dose.

Use these products as directed (usually a daily dose) until all of the fish are spot-free. Then dose every three days for a total of four more doses. This will kill any free-swimming parasites as they hatch out of cysts.

Another remedy is to raise the tank temperature to about 90 deg F and add 1 tsp/gallon salt to the water. Not all fish tolerate this.

Finally, one can treat ich with a "transfer method.'' Fish are moved daily into a different tank with clean, conditioned, warmed water. Parasites that came off of the fish are left behind in the tank. After moving the fish daily for a week, the fish (presumably cured) can be put back into the main tank. The disadvantage of this method is that it stresses both fish and fishkeeper.

from http://fins.actwin.com/mirror/disease-fw.html#ich

Basically, if there are no fish left in an "ich tank" for about a week, the ich should be gone. Or you could remove the plants from the tank, treat the fish and return the plants. But as noted above a lot of plants can tolerate salt for short periods. I have had a tank heater break and I found the tank at 106F. Most of the fish, besides the Hypancistrus, were dead but the the plants also survived. I can not say how long the tank had been that warm however.

Hi Everyone,

Thanks for the feedback. To summarize your experiences, there are a few options for me to follow, but they all come down to either (1) leaving the plants with the fish and using a combination of salt and heat for a minimum of one week, or (2) removing all the plants to a fish-free tank or moving all the fish to a plant-free tank, then treating the fish with my Rid Ich Plus and allowing the plants to get clean by letting any parasites on them die from fish deprivation.

Since my tetras do spend much time hiding in and swimming through the plants, and since I don't like to use medicine if I don't need to, I'll start by using option (1) and see how it goes - if the fish don't get better, or if the fish don't tolerate the salt and heat as well as I'd like, then I'll use option (2).

TTA, thanks for providing the reference website. Although I haven't seen this specific site, I did read a couple of other sites with similar content.

As an aside, I am fascinated by our (referring to all people, not specifically any of us on PC) general lack of understanding of disease in lower vertebrates (e.g., tropical fish for us on PC, and amphibians for myself at home and at work). For example, there is a meaningful contradiction, or at least ambiguity, expressed in the text of the fins.actwin.com website:

http://fins.actwin.com/mirror/disease-fw.html#ich wrote:... [the Ich parasite] falls off [a host fish] and attaches to gravel or tank glass --> it reproduces to MANY parasites --> these swarmers then attach to other fish. If the swarmers do not find a fish host, they die in about 3 days (depending on the water temperature).

...Some people think that ich is probably dormant in most tanks.

According to these statements,

1. if there are no fish in the tank, then the parasite would die. Okay, I believe that, and if it's true then it should mean that a fish-free aquarium is also free of Ich parasites after a certain amount of time elapses.
2. the parasite may exist in a dormant state in most fish tanks, without infecting the healthy fish that are also present in the tank, with the inference being that it waits until the fish are weakened or stressed to attack and parasitize the fish. Okay, I admit that I've always believed this too, at least about any fish tank that frequently gets new fish (as potential sources of the Ich parasite), even when the average aquarist can look at their fish and the fish look healthy and unstressed, such that the person thinks, "My fish show no signs of Ich."

And there's the ambiguity - If the fish aren't infected, do all the free Ich parasites (i.e., those not attached to fish) die? or do they just lay dormant in the tank waiting for the fish to get stressed?

I suppose that both of these might be conditionally true, given the information in the first statement quoted from the fins.actwin.com website: The website mentions three stages of the life cycle of the Ich parasite: the stage that leaves the fish and swims in the tank, which turns into the stage that attaches to aquarium surfaces after falling off of the fish, and the stage (referred to above as "swarmers") that hatches out from this one and swims around looking for new fish to parasitize. These correspond to stages "B," "C," and "D" in the attached image. High temperatures help with treatment because high temps accelerate the rate at which the cysts hatch out new swarmers, and it is the swarmers that will die spontaneously in a few days if they don't find any fish to parasitize. But the name "cyst" suggests that this life stage may also be able to go dormant, since lots of other microorganisms which go dormant are able to do this by forming cysts.

