PlanetCatfish.com

There are so many people on here with years of experience and knowledge of fish keeping and I look up to all of you so much. Your knowledge of catfish astounds me. In fish keeping, specifically learning about and (to a lesser extent, due to space constraints) keeping catfish, I've found a passion.

I'm currently working towards being a marine aquarist at an aquarium, but this site makes me want to rethink that and consider pursuing a degree in ichthyology instead.

I'm 20 years old and, to be frank, exceptionally bright. But not in any sort of college - I had a rough time with it when I tried due to a bunch of outside factors and haven't gone back. But I've had so many people, intelligent people in challenging fields, comment on how smart I am and that I need to be in school. That's something I'm still debating. As it stands, I've been able to get by in the aquarium industry on intelligence alone, no schooling, and would have already been moved up to work with sharks in the facility I'm currently working at were it not for a speed bump I hit. (Or rather, a car that cut in front of me.)

Which brings me to all of you. What is keeping catfish to you? Is this just a hobby that you are very passionate about? Do you have a relevant degree? Have you gotten to do any research on the subject?

As I said, I am in awe of the wealth of knowledgeable people on this site. I would love to learn about and experience as much as I can of keeping catfish. So how did you get to where you are today and what would you recommend I do to eventually get there?

I've got a degree in computing, it's a hobby for me.

Jools

It's a hobby for me as well; I can see how for some people it's a life style.

Good question, and I think for many of us on the site blur the lines.

Jools' academic background may be in computers, and he may consider himself a hobbyist, but he has been paid by magazines to write on catfishes, for photos he has taken, and to travel and speak on catfishes. Under most definitions, to include that of the IRS, that makes him professional writer, photographer, and presenter on catfishes. He has contributed to books and scientific papers and had his work cited in both. That technically qualifies him as at least as an amateur ichthyologist.

Many Planetcatfish contributors have been cited in popular and academic papers more than some "professionals" in science ever are in their career.

Few of us however make a living from catfishes. Barbie does on the commercial side and Heok Hee does as a professional scientist. Most of the rest of us make a living doing something else full time.

Speaking for myself, I like that my passion is not linked to my profession. It allows me to devote the amount of time to it I wish without feeling I "have" to do it. Other than water changes anyway. Those damn things just don't go away.

-Shane

Hi Narelle,
Parts of your story remind me of my start, although there are definitely also some differences:

Like you, I consider myself a newbie to catfish keeping; I’ve been keeping catfish for only two years. And like you, I decided at a relatively young age that I wanted to find some career with these animals, perhaps as an ichthyologist (although back then, I despised catfish; I liked Rift Lake cichlids at the time).

By 18 years old, I wanted to work at a zoo or aquarium, specifically in a captive breeding program for endangered species (not that I knew of any captive breeding programs involving fish, but I thought that this is what public zoos and aquariums were for). So I went to college. I thought I would get a PhD in zoology and then work in a zoo/aquarium getting fish or other animals to breed (I didn’t realize that most people with PhD’s in zoology DON’T work in zoos; they work in universities or research labs, LOL).

I don’t know what happened to you in college to put you off, but I can tell you that my first year of college did not go well grade-wise; even so, my mediocre grades didn’t dissuade me from wanting to be a zoologist. In my 3rd year of college, I wanted to join a lab that was working on fish reproduction, but there were no fish biologists at my university. The professor with the next closest interest was a herpetologist studying desert-adapted frogs from South America. I thought, “Hey, fish, frogs... they’re almost the same thing. Okay, I’ll work on frogs.”

For the next two years, I took my normal college classes, but I also studied Phyllomedusine tree frogs and Budgett’s frog, Lepidobatrachus laevis in this lab. With my professor, we became the first people to successfully breed Lepidobatrachus in captivity (that was 1982). Breeding those frogs sealed the deal for me - I knew I was going to study animal reproduction (now frogs instead of fish, but that only because of circumstance), and still hopefully be a part of a captive breeding program as a career.

I went on to earn higher degrees, and to this day I work in the field of amphibian reproduction, although I never did get that job in a zoo/aquarium that I wanted so badly. But I came pretty close, and I wouldn’t trade my current job for the world. I consider myself blessed to be able to study animals breeding in tanks, and to get paid to learn about how and why they do what they do.

