Breeding Longfin Bristlenose...

CanadianGuy · Post by **CanadianGuy** » 21 Nov 2003, 20:52

Is this hard to do?
What kind of water conditions, tank set-ups do they like?
They will be in their own tank so anything goes...

Thanks

oneoddfish · Post by **oneoddfish** » 21 Nov 2003, 22:23

most of us on this forum DON"T support messing with nature in them way's.You see in case you didn't know that's a fish with trait's that are basically man made for man's own messed up reason's.I will admit some of them look cool .BUT in know way would I support that being done.There's plenty of really cool pleco's that people here would be more than happy to help you learn to breed. Just not the genetically engineered stuff.Of course I can't speak for everyone but that the general feeling's if I'm not mistaken..
check out cat-elog you'll find something worth breeding effort's

Post by **Barbie** » 21 Nov 2003, 22:34

I dunno, I bred man made, long finned variant angels for years, and I didn't seem to have any trouble selling them. They've just been around longer, but the process to develop them was really no different. Now they are a staple fish in the hobby.

The longfinned ancistrus aren't a hybrid, just selectively bred for a specific characteristic. I personally don't find that morally reprehensible to the extent that someone seeking help on a forum should be lectured about their bad taste. That's just my personal take on it though, and I'm sure its going to differ from other regulars here. That's what makes the world go around, differing opinions and preferences. Otherwise we'd all keep the same fish, and how boring would that be?

From what I've read, the long finned variants of ancistrus tend to be weaker and more sensitive to water problems than their normal cousins. Conditioning for spawning and the actual spawning itself will be the same, with only 50-60% of the fry showing the long fin characteristics, but most should carry the genetics, if crossed back with another fish carrying the gene. Sorry I can't be of more help.

Barbie

biomechmonster · Post by **biomechmonster** » 21 Nov 2003, 23:04

At least longfinned bristlenoses (while kind of repulsive) aren't as bad as parrot cichlids....where's a hurling emoticon when you need one?!

Post by **Shane** » 22 Nov 2003, 01:10

They may not be as bad as Bloody Parrot Cichlids, but every one of these deformities that is purchased pushes us further down that road. We are only goading on the breeders in Singapore and Florida to take things one step further by purchasing these fish.
I do not want to "flame" Barbie (because I think the world of her), but just because the long-finned angels sold well does not mean much. Glow in the dark plastic plants, flourescent pink gravel, and bubbling mermaids also sell well as do "painted" Corydoras, bubble eye goldfish, and balloon mollies. I agree there is no accounting for taste. However, there are those with different tastes and then there are those with no taste at all.
If you want to breed Ancistrus, purchase some wild stock or fry from a fellow aquarist. Please do not propagate these things.
-Shane

CanadianGuy · Post by **CanadianGuy** » 22 Nov 2003, 04:08

First, I had never heard that the longfin bristlenose was a "man-made" fish..
Second, I did not intend this to be a place for you to voice your politcal statements on animal cruelty/breeding for specific traits...

Please if you do not know the answer to what I am asking then say so or please don't respond...

As far as I knew these plecos were selectivley bred for the longfin characteristic...just like dogs...or do some of you not believe in breeding and keeping dogs??...and what about albinos? They again are selectively bred for a certain trait....is this also "morally reprehensible"??

Please if you do not like something that I happen to, keep it to yourself...I don't need to be told that I have bad taste...we may have differing opinions on what is "attractive" and what isn't...I may think you have bad taste...I may hate something that you find attractive...but I wouldn't tell you so...especially if I had never spoken to you before and didn't know you from Adam!

I don't mean for this to sound so harsh, but I am upset...I came to this site because of it's wealth of information...I had hoped to find help here, not be berated for wanting to breed a fish that you find distasteful...

If the longfin trait of this fish harms it in any way(ie: parrot cichlids) I would reconsider my plans to breed them...and if you have information proving this, then please present it to me in a respectful way...I am open to others opinions...wether they coinside with mine or not...but do not lecture me on doing something that I am just researching at this point...