So here is what I wonder - Even with high temperatures and salt therapy, will the high heat therapy force all the cysts to hatch out into swarmers which then die in a few days in the fish-free tank, leaving the aquarium free of the parasite? Or will some of these cysts go dormant and survive the heat/salt treatment in order to reinfect fish at a much later time when new fish are added to the tank? Since I've never read anything definitive about this matter, my suspicion is that we just don't know for sure. If someone knows the answer, I'd love to hear it. But otherwise, I refuse to lose sleep over this, waiting for it to be resolved - I'm just going to go on with life.

Again, thank you all. Have a nice day, Eric

There is another possibility which you did not mention. In many cases a pathogen is present at low levels. At such lever the natural defenses of a fish are adequate to prevent issues. However, if conditions change such that the pathogen multiplies or the fish's defenses are weakened, the result is the fish gets sick.

Further, saying some believe ich is dormant in most tanks makes it a belief and not a fact. But like almost anything aquarium related there is actually a ton of science out there, it is almost never on fish sites however. So you can try this and learn as much as you want. Go to Google scholar here http://scholar.google.com/ then enter "Ichthyophthirius multifiliis" (w/o the "). If you limit the time period to 1998- 2015 you should get over 2,700 papers etc. You find this sort of thing:

-Effects of Sodium Percarbonate and Garlic Extract on Ichthyophthirius multifiliis Theronts and Tomocysts: In Vitro Experiments
-Protective immunity of Nile tilapia against Ichthyophthirius multifiliis post-immunization with live theronts and sonicated trophonts
-Prevention of an Initial Infestation of Ichthyophthirius multifiliis in Channel Catfish and Blue Tilapia by Potassium Permanganate Treatment

This one should be interesting but you need institutional access to see the full study.

Ichthyophthirius multifiliis Fouquet and Ichthyophthiriosis in Freshwater Teleosts
Advances in Parasitology Volume 59, 2005, Pages 159–241

R.A. Matthews

Abstract

The ciliate Ichthyophthirius multifiliis is an important pathogen of freshwater teleosts occurring in both temperate and tropical regions throughout the world. The disease, ichthyophthiriosis, accounts for significant economic losses to the aquaculture industry, including the ornamental fish trade, and epizootics in wild fish populations can result in mass kills. This review attempts to provide a comprehensive overview of the biology of the parasite, covering the free-living and parasitic stages in the life cycle, host–parasite interactions, and the immune response of host and immune evasion strategies by the parasite. Emphasis on the immunological aspects of infection within the fish host, including molecular studies of i-antigens, reflects the current interest in this subject area and the quest to develop a recombinant vaccine against the disease. The current status of methods for the control of ichthyophthiriosis is discussed, together with new approaches in combating this important disease.

from http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 8X05590031

The science is out there. But what you will be reading is a far cry from the link info I initially provided.

Thanks TTA. That one specific article you highlighted does look particularly interesting and relevant. I just tried to download it but alas, my university doesn't have access to that journal - I'll have to request the article by interlibrary loan.

And you're right about my use of the word "believe." In fact, I purposefully retained the website's language of "believe" for precisely your point: While I've always been under the belief that Ich cysts survive in the substrate, I've never read the science to support or refute it. And to be honest, until now I've never needed to search for the science on this; I've been relatively blessed in the past to have had very few fish suffer with Ich infestations, and I've always treated them successfully (in unplanted tanks) with Rid Ich.

Indeed, I have no doubt that there is a lot of scientific research on the Ich parasite, given its economic impact, and I will use the Google scholar search engine (and my own institution's databases) to see if I can identify any articles that can give an answer to this specific question. Unfortunately, if I can't locate an article that directly addresses this question relatively quickly, I probably won't be able to do a deeper search any time soon, given the 1,000's of papers that exist. Our semester starts Monday and I'm still prepping syllabi and new lectures, so I've got other priorities this weekend and in the coming weeks.

Regarding your "third possibility," I did consider that but I omitted it from my list because I lumped it in with my second option - that the dormant parasite is still present, waiting to infect the fish. Remember, when I made my list of two options I was writing about treating a fish-free tank, not a tank with fish. Thus, once healthy fish are reintroduced, the infection level that results with healthy fish might be so low that it is essentially invisible to the average aquarist. That's why I wrote, "the fish look healthy and unstressed, such that the person thinks, 'My fish show no signs of Ich.' "