Like others have expressed above, I too am into fish for hobby, and there is definitely passion here. Although I don’t keep catfish for my job, the two activities are definitely related and they actually “feed off each other” (case in point, just view the thread on gravel depth, bacteria and nitrogen metabolism - work and play totally blended together here).

From my perspective, whatever job I did wind up with, I wanted it to feel like it wasn’t a job. I love what I do and I’m in no rush to retire.

Going back to your original questions about how we get where we are, and how does college fit into your life, my thoughts are these:

I don’t believe that anyone can know whether or not you should go back to college; that has to be your decision. College is not just an education, it’s really more of a tool to help you get to where you want to go, but only IF you need it. (But you may not need it: As Shane stated above, there are lots of people on this site who are brilliant ichthyologists, even though they don’t have a formal degree in ichthyology: You can do A LOT without a BS, MS, or PhD degree, which by the way, stand for BullS***, More S***, and “Piled higher and Deeper,” if you can pardon my gutter mouth).

Having said that, I admit that I’m a college professor and I’m biased that college is a good thing. I would add that a college education is not just about WHAT you learn, but also WHO you meet and WHAT OPPORTUNITIES come your way (this is what I meant above by it being a tool to help you get where you're going). If I hadn’t met that professor studying frogs, I never would have gotten into amphibian husbandry; and it was my time with that professor that opened many doors for me later, including my graduate school opportunities and ultimately my career.

If you are seriously considering going back to college, don’t just go back to your neighborhood college and take any old classes. Use the internet to look for schools that have professors doing research in a field that interests you for a career, and attend their school. Even before you arrive, contact the professors directly, express your interest and let them know you’re coming; this can get your foot in the door for unique educational and career opportunities. Use the chance to get involved in the professors’ projects. Likewise, if you are still working at the aquarium you mentioned, talk to some of your coworkers or supervisors about professors they know who might be interested in mentoring a bright, motivated person like yourself.

Let me close by saying that there is nothing that excites a teacher more than meeting a student with a natural interest and drive to “go further” than normal in a particular field. With your knowledge and your passion, you can go far (with or without the college diploma).

Okay, my fingers are tired now. I wish you the best in your future, both occupationally and in your catfish hobby!

Eric
P.S., Another trait of myself (obviously) and most college professors I know? Being long-winded!

I am a hobbyist but just a piker compared to many here.

My advice as a recent retiree, do what you love to do. You have a long life ahead of you. Go for the sheepskin and follow your heart. It may take you away from catfish but whatever you do, you will be doing what you love.

I have always loved keeping fish and always knew that I wanted it to be my career. I have a degree in aquaculture from Florida Tech which helped open a few doors for me. I was a diver at the National Aquarium in Baltimore for a few years too. It seems like our paths have paralleled each other somewhat.

Research for the sake of research didn't really thrill me so I didn't go down the university path. I migrated to the commercial aspect and now work on the manufacturing side of the aquarium industry. Keeping fish is my hobby and passion and now I get to design and test the products that make it possible while doing what I love.

I wish you good luck in your endeavors and encourage you to rethink the college path. A lot more doors will be open to you with a degree.

Andy

Here's some thoughts on the academic route. I took the choice of wanting to try and make a living out of studying fishes. Ten years of study resulted in an undergrad degree in marine and freshwater biology, a master's degree in taxonomy, a PhD in molecular genetics, and a short-term research post in the Amazon.

Sounds great, but one has to sacrifice an awful lot in academia: family, friends, relationships, even pets, and not just once, many many times over. And the worst thing is, that there's actually very little hope at the end of it all, of getting a job in what you were trained for 10 years to do. This diagram explains it all really, and note that this is just the attrition rate for people post PhD. Imagine how many master's and undergrad students drop out earlier. Research jobs are few and far between, making them incredibly competitive. In short there's a massive oversupply of biologists in relation to the number of available jobs, and only the most genuinely outstanding people will ever make it (myself not included).

Hope I haven't put you off? Just some things to think about.

racoll wrote:Sounds great, but one has to sacrifice an awful lot in academia: family, friends, relationships, even pets, and not just once, many many times over. And the worst thing is, that there's actually very little hope at the end of it all, of getting a job in what you were trained for 10 years to do. This diagram explains it all really, and note that this is just the attrition rate for people post PhD. Imagine how many master's and undergrad students drop out earlier. Research jobs are few and far between, making them incredibly competitive. In short there's a massive oversupply of biologists in relation to the number of available jobs, and only the most genuinely outstanding people will ever make it (myself not included).