So if you have any information that will help me in my research please post it...if you don't like what I am asking please don't post...move on to another post...you telling me you think I have bad taste, or find what I think is beautiful to be repulsive, is not going to help me and only shows what a closed-minded, uncaring person you are...

I look forward to hearing some helpful advice in the future..

P.S Thank you, Barbie

GinoInChicago · Post by **GinoInChicago** » 22 Nov 2003, 04:38

I find the longfin Bristlenose to be a beautiful pleco and is even more impressive when its an albino. These fish have been selectively bred for these traits not man made. If you want to see a manmade fish look at the flowerhorn or parrot cichlids. Those are the true monstrosities to the hobby. But selectively brreding fora particular trait is something else altogether. Some of you need to get off your high horse and re-evaluate things. Flaming somebody for wanting to breed a certain type of fish is not the way to do things. I too am planning on breeding the gorgeous plecos. I have some albinos, tho they are not longfins, they came from longfin parents so the should carry the longfin gene. I am currently looking for more of them from another source so I can keep the line strong. Outcrossing is the key just like with angelfish to keeping a strong line of fish. I have some wild caught ancistrus as well which I may introduce into the line to maintain strength and vigor. But as far as the longfin being man made.... In the words of Ebaneezer Scrooge "Bah Humbug!"

Catfish Lover · Post by **Catfish Lover** » 22 Nov 2003, 04:56

I have bred them and they aren't any harder than the normal brown or albino bristle nose.

The genetics are really screwy though. For example, I have a pair of heterozygous long fin browns and they produce equal amounts of four kinds of fish. Brown normal finned, brown long finned, albino normals and albino longs.

I also had a pair of albino long fins that produced only browns. The fry were 50% normal finned and 50% long finned... go figure.

GinoInChicago · Post by **GinoInChicago** » 22 Nov 2003, 05:00

thats what I have heard too. From what I understand there are at least two separate genes for albino. Without having ancistrus with identical albino genes, you won't get albino offspring. Its not as cut and dry as it it with other fish like angels, which with the known genetics can be very predictable.

Post by **Shane** » 22 Nov 2003, 05:04

CanadianGuy,
I am confused by your contradictory response. You said,

First, I had never heard that the longfin bristlenose was a "man-made" fish..

and

As far as I knew these pl*cos were selectivley bred for the longfin characteristic

If you had started in the Cat-eLog you would have seen this sp, Ancistrus sp.(5) and it states,

it is unknown what species is or are involved in this modified fish

You also could have done a search through the Forum before your posting and you would have learned that you were opening a can of worms that many people feel strongly about. My statement about bad taste was certainly not directed to you personally and if you go back and read my first posting I think that you will realize this.

I do not think that the analogy of dog breeds is valid. Mankind has bred various dog breeds throughout history to make his life easier. Dogs have been bred for war, hunting, herding, and various other tasks to make man's life easier. There has been some, limited, hybridization of fish spp for aquaculture purposes and, even though I do not like the idea of hybridizing spp., I can not fault these people as they are trying to bring new food sources to areas of the world where they are much needed. That said, long-finned Ancistrus do not really benefit humans in any substantial way.

Second, I did not intend this to be a place for you to voice your politcal statements on animal cruelty/breeding for specific traits...

I was unaware that YOU did not intend Planetcatfish to be a place for ME to voice my statements. My apologies.
-Shane
PS

The forum rules wrote:
Please inform us of your location in your profile. If you don't feel comfortable giving your city or province, just the country will suffice.

CanadianGuy · Post by **CanadianGuy** » 22 Nov 2003, 05:07

Thanks, Catfish Lover and Gino...this is the kind of help that I needed to breed these beautiful plecos!! I guess I'll have to get quite a few to turn out a decent amount of longfins...

What is the tank set-up that you used, Catfish Lover?...barebottom or is a substrate preferred?

GinoInChicago · Post by **GinoInChicago** » 22 Nov 2003, 06:03

Shane, In CG's defense I looked up bristle nose plecostamus under common name and came up with two entries sp 1 and sp 3 neither of which mentioned the longfin varety. Un less you look it up via scientific name sp.5 doesn't even appear.