Finally, in my comment about our general lack of understanding about disease in lower vertebrates, I did not mean that there's no research out there on the subject; I meant that on a practical level this doesn't filter into society, which I think is your point too. At my work, various people keep fish and amphibians as part of their research. We have a veterinarian (trained in these animals, not just dogs and cats) to consult with when our animals get sick. But the reality is, to do a proper workup on one sick animal is typically not realistic or it's cost prohibitive: How much are you going to spend trying to diagnose and cure the sickness in a $4 frog? To prevent its spread to other animals in the same tank, the animal is more likely to be quarantined and just observed, or treated with a rather basic guess at the right antibiotic or antifungal medicine - no different from what a hobbyist would do at home. And if the animal is having a nonpathogen-based problem (liver problems, kidney problems, etc), then forget it - nobody is going to draw blood samples from these small animals to run diagnostic tests on things like red blood cell count or plasma electrolytes, etc.

I wasn't trying to whine or complain about anything. Merely, I was just reflecting on how most people, myself included, are limited in how well we understand the medical care of our fishes and related animals.

Cheers, Eric

There also seems to be decent evidence that fish which get ich and survive it have some degree of immunity to it in the future. I have only had ich in tanks twice in 14 years and both times it came in with new fish. One I had the fish in quarantine and the other time I risked no Q and paid the price. The fish in the firstcase were tetras and danios. Only the danios survived. The next time it came in with corys that I put into a tank with a bn pair and some offspring. I lost a bunch of bn along with all the corys.

As far as i can tell malachite green is still one of the most effective treatments in out tanks. It is prohibited in many places for use in fish farmed as food.

Okay, good to know. Maybe the immunity you mention explains why I haven't had many problems with Ich before with any fish (not old, not new), and no recurrence after the cases were treated.

Really sad news to report. For the last 8 days, I've been using the salt and heat strategy (1 tablespoon salt per 5 gallons at 87-89 degrees F; 40% water change every other day) to treat the Ich, and I left the plants in the tank. After 2-3 days, I noticed lots of little bubble-like bumps on all the Elodea leaves and some leaves started dying and falling off the plants. At the same time, the Ich was getting worse, so I added an Ich medicine called Ick Guard (by Tetra brand), which claims it is safe for plants. I treated with Ick Guard daily for five days following the instructions and for the last 2 days all the fish have shown no signs of Ich. Yeah!...

So I planned on ending the treatment this weekend and doing a final water change and getting back to normal. Then in the last day or so, ALL the plants just failed, with no leaves remaining on any stems- I think the salt and heat caused this, but the medicine didn't help. But not one fish died. Not only were they all alive, but they were active and feeding and looking really great!

... Until today...

While I was at work, the filtration system clogged on all the dead leaves dropped by the Elodea and the water flow stopped completely. I imagine that with the water temperature at 87F and no circulation, oxygen levels must have fallen rapidly, and as the first fish died, they probably also fouled the water. When I got home, all 8 silver tip tetras were dead; 4 out of 6 golden tetras were dead; and 2 out of 8 Buenos Aires tetras were dead.

Needless to say, when I found them I did a huge (60%) water change, cleaned out the filter intake, and vacuumed up all the leaves. I'm hoping that the remaining 8 fish survive.

I learned several things from this:
1) remove the plants when I treat for Ich
2) but if I do leave plants in, and if plants start dying, get the leaves and debris out ASAP
3) Silver tip tetras are very sensitive to temporary hypoxia at high temps (or whatever killed them), but
4) Buenos Aires tetras are probably more tolerant of temporary hypoxia at high temps

Hi all,
You are right about the salt, most higher plants react fairly badly to it, which is one reason why you only get an extremely limited range of angiosperms in sea water.

The other issue is that water at higher temperature holds less of all the dissolved gases, so as well as lower oxygen levels, you have low CO2 levels.

cheers Darrel

Another lesson I'll take from this experience is...
If I remove plants, I should add spawning mops in order to recreate the hiding places which I lose when the plants are gone. After the medical treatment is finished, I can simply boil the mops to clean them and kill any pathogens that might be attached to the mops.

Dang, I'm still troubled by this.

ich has a life span. 2 weeks away from live fish should leave the plants ich-free.

One bit of good news:

The dead Buenos Aires tetras were just two days past the "14-day guarantee" from PetSmart, but PetSmart still allowed me to return them for replacement. Alas, I wasn't so lucky with the silver tip and golden tetras; they were bought from a different store and I'd had them a little longer, so no returns possible.