Racoll, you make very important, valid points, and Narelle, you would be wise to heed these cautions. Absolutely yes, there is a glut of PhD's roaming the country... no, the world... looking for academic positions (professorships) at universities and colleges. Nowadays (not back in my time, lucky for me), people really do need to be the cream of the cream to grab one of those jobs successfully. And, as Andy described, academia may not provide you the job satisfaction you would want.

But while I agree with your illustration, bleak as it may appear, I would put a different twist on the potential trajectories depicted in the picture: True, if you want a college degree in order to become a professor, or a full time researcher at a university, then the future will expect much of you, and you may (but I wouldn't say must) need to sacrifice your life for the job. But if you are not looking for that academic golden egg, then all the other job options in the picture do not become "booby prizes," fall-back disappointments for a person who didn't go all the way; instead, they become the goal, and the challenge for the student is to figure out which of those alternative pathways will help them find happiness. At my university, we don't offer PhDs to students, but we do offer Masters degrees. Most of our Masters students enter the program PLANNING to go onto some professional career, whether it be with a govt job like Fish & Game or US Forestry Service, or in a medical field, in a private or public-sector job like at an aquarium/zoo or with a commercial company, or with an environmental group... That's why they come to get their Masters. And the experiences they get as students - additional education, experience with public speaking as teaching assistants, more writing experience as they prepare their theses - along with contacts they develop and letters of recommendation they get (not just from professors, but often from companies they work with) help them stand out in their job searches.

I agree, if Narelle has a passion for working with fish directly, getting a PhD to become a professor is probably not the right way to go. And I get your point, Racoll, that lots of biologists, with all levels of degrees, may end up in a career they didn't want, outside of anything biological. But if Narelle does go back to school, she can go as far as she sees fit, then use her opportunities to find any fish-related job that makes her happy, and she shouldn't feel like she "settled." And if she heeds your advice, she can do so without surrendering her life, friends, etc.

I hope this doesn't sound like I'm arguing with you, because I agree with what you said; I guess I just feel more optimistic about all those other trajectories in the picture, and I think that the college education can be part of the path to those jobs rather than being perceived as conflicting with them.

Cheers, Eric

bekateen wrote:I hope this doesn't sound like I'm arguing with you

Not at all.

bekateen wrote:I guess I just feel more optimistic about all those other trajectories in the picture, and I think that the college education can be part of the path to those jobs rather than being perceived as conflicting with them.

Absolutely, but my concern is that the college education (I'm talking PhD here) trains you solely for working in research, and yet only 3.5% of PhD graduates get research jobs. That to me is a very worrying statistic. The transferable skills learnt during a PhD are often undervalued in other careers because someone with a PhD is viewed as a person who knows a lot about one thing and nothing about anything else.

racoll wrote:Absolutely, but my concern is that the college education (I'm talking PhD here) trains you solely for working in research, and yet only 3.5% of PhD graduates get research jobs. That to me is a very worrying statistic. The transferable skills learnt during a PhD are often undervalued in other careers because someone with a PhD is viewed as a person who knows a lot about one thing and nothing about anything else.

I agree fully. As far as I'm concerned, the Masters is usually the best place to stop unless you want to pursue those hard-to-compete-for jobs in academia. My appreciation of the Masters is, as I stated in a prior post, the extra personal experience and contact opportunities it provides over most Bachelors degrees. And a Masters can be done in most schools I know in just two years, sometimes less. A Bachelors degree can get you into many jobs, but without the Masters, promotion or advancement may be limited.
Cheers, Eric

I agree fully. As far as I'm concerned, the Masters is usually the best place to stop unless you want to pursue those hard-to-compete-for jobs in academia. My appreciation of the Masters is, as I stated in a prior post, the extra personal experience and contact opportunities it provides over most Bachelors degrees. And a Masters can be done in most schools I know in just two years, sometimes less. A Bachelors degree can get you into many jobs, but without the Masters, promotion or advancement may be limited.

Great advice!