Also in regards to his location, did you bother to look at his screen name...doesn't that tell you anything? I would think that was enough.

Why jump all over a new guy? He asked a question regarding breeding methods and you and that other guy treated him like he's some kind of monster. Shame on you. Would you want to be treated this way? I sure wouldn't. Just because you are an "all powerful forum moderator" does not give you the right to treat people the way you have treated Canadian Guy. If I had been treated this way I would never return even though there are some very nice and helpful people who post on this forum. From what I have seen in this thread, you do not fit that category.

CanadianGuy · Post by **CanadianGuy** » 22 Nov 2003, 06:13

Shane,

I am confused by your contradictory response. You said,

Don't be confused...my responses were not contradictory at all...you are confusing man-made and selective breeding...man did not genetically alter the genes of this pleco to give it the longfin trait...picture this...a long time ago, in a land far away, someone who was breeding bristlenose plecos came upon a new and beautiful baby pleco in one of his spawns...he had never seen this pleco before and liked it so much that he searched for another to breed it to, and thus was born the longfin bristlenose! (this story may not be 100% historically accurate)

If you had started in the Cat-eLog you would have seen this sp, Ancistrus sp.(5) and it states,
Quote:
it is unknown what species is or are involved in this modified fish

modified fish?...not much detail or explanation is there?...it says nothing about it being modified by man...since you pointed out that I didn't read this before I posted, am I to believe that I am not allowed to post here unless I read every possible bit of information regarding the topic I am posting on? The reason I posted here in the first place was to learn things that I didn't know...AKA: things I have yet to read...

You also could have done a search through the Forum before your posting and you would have learned that you were opening a can of worms that many people feel strongly about. My statement about bad taste was certainly not directed to you personally and if you go back and read my first posting I think that you will realize this.

I did not search the entire forum...if you wish to fault me for this I certainly can not argue with you...

I agree there is no accounting for taste. However, there are those with different tastes and then there are those with no taste at all.

If not me then who was this statement directed at??? I read your post several times...it still comes across as a personal attack on my taste...

I do not think that the analogy of dog breeds is valid. Mankind has bred various dog breeds throughout history to make his life easier. Dogs have been bred for war, hunting, herding, and various other tasks to make man's life easier.

That may have been true in the past...and certainly now people buy certain dogs for the traits bred into them, ie:hunting and sporting breeds...
but what is the purpose of all of the other breeds?...bulldogs...do people often have to defend themselves against stray bulls?...poodles...bred for hunting originally, but when was the last time you saw a poodle used for hunting?...pekinese(sp?) bred purely for looks..there are countless others...The majority of purebred dogs are sold and bought as pets or show dogs...and why?...because people like the way they look/behave...are you saying that we should stop all breeding of dogs that aren't of use to humankind?? People breed certain dogs/fish/birds/cats/llamas for vanity...for looks
If you don't like my purebred dog analogy change it to cats...what are they bred for?

I was unaware that YOU did not intend Planetcatfish to be a place for ME to voice my statements. My apologies.

I said nothing about Planetcatfish or what is posted within...I just said that I didn't intend, need. nor want to be lectured on my political correctness or hear about others political statements in this post...as I stated before I came here looking for information...

I think that you just need to learn some tact...one of my first posts here and I am "flamed" by a "Forum Moderator"...you could have easily PMed me or been less confrontational in your post and told me the views certain you and others have of this pleco...I do not mind differing opinions...but come on...there is no need to be so harsh about it...especially when I knew very little regarding the subject!...that's why I came here remember??

James

P.S. In case you hadn't noticed I'm from Canada...I'm not sure how I can, but if I am required to make that more clear somehow I will gladly comply...

P.P.S. Please do not mistake sarcasm for disrespect...I may not like what you have to say...and I'll let you know...but I do respect your opinions...maybe just not the way you express them...

CanadianGuy · Post by **CanadianGuy** » 22 Nov 2003, 06:38

Thank you, Gino...from what I have seen there are some very nice and helpful people on this forum...Barbie, Catfish Lover and yourself, are a few that have welcomed me and helped with my question (and defended me)...I'm sure there are many others...