Also, PetSmart told me that their return policy allows customers to return and replace fish while the fish are still alive if I think they look unhealthy. Prior to this, I thought the fish had to die before PetSmart would allow you to return them. Since my Ich outbreak started with, and was restricted to, the Buenos Aires tetras from PetSmart, I could have taken the infected fish back on the first day I observed the Ich. Of course, I would have still needed to treat the tank, because removing a few infected fish wouldn't prevent other fish from getting Ich if it had already spread to the tank, but it is good to know that the PetSmart return policy is so broad if I need it in the future.

Apologies I have bumped this thread. Very late this evening I discovered some tetras I added after QT to my ABN tank covered in white spots. Seeing as they were the only fish affected and ABNs and mustard spots were not I removed the affected tetras done a large WC and upped the temp and aeration. In the hope it would buy some time for the plecos. Until I can get some protozin first thing tomorrow morning to start treatment. Also there's brand new plants do I move them out sooner I mean tonight. And remove plant residues from filters and tank before treatment starts.
Obviously I can give params. Are as follows.
Ammonia 0
Nitrites0
Nitrates 30
PH 7.2
Temp going towards 30
Last fish added. Mustard spots had a quite a while both were completely
healthy. Obviously the tetras seemingly healthy but now have white spots. ABNs don't have spots but haven't been eating much.

.

Hi Teresa, Bumping the thread seems totally appropriate.

Sorry to hear the bad news. Yes, I would remove the plants ASAP. Just put the plants aside for enough time in isolation (not with any other fish) that any possible ich organisms on the plants have time to mature to a stage where they die without new fish hosts. After that the plants should be safe to return to the tank.

Do not allow plants to die and clog your aeration equipment.

Good luck, Eric

Thanks Eric will put plants elsewhere for the duration of treatment ,obviously good circulations a must so don't want plant matter clogging filters.

Yep, the clogged filter is what did my fish in. And don't be afraid of (temporarily) really high temps; almost any tropical fish can tolerate higher than normal temps for a few days, as long as oxygen and water quality are good. And the higher the temp, the faster you will drive the ich out of your system, with the proper meds.

Eric

This morning ABNs are OK as are mustard spots. Will be removing plants water change and start treatment.

ABNs have deteriorated, very bad now not sure if they'll survive. Still doing all I can. Re the plants I'm dumping them as I've been told some very nasty strains of whitespot around. If ABNs survive, I'm definitely not chancing it, so will get new plants.

Hi all,
You can use eSHA Exit with plants in the tank.

cheers Darrel

Can't get hold of it but it's on order looks like ABNs won't survive now.

Hi Teresa,

How are your BNs today?

Eric

Two females in a very bad way in one hospital tank, that I actually should have known better and QTd longer, but they were fine when they went in
It was definitely the tetras. And original pair with no whitespot showing as spots as yet, and also the panaqolus albomaculatus that havent got white spots, but they are not eating in yet another tank. Moved them from the whitespot riddled tank in order to save them. According to what TTA said above it might help so I'm going on this theory here. The two females with the cysts they are completely covered, so I guessed when those cysts burst they are all at risk of succumbing to it. Obviously it's a completely rubbish situation. On top feel like a complete and utter wombat. So in effect now I'm trying to save the ones from the ones which are badly affected. Hopefully I can save them all. Ialso now have a third new adult misidentified mustard spot in QT. I had success in bringing the first two round look like they need to go on a diet now. Hopefully the whitespot will be beaten. Then obviously I need to decontaminate original tank.

Following this post due to an outbreak in my L199/Discus tank thanks to the misses adding some "guppies" she felt sorry for

Neo wrote:Following this post due to an outbreak in my L199/Discus tank thanks to the misses adding some "guppies" she felt sorry for

Aw, dude. You did not just throw your wife "under the bus"... Oh, wait, you DID! You better pray she doesn't see this, or ich won't be the only outbreak you have on your discus!

i'm thinking its clear now but will see in a day or so, and no not under a bus "yet"

Lost one.

Sorry, Teresa. Hopefully no more.

Eric

One of the very badly affected ones. In the same tank the spots are clearing up on the other one but she's not looking well, I think this is aside from the whitespot. In the other tank still no outward symptoms of whitespot on my original pair and 2 mustard spots. Put it this way think I have learned a hard lesson re QT. The new third mustard spot, will be QTd properly.