But ... those 96.5% of people with PhDs have to be getting jobs somewhere, and my hunch is that they are taking the jobs that should be offered to people with Master's, thus creating a qualification-inflation problem, and increasing overall competition for all related jobs in the sector.

racoll wrote:But ... those 96.5% of people with PhDs have to be getting jobs somewhere, and my hunch is that they are taking the jobs that should be offered to people with Master's, thus creating a qualification-inflation problem, and increasing overall competition for all related jobs in the sector.

Yes, this is true... And likewise, I think people with Masters degrees put pressure on the jobs designed around the Bachelors degree. And without being mean to Bachelors degrees, I think that's the benefit of the Masters degrees - with relatively little extra education, a Masters makes the person more competitive for such jobs than the Bachelors degree.

One thing I've observed over the years is that people with Bachelors degrees who can't find a job that interests them, and the PhDs who either can't find placements or who for ego reasons won't "sink so low" as to accept jobs meant for Bachelors and Masters degrees, are forced to take more entrepreneurial paths in their careers and find ways to essentially invent jobs for themselves, either in their own small businesses or in other peoples' businesses.

Finally, the one safety valve that people with Bachelors and Masters have against people with PhDs is that some companies and govt agencies won't hire PhDs when the degree is not required because the PhDs are "overqualified." I don't know how prevalent this is, but I've personally encountered it before and I know others who have too. This won't get rid of most of those PhDs you mentioned, Racoll, but it will take some out of the job market. And I don't know why, but I haven't seen so much of this overqualified rejection occurring for people with Masters degrees seeking jobs for Bachelors degrees (I wonder if it's because there is a certain social snobbishness that can be found among many PhDs that is not so prominent for Masters, or that people with 10-15 years of college expect to be paid more or given more power/authority than people with 5-7 years of college).

Narelle, I think you have a lot of advice here about the pros and cons of college educations; clearly, there's no right or wrong, no one-size-fits-all answer for you about college. I'm curious: How do you see your future progressing? You seem to have already made some very admirable plans, or at least developed some great ideas, but you also seem to have hit some barriers. What's urging you on? What doors do you see in front of you? Do you feel like being a professional aquarist (if there is such a thing ) and being an ichthyologist are at odds with each other? If so, why? What do you see yourself doing as an ichthyologist that you wouldn't be doing as a professional aquarist?

- Eric

Thank you all for responding! I really appreciate all of the advice and discussion.

bekateen wrote: Narelle, I think you have a lot of advice here about the pros and cons of college educations; clearly, there's no right or wrong, no one-size-fits-all answer for you about college. I'm curious: How do you see your future progressing? You seem to have already made some very admirable plans, or at least developed some great ideas, but you also seem to have hit some barriers. What's urging you on? What doors do you see in front of you? Do you feel like being a professional aquarist (if there is such a thing ) and being an ichthyologist are at odds with each other? If so, why? What do you see yourself doing as an ichthyologist that you wouldn't be doing as a professional aquarist?

- Eric

My main dilemma is that I don't know if I want to limit my options to being an aquarist at an aquarium. I love the place I work at and the work I've already gotten to do with the animals. But the problem is the facility I work at, as with most any I might look to work at in the future, is almost exclusively salt water fish. Which I do also love very much. I love working with elasmobranchs.
The reason I feel it's a bit one or the other for me is that the guy who would be my boss under that department is well known and respected throughout aquariums across the country and I have already very much impressed him. I have no doubt I would be immediately accepted into that department upon applying. And with as much clout as he has in the industry and as much as I have impressed him, if I were to try to move after working for him to another facility his name and recommendation would make a huge deal of difference. I think I could get by without a degree. Which would mean saving me a lot of debt, because people working for aquariums make pennies.

If I were to pursue ichthyology instead, I could focus more on the freshwater animals and ecosystems I've come to love and would have a wider variety of options. I am a bit interested, in theory, in doing research, though I don't much know what that would be like beyond theory. I'm very interested in behavior and intelligence in fish (both bony and cartilaginous) and would very much love to delve further into that.