You need to sort through the trash to find the treasure...

Catfish Lover · Post by **Catfish Lover** » 22 Nov 2003, 06:58

Well, I personally don't care if they cross a parrot cichlid with a long finned bristle nose, and get a parrot bristle nose pleco cichlid, as long as they like it. I don't see the harm. I might hate it like I do fancy goldfish but I don't have to look at it in my tanks. I don't believe fish keeping is a religion with doctrines and blasphemy etc. To each his own.

But if it's the policy of the forum not to encourage the propagation of such or to discuss aquarium strains and mutations of catfish we should respect that and not do it. But where is the line drawn? Albinos are aquarium strains and the L144 (blue eyed gold) is a mutation from what I understand. And there's many others. There's also natural mutations, and as a matter of fact most of the aquarium strains of mutations occur in the wild as well, they just don't survive.

It's the same argument with cichlids. We might as well face the facts, it's a losing battle. The more any aquarium fish is bred is captivity, the more there'll be mutations. Because most people just don't care as long as it's attractive to their eye. And as long as there's a demand, there'll be a supply.

A fish worse than the parrot cichlid is the long finned Oscar. Reminds me of a linebacker in a skirt. But so what? I don't like it, I won't have it in my tanks but if someone else does... well, live and let live.

So, if the staff here in the forum forbids it, we should respect that. I am new here too and don't know the policies that well yet but am willing to respect whatever the staff asks.

CanadianGuy · Post by **CanadianGuy** » 22 Nov 2003, 07:17

Right on, Alan...excellent post...excellent points...

I don't think it's against the rules to discuss aquarium strains and mutations...there are just some here that are pleco purists if you will...

James

YouTube · Post by **Jools** » 22 Nov 2003, 09:03

All~

This topic appears from time to time and the responses are always as we have above. There is no forum policy against talking about such subjects but it does tend to get a little repititive and perhaps we should extract the salient points and put them in a FAQ somewhere. Anyway, there is no restirction on the discussion.

My personal view on this is as such. If the vitality of the fish is hampered by selective breeding then it is morally wrong. Anything else varies from grey to nearly as bad depending on individual cases.

These ARE man-made things, selective breeding happens at mans hand - natural selection happens at natures hand at this is a very different process. In catfish long fin varieties are a difficult one to discuss as they do happen in nature and are sometimes fixed into species over long periods of time. In many cases we do not know why the species has such long fins.

How about that strain of angelfish they developed with a hole in the middle of it's body? How does that differ from a pleco that can hardly move with long fins (which is where the strain is going)? How about bubble-eyed zebra plecos?

This may sound arrogant or high handed, but if there are ill-educated people willing to buy such fish and rejoice in their extremes then isn't that all the more for left us purists (at a lower price)?

Jools

plesner · Post by **plesner** » 22 Nov 2003, 09:08

I believe that people should be allowed to keep whatever fish they want. On the other hand I also believe that information will go at least some way in making people think about what kind of fish they keep.

Personally I NEVER buy any kind of manmade variations. I think it's downright stupid to think we can improve a design, which nature has spend thousands of years developing.

YouTube · Post by **Jools** » 22 Nov 2003, 09:10

CanadianGuy wrote:Second, I did not intend this to be a place for you to voice your politcal statements on animal cruelty/breeding for specific traits...

Please if you do not know the answer to what I am asking then say so or please don't respond...

This bit is out of order, you cannot post and expect people to withhold any opinion. Asking why you want to do something is a perfectly reasonably response to a question asking how to do something.

If you're not ready for a discussion, go to "www.longfinnedplecosarecool.com" and post amongst cronies. I do not mean to imply you are in the wrong in any way, but neither is Shane.

Irrespective of point of view, this is an open forum and will not be censored by individual whim!

Jools

CanadianGuy · Post by **CanadianGuy** » 22 Nov 2003, 09:19

Well put, Jools...

While I don't completely agree with you on all points I appreciate your contribution...and like I had said before...if I were to find out that the longfin trait affected the plecos health in any way I would take that into consideration...no one bothered to mention that before when I was told how wrong it was...I will look into this further...