But to be honest, I really am just not sure where I want to go from here. The guy I'll likely end up marrying is going into architecture and is halfway through his schooling. If I go the route where I skip the degree, his ability to get a job is going to take precedence over mine and we'll move to where ever that is. If there's an aquarium nearby, I'll work there, but if not I'll look for a job at a pet store. I do feel like I could be happy just working at a pet store and keeping my hobby at home (I'm already on the path to a fish room - I always joke that I'm turning the house into an aquarium), but I don't know if I want to limit myself to that.
If I do get a degree, it will mean us being apart longer (his school is in a different state - I hate to say that this is a factor, but the past three years apart have been hard enough, I would be tacking on considerably more). It would also mean that we would have to try to find a balance between our two career paths when deciding where to take jobs and move to. And eventually, one of us will have to step away from our work when it's time to have kids. I feel like I would still be happy with just my fish and kids at home if it was just an aquarium or a pet store I was leaving, but I don't know how easily I'd be able to step away from doing research I'm involved in. And I'd hate to keep pushing back the kid stage for work and get to that point where it's less likely we'd be able to have kids.

And of course, a degree would mean walking into a lot of debt. Which is a daunting prospect, especially if I end up not really using it and right back in an aquarium.

I want to end up doing something I love and I feel like I couldn't really even have a day where I don't feel like being at work if work meant interacting with aquatic life. I also feel like the more academic, research-oriented path would be very fulfilling. If given the opportunity, I would certainly love to get to travel to different areas and learn more about the native species there. But I don't know where that would fit into my personal life. (Though it is possible my guy would be up for this - he's said he likes the idea of traveling and moving a lot, having grown up in the military, and also that he would enjoy being a stay at home dad. But I don't know if that will all still hold true when he's involved in a career he loves. We need to have a long, much more in depth discussion about all of this.)

It's just two very different paths that hugely impact the trajectory of my life thus far. And a big decision that I kind of need to make soon - I need to decide if I'm going to go ahead and get the AA out of the way before I get bumped off of my parents' insurance. (It would be extended were I in school taking so many credit hours and I'm currently seeing a LOT of doctors, some of which are planning to see me for a couple more years. But I don't want to take on that debt if I don't have to, and the whole system and concept behind AA degrees frustrates me greatly. I might have made it through school the first time if I could have skipped that part.)

I guess that's sort of why I wanted to ask about it here. To see if the degree part is worth pursuing and dealing with so many obstacles to achieve.

(( It's early and I'm a bit tired, so I apologize if any of this doesn't quite make sense or seems a little jumbled. ^^;; ))

Narelle wrote:The reason I feel it's a bit one or the other for me is that the guy who would be my boss under that department is well known and respected throughout aquariums across the country and I have already very much impressed him. I have no doubt I would be immediately accepted into that department upon applying. And with as much clout as he has in the industry and as much as I have impressed him, if I were to try to move after working for him to another facility his name and recommendation would make a huge deal of difference. I think I could get by without a degree. Which would mean saving me a lot of debt, because people working for aquariums make pennies.

Major moment of pause here - I believe everything you say here, but I’d warn you that no matter how well-esteemed your boss is, you will only be able to ride his “coat-tails” so far, perhaps to your next job after this. But if you want to move on from there, you will be judged on your own success. Thereafter, with your gifts and intelligence you will do fine, but you will be limited to careers that don’t require degrees (and to be fair, there are probably a lot of these jobs, but I have no idea what they are, other than jobs you’ve mentioned).

Narelle wrote:I am a bit interested, in theory, in doing research, though I don't much know what that would be like beyond theory. I'm very interested in behavior and intelligence in fish (both bony and cartilaginous) and would very much love to delve further into that.

This is where going back to school could help. If you get into another scientist’s lab, you could earn some credit (at most schools in the form of “undergraduate research” or “senior thesis” or something like that) doing research under their supervision. For most students I’ve met, that experience is enough to tell them whether doing research for a living would hold their interest, or at the very least it would help them know if they want to go on for a Masters degree.

Narelle wrote:The guy I'll likely end up marrying is going into architecture and is halfway through his schooling. If I go the route where I skip the degree, his ability to get a job is going to take precedence over mine and we'll move to where ever that is. If there's an aquarium nearby, I'll work there, but if not I'll look for a job at a pet store. I do feel like I could be happy just working at a pet store and keeping my hobby at home (I'm already on the path to a fish room - I always joke that I'm turning the house into an aquarium), but I don't know if I want to limit myself to that.

If I do get a degree, it will mean us being apart longer (his school is in a different state - I hate to say that this is a factor, but the past three years apart have been hard enough, I would be tacking on considerably more). It would also mean that we would have to try to find a balance between our two career paths when deciding where to take jobs and move to. And eventually, one of us will have to step away from our work when it's time to have kids. I feel like I would still be happy with just my fish and kids at home if it was just an aquarium or a pet store I was leaving, but I don't know how easily I'd be able to step away from doing research I'm involved in. And I'd hate to keep pushing back the kid stage for work and get to that point where it's less likely we'd be able to have kids.

(Though it is possible my guy would be up for this - he's said he likes the idea of traveling and moving a lot, having grown up in the military, and also that he would enjoy being a stay at home dad. But I don't know if that will all still hold true when he's involved in a career he loves. We need to have a long, much more in depth discussion about all of this.)

This is what Racoll was talking about. There is no simple answer to this dilemma, so my advice here is going to sound very “mushy:” First, if you and your fiancé are religious, I STRONGLY encourage the two of you to PRAY about this. I’m coming at this from a Christian perspective, but I’d give you the same advice regardless of your religion - if your faith gives you guidance, allow it to shape your heart, and your fiancé’s heart too. Second, whether you work in an aquarium or at some other ichthyological job, then you and your husband will end up facing the dilemmas you mentioned - To what city should you locate for careers (not just school)? Whose job will take priority whenever you have a time conflict? What will you both do when a baby comes along? These will not be unique to working at an aquarium or research job, they are common for every family where both the husband and wife are employed with careers. Again, the answer for this lies with you and your fiancé. Speaking not as a professor but as a husband, I’d say that both of you should make your life decisions with each other’s happiness in mind, and with a mutually-shared goal of finding happiness first and helping each other achieve personal fulfillment, and placing both financial success and career “reputation” much lower on the list.

And as to the prospect of being apart while you’re in school, will he graduate first? If so, would he be open to finding a job in the vicinity of your school while you’re still in college?

Finally on this issue, let me say that I’ve known many couples where both partners were well educated, each was training for a specific “career” before they got married, and one of them gave up their dreams so the other could pursue their’s. While many a couple have gotten this to work, most couples I’ve known in this position come to a moment in time where this decision comes back to haunt them. If you ask me, you two should chart a life together where you both can live your dreams.

Narelle wrote:And of course, a degree would mean walking into a lot of debt. Which is a daunting prospect, especially if I end up not really using it and right back in an aquarium.

Indeed. I can’t give you much advice on this one, other than to point out a couple of “truths” about colleges and universities these days:
1) You are not just a student, you are a consumer - a person looking to buy a product (in this case, an education). With the growing popularity of tech schools and the rising cost of a college education, 4-year colleges and universities are under increasing pressure to stay financially competitive. And because of this, (go on to point #2)...
2) Public colleges (and universities, but I’m going to stop mentioning universities to save space) are A LOT cheaper than private ones, but private colleges know this and are usually much more liberal with financial aid packages. Also, once you enter the school, they REALLY want to keep you. Colleges are assessed for their effectiveness and quality, in part by their graduation rates - when students don’t finish their degrees, it reflects poorly on the college. Colleges know this, so they work with students to keep them enrolled, even if it means enhancing their financial aid package a year or more after they arrive at school (especially if their grades are excellent).
3) If you can get through the Bachelors degree, you may be able to enter a Masters program at no financial cost to you whatsoever. For example, at my school over 3/4ths of our Masters students work as teaching assistants (lab instructors) during their time in the Masters program. For that work, we pay for 100% of their tuition and give them a monthly stipend of over $1200 per months for the year (unfortunately, I don’t know the exact amount). Many colleges need teaching assistants, and if they do, they will have a similar deal available, although the stipend will vary significantly with the cost of living in their area of the country.

Narelle wrote:I want to end up doing something I love and I feel like I couldn't really even have a day where I don't feel like being at work if work meant interacting with aquatic life. I also feel like the more academic, research-oriented path would be very fulfilling. If given the opportunity, I would certainly love to get to travel to different areas and learn more about the native species there.