P.S a hole in the middle of an angelfish may help it become more hydrodynamic!

James

Scleromystax · Post by **Scleromystax** » 22 Nov 2003, 09:21

CanadianGuy wrote:I don't mean for this to sound so harsh, but I am upset...I came to this site because of it's wealth of information...I had hoped to find help here, not be berated for wanting to breed a fish that you find distasteful...

Sounds to me like you came to the site with a closed mind and were surprised by the existence of other people who hold another opinion to your own. Calling someone "trash" when they don't hold your opinion and the nonsense you've put in your location despite the forum rules makes me wonder what you did come here to learn.

Beard

YouTube · Post by **Jools** » 22 Nov 2003, 09:25

CanadianGuy wrote:P.S a hole in the middle of an angelfish may help it become more hydrodynamic!

Maybe, but it also meant an early death when the fishes internal organs started squeezing each other for room... That fact may or may not be aquatic myth, but I have certainly seen pictures of the strain. A dark day for the hobby.

Jools

CanadianGuy · Post by **CanadianGuy** » 22 Nov 2003, 09:30

I do apologize if it seemed that I was not open to having a discussion on this topic...I only ask that I not be lectured on something that I am merely researching....if someone would like to tell me why they think it is wrong to breed a fish for certain characteristics, I am open to that...as I would not want to have or breed a fish of any type that is suffering in any way throughout it's life!

I just want to stick to constructive critisism and advice...not personal attacks on my taste...

CanadianGuy · Post by **CanadianGuy** » 22 Nov 2003, 09:41

Scelero

Sounds to me like you came to the site with a closed mind and were surprised by the existence other people who hold another opinion to your own.

I wasn't surprised to find out that other people have a different opinion to mine...I was surprised at the way it was given to me...that is all...you will see that I am open to other opinions and while it doesn't happen often, sometimes mine can be changed as well...

I also did not call anyone trash...I was simply referring to the small bits of useful information I was able to get so far...insults are what I consider trash...but take that as you will...you are entitled to you opinion...

As for as

the nonsense you've put in your location despite of the forum rules makes me wonder what you did come here to learn.

I am not aware of a rule that says I must post my location or that I may not put "nonsense" as you call it in it's place...It's called an sense of humour...I am truly sorry if my living in a pineapple offends you in any way...

Jools,
That was an attempt at some humour to lighten up this thread...that's what the little guy winking was for...I did not know there were actual angelfish bred with a hole in their bodies...I thought you were just making a point...

James

GinoInChicago · Post by **GinoInChicago** » 22 Nov 2003, 09:52

Regarding the hole in the angelfish bit, Dr. Joanne Norton did an experiment to determine if these notches were genetic, period. Nobody in professional angelfish circles breeds for this trait. It is a defect and these fish are culled. I am an angelfish breeder if that means anything here and only pristine perfect angels are sold. All imperfect fish end up being food for something else. There is no difference in my mind between a veiltail angelfish and a longfin ancistrus, but that is just my opinion. In Shanes world the only angels he would keep are plain jane regular tailed silvers because to him, all veiled, blushing or non-wild color variations are man made. Man made means created in a lab. Selectively bred is another story. One such example are the new glow in the dark fishes that are starting to hit the stores now. These fish actually glow under a black light. You want a manmade fish? There it is. I can go on and on about that issue, but I will stop there.

As far as Canadian Guy having a closed mind???? You've got to be kidding me! He came in here simply asking about spawning a particular catfish. If he had left off the part about longfin and just asked about ancistrus he may have gotten a knowledgeable response without being personally attacked by someone he ended up referring to as trash only after being provoked. It seems there are other closed minded individuals at work here. Its kind of like the pot calling the kettle black isn't it?

Again with the location issue...His name is CanadianGuy doesn't that tell you something about where he is from? C'mon people lighten up!

Jools wrote:
"This bit is out of order, you cannot post and expect people to withhold any opinion. Asking why you want to do something is a perfectly reasonably response to a question asking how to do something. "

He wasn't asked why he wanted to do this, he was berated for wanting to do this. That is not right in any forum.

Catfish Lover · Post by **Catfish Lover** » 22 Nov 2003, 10:00

Here's another thought.

If it's morally wrong to selectively breed for an outstanding trait because it genetically weakens the strain, then it's also morally wrong to commercially mass collect these fish from the wild and bring them into captivity. If we could only imagine the percentage of gold nuggets and mangos that suffer and die between being taken out of their natural habitat and the time they are fully acclimated in the hobbyists tanks, we'd be shocked. Our demand for them is what causes these deaths.

It would be nice if they were bred more in captivity. Not only would it slow down the demand for wilds, it would also take the pressure off their natural habitats and maybe even take away the demand for mutations simply because of economics.

But I do agree if it gets so bad the fish suffers like a parrot cichlid because it's so perverted, it's morally wrong. But the longfins I've had don't seem to be any weaker than the normals. Some of the albinos can be genetically weaker as most all albinos of all fish are. The long fins can get around almost as good as the normals. Just don't keep them with fin nippers

Some of you aren't going to like this but over in Europe they are now breeding a longfin piebald bristlenose, AKA red/black, AKA calico.

YouTube · Post by **Jools** » 22 Nov 2003, 10:20

Catfish Lover wrote:Here's another thought.

If it's morally wrong to selectively breed for an outstanding trait because it genetically weakens the strain, then it's also morally wrong to commercially mass collect these fish from the wild and bring them into captivity. If we could only imagine the percentage of gold nuggets and mangos that suffer and die between being taken out of their natural habitat and the time they are fully acclimated in the hobbyists tanks, we'd be shocked. Our demand for them is what causes these deaths.

No, quite the opposite becuase of the commerical value of the fish can ensure their habitat is maintained. This has been discussed to death elsewhere, but the point doesn't hold as long as wild stocks are not threatened and, beleive me, there are much greater pressures on wild stocks than the ornamental fish trade.

Jools

YouTube · Post by **Jools** » 22 Nov 2003, 10:34

Well, this topic is a hot one! I have now recieved several emails about it from folks who wish to remain anonymous.

Anyway, a few points from those emails for further discussion.

a) This species may well (along with a lot of the common bristlenoses in the hobby) be a hybrid. What is worse, long fins or the fact it and many other bristlenoses are hybrids?

b) When bred the egg clutches are smaller than usual, the young are harder to raise and much more slowly growing that common bristlenoses. Is this a sign of weakness?

c) We are being too close minded, walk into a LFS and remove all the fish that are artificial (an umbrella term I use to cover both ends of the "man-made" argument as above).

In terms of my opinion, the second point is the tricky one. If we know this is a week, vitality reduced fish then we should not be propogating it? Right? But we have to breed it to know this. Right?

Question to CanadaGuy, if you found this out by your own experiments, how would you feel about propogating the strain?

Jools

YouTube · Post by **Jools** » 22 Nov 2003, 10:44

GinoInChicago wrote:He wasn't asked why he wanted to do this, he was berated for wanting to do this. That is not right in any forum.

Well, perhaps CanadianGuy didn't know the minefield he was stepping into, but it is one that with a bit of lurking or read of old posts is pretty evident. There are plenty people here berating Shane for asking CanadianGuy to not do this. Again, no one was unpleasant or rude so I see nothing here that needs moderation.

Anyway, these are all opinions. I am yet to hear one that explains to me why it's a good idea to propogate this fish.

Jools

YouTube · Post by **Jools** » 22 Nov 2003, 10:47

CanadianGuy wrote: Jools,
That was an attempt at some humour to lighten up this thread...that's what the little guy winking was for...I did not know there were actual angelfish bred with a hole in their bodies...I thought you were just making a point...

James

Yeah, you're right, we could do with a bit of humour in this topic. As we are finding out it is a blindingly emotive one.

Can you do us a favour and stick something sensible in your profile's location. Canada would do. On this forum us mods and admins are quite touchy about this an I don't want to treat you any different from anyone else!

Cheers,

Jools

Breeding Longfin Bristlenose...

Breeding Longfin Bristlenose...

L/F pleco's