Indeed, “Doing something [you] love” is the goal to shoot for. I suspect that’s why you started this thread, why you asked your original question. Both paths may ultimately be able to fulfill you, although IMHO, I think that what you describe here (the part about travel and learning about native species) can just as easily be fulfilled without going the academic route. I suspect that many of the people on this website who “do fish stuff” for a living have traveled more than I have in my 23 year academic career.

Narelle wrote:And a big decision that I kind of need to make soon - I need to decide if I'm going to go ahead and get the AA out of the way before I get bumped off of my parents' insurance. (It would be extended were I in school taking so many credit hours and I'm currently seeing a LOT of doctors, some of which are planning to see me for a couple more years. But I don't want to take on that debt if I don't have to, and the whole system and concept behind AA degrees frustrates me greatly. I might have made it through school the first time if I could have skipped that part.)

No easy answer here either. Health insurance is a big deal. Of course with Obamacare, things are changing, so I can’t imagine how things will develop for you. But I do know this - If you’re experiencing a long term medical issue, you have got to keep your insurance, and being able to stay on your parents' insurance will be cheaper than having to buy your own. Most people your age don't have big medical issues and don't realize how messed up things can get until it's too late, until something happens and they have to go to a doctor. It sounds like you are mature beyond your years on this point.

Sorry, I think I switched into "lecture" mode there.
I wish you the best,
Eric

Narelle wrote:But not in any sort of college - I had a rough time with it when I tried due to a bunch of outside factors and haven't gone back

Narelle wrote:the whole system and concept behind AA degrees frustrates me greatly. I might have made it through school the first time if I could have skipped that part.)

Narelle,
I didn't make reference to these lines before, but they may be more important than anything else that has been discussed here. I won't ask you to go into detail about what you meant by these remarks (because they sound very personal), but I would advise you to decide for yourself why you are frustrated by the "system and concept behind AA degrees." If the conditions that led to this feeling still exist, and if you expect them to persist into the future, then going back to school may be a negative experience and a bad idea. But if you feel like the conditions have past, or that things will be different if you can go to a different school (especially one you can hand-select because of one or more professors doing fish research that you'd like to learn from or work with), then returning to school might be a viable option for you.
-Eric

It is interesting reading this from the perspective of someone who stood at these crossroads and decided to work in the private sector rather than pursue my honours degree and beyond. However, that degree was always about getting a job rather than getting a life. The only thing I can add is that in any of these courses of actions, there is a fair amount of luck and it's more about how you react to the things thrown at you rather than plotting a course from the outset.

Jools

I will add from a different perspective...because of my feelings at the time and life managed to get in the way...I did not stay in school. While I have enjoyed my life so far and have accepted the decisions made when younger...I still can not help thinking I wish I would have have stayed in school. I also had a keen interest in biology at the time when I was younger but did not pursue it and now always have that regret nagging at me. Remember school and what happens there is only a means to an end and only a small portion of the rest of your life.

Birger

If you enjoy your job, you will never have to work a day in your life. Find a role model to shadow. If you can't see yourself in their shoes for the next 20-30 years then you should look elsewhere. Don't make the mistake of investing time and money when you are totally unfamiliar with the final product.

Jools, Birger, and Mattcham, all make great points.

mattcham wrote:Find a role model to shadow. If you can't see yourself in their shoes for the next 20-30 years then you should look elsewhere.

Narelle, would you consider the "potential boss" you mentioned to be your "role model" or mentor? Could you see yourself doing their job 20-30 years from now? If so, then to become that person may require their level of education. Does that person (and do comparable people at other aquaria) have college degrees? Answering that may also help you in deciding what to do.

It's REALLY hard to go back to school if you are relying on your full time job to pay for the roof over your head and have hungry mouths to feed. Schooling is best done early before life gets in the way of your dreams. Just something to consider.

Hobby. I did an aquarist internship as an undergrad, and it was just too much routine husbandry for me. I do work in the wildlife/fisheries field professionally, but after a handful of years in the scientific track, the low pay (etc) got old and I switched to the admin track as a career.

I never had any thought to study into job with fish as a science. I'm a software developer - if you have a mobile phone with Android on it, you may well have code in it that I work on now (since I've only worked on it for the last year or so, and it takes about 8-10 months from our "done" until it's in a phone for sale, it's unlikely anyone has much of the work I've don in their actual phone - possibly the Samsung Galaxy Alpha would be the exception to that).

Of course, if you use planet catfish, some of what you do would be related to things I've done. Although lately I've mostly been doing small bug fixes when I find something wrong.

In some ways, I made my other hobby, computers, my work. It pays fro my fish-hobby.

--
Mats

Science is rather hard to get into, but quite easy to get out from.

I mean, if you want to do science, you will have to start from the schooldays, follow the right education, do the right kind of work, and keep doing that.

Any error could cost you your career. I once was told by a professor some PHD subjects are not meant to produce scientists, but to disqualify them. That is, at least, the situation here in the Netherlands.

If you want to consider becoming a scientist, the European answer would be - go for it, and if it happens you later think differently - quite a lot of options will be open for you.

Here it does not really hurt tyour carreer to have a phd.

Hobby for me as only places I could get a job inside the field would be retail or as an general assistant in aquatic centres. No disrespect to the people who do this but simply does not pay enough.

To the education side its a difficult one for me gauge. A BSC 2:2 did me no favours coming out of university. The same as a B:B in IT from college. However fast forward with some luck, hard work and good people its started to help. I will however at the current rate be paying for it for another 6 years (Student loans its the one department that beats the tax man to your pay cheque). It did however pave the way to my current job and is paving the way to my next one with help of a manager who actual believes in developing staff. They are rare and something of an asset to the company they are in and to work with. My education is also in IT perhaps catfish appeal to IT people. We are unloved and unwanted most of the time apart from when people want us to perform a function.

If I could learn enough in aquatics to match my Dad I'd be happy. He was never a catfish fan but each to their own.

I know someone who did a marine biology degree and they now work for a county council as a planning officer. Yes some of the skills are handy but hardly where you would have thought the route would go.

My advice go for a job you are good at and can stand doing. When a hobby becomes your lively hood it destroys the hobby. If you look at a sick fish and the calculation in your mind is how much to treat vs cost of the fish its not a hobby. My dad has never had the same passion for fish again.

Studying fish sounds lovely but in doing so I rather feel it would spoil my enjoyment of them.

Something brought this old thread to mind and I felt inclined to give an update. Reading back through it, I'm very embarrassed by the amount of oversharing I did 5 years ago, but I do recall the situation at the time that led to those comments so I suppose I can forgive my younger self.

A lot has changed in 5 years.

When I wrote this thread, I was contemplating two possible routes to take for my future - forgo a degree and become a professional aquarist at the local public aquarium, or give school another shot to pursue a research career as an ichthyologist. In that time, I've managed to take both paths.

I did end up working as an aquarist for a couple years. Both with the elasmobranchs I talked about, and with the many bony fish, invertebrates, reptiles, and pelicans housed at my facility. I loved my job. Every day at work was a joy. That's what I was looking for, right?

In 2016, I attended the All-Aquarium Catfish Convention and got to rub elbows with many of you wonderful, inspiring hobbyists and experts. Listening to the speakers renewed my desire to go into research. A conversation with one of the speakers, Anton Lamboj, convinced me that I wasn't too late to start out in school. I was inspired. I went home and researched schools and sent out applications.

In 2017, my fiance and I picked up and moved to my chosen school and I began a degree in Wildlife and Fisheries Sciences. My sophomore year of that degree is currently coming to a close. This semester I had the opportunity to do an undergraduate research project, a stomach content analysis of two populations of in a divided stream where one side was in competition with invasive Round Gobies and the other was not.

My current plan is to ultimately pursue a doctorate and vie for one of those few attainable research or professor careers. I'm particularly interested in finding an avenue to research Southeast Asian fishes and their habitats (especially Bagrids, my favorite fishes). I am interested in their behavior and ecology.

Its interesting to return to this thread and read back through all of the excellent advice and experiences everyone shared here, now that I know what paths that 20 year old contemplating her future ended up taking.

Thank you all, again, for all of this wonderful advice that you gave me, and thanks to everyone that makes Planet Catfish what it is. I can pinpoint specific pivotal points in my life that lead me to finding my passion, and finding this website, learning from this wealth of experience, was one of the most important ones.

That's just brilliant to read, thank you for taking the time to update us.

Jools

What Jools said
-Shane