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Hi all, with the British weather continually providing the resource of rainwater on a consistant basis!! I just wondered if many use it and whether you consider the cons, including the potential for nasties lurking in it,to outweigh the pros, with it's long term use? I live in Warrington, Cheshire so there are some major industrial sites not too far away!

Cheers Matt
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For the past year, I have been regularly collecting rainwater for my aquariums that have relatively low pH & soft water. I live in northern NJ--a half hour drive from NYC and Port Newark/Elizabeth... lots of pollution around here. The fish seem to love it right after water changes, swimming around like crazy and showing spawning behavior... more so than if I use tap water.

We touch on it here ~half way down first page: http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... ilit=+rain but it'd be good to have a thread dedicated to it.

some 6 months back a veranda was build for fishes, collecting rainwater from its roof. As the UK had a very wet period, so had we in NL. I used more rainwater than tap water to change the tanks.

Just as in the previous summers, when the rain fell into the tanks, the use of the same water has not had any detrimental results.

Just be sure
a) the rain itself is usable - I don't know your situation
b) not to spoil the rain collecting it on tarmaced roofs or something like that

We collect rain water off the roof for everything (not on town water supply), and the south american fish love it. Rural New Zealand may be a bit different to your location being close to heavy industry though! Only problem I've had is that is is very soft (TDS <10ppm) and with plenty of wood in my tank for the Panaques it gets really acidic very quickly. I've added a couple of handfuls of beach sand (mostly ground up shell) to my regular sand substrate and that seems to have nicely countered it and the pH sits ~7 and the TDS around 60-90ppm.

Rather than what's in the air, I'd be most concerned with what's on the roof.

As already mentioned, fresh roofing asphalt, but also bacteria from gutters clogged with dead leaves and bird droppings etc.

Here's another thread on the topic. I use rainwater in my tanks here in Washington, DC.

http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... in#p244982

Scleropages wrote:For the past year, I have been regularly collecting rainwater for my aquariums that have relatively low pH & soft water. I live in northern NJ--a half hour drive from NYC and Port Newark/Elizabeth... lots of pollution around here. The fish seem to love it right after water changes, swimming around like crazy and showing spawning behavior... more so than if I use tap water.

That sounds encouraging as I would like to spawn my Peckoltia and using rainwater might be the trigger I've been looking for.

racoll wrote:Rather than what's in the air, I'd be most concerned with what's on the roof.

As already mentioned, fresh roofing asphalt, but also bacteria from gutters clogged with dead leaves and bird droppings etc.

The rainwater I am thinking of using has fallen directly in to clean containers so there's no danger of picking up pollutants off roofs etc.Thanks for the information though.

David R wrote:We collect rain water off the roof for everything (not on town water supply), and the south american fish love it. Rural New Zealand may be a bit different to your location being close to heavy industry though! Only problem I've had is that is is very soft (TDS <10ppm) and with plenty of wood in my tank for the Panaques it gets really acidic very quickly. I've added a couple of handfuls of beach sand (mostly ground up shell) to my regular sand substrate and that seems to have nicely countered it and the pH sits ~7 and the TDS around 60-90ppm.

Thanks for sharing your experiences with using rainwater.I was worried about the stability of the water once it is in the tank but you have allayed my fears.

Thanks for all this useful information and the links you have provided, it's very much appreciated and I think I will try using it for my next water change.

Cheers Matt

racoll wrote:As already mentioned, fresh roofing asphalt, but also bacteria from gutters clogged with dead leaves and bird droppings etc.

Funny people always mention bird poo. We recently lived with my parents for ~6 monthsvwhile moving house, they get theirvwater from a local irrigation scheme but stillvhave the roof water running into a tank for collection. Mums cat took a dislike to our two dogs (can't imagine why...) and spent most of the time either in their bedroom or out on the big flat roof, which soon became its litter box. Despite the roof being covered in cat poo, and presumably urine also, there was never and detectable ammonia, nitrite or nitrate in the tank water, which I was using for my fish as the tap water was too hard.

I think you're right that roofing tar or other coatings or sprays could cause a problem, but I think leaves and bird poo aren't likely to be harmful unless present in enormous quantities. Our gutters have some leaves and muck in them, as does the water tank, it is unavoidable in a rural setting especially close to the bush as we are. We clean it every so often, but you can't eliminate it. Tbh I'd think its safer for the fish than chlorine, flouride, and god knows what else they treat city water with!

David R wrote:Despite the roof being covered in cat poo, and presumably urine also, there was never and detectable ammonia, nitrite or nitrate in the tank water, which I was using for my fish as the tap water was too hard.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I sould expect cat poo to contain phosphates, but not much nitrates

Protein is degraded into ammino acids, which are taken up from the gut very efficiently.

Any exces op taken up proteins is further degraded to ammonia (which is then processed into ureum in mammals -) and than excreted as urin

birds procves the ammonia into urin acid, which does not dissolve in water (but it can be processed back), and is excreeted together with the poo (in fact, the white colour bird poo often has comes from the urin acid). Therefore, I would not assume much nitrates to leak from a cat poo covered roof.

In fact, as bird leave some dropping when they fly away, I would expect your cat to keep the roof reletively free from nitrates.

Forgive me for saying so, but your description did not take away my fear of bird droppings on my roof. Quite the opposite

Inspiring reading.
Tonight I've just set up a 2ft tank in my new house and its been an established tank in my old place but now I've filled it with rainwater from a waterbutt already set up here. 10 litres of tapwater and the rest rainwater.
I live about 500yards from a busy stretch of the M4 motorway. I'm going to put about 25 cardinals in there tomorrow.
Place your bets gentlemen [SMILING FACE WITH SMILING EYES]

I shall report.

Interesting Bas, I'm not a chemist nor biologist, my mind simply thought animal excreta = ammonia, which could then be broken down into nitrate/nitrite by bacteria in the tank/water. I should have said I certainly wasn't keen on drinking the water, but everything I tested for (didn't test for phosphate but also didn't have any algae problems)showed it as being fine for aquarium use (TDS was <10ppm).

I haven't actually seen any bird droppings on my roof, but perhaps given the abundance of trees around they don't feel the need to sit on it? Even if the odd one did hit it while flying over I would suspect such a tiny amount of waste dissolved into 10-25K litres of water (depending on how full the water tank is) would barely be detectable at all. Perhaps it may be different in urban areas, especially those with a high population of pigeons.


If anyone collecting rain water has a TDS meter I'd be interested to see what it measures, last time I checked mine it had basically no detectable hardness, and about 7ppm TDS.

Perhaps best to be aware of these risks, but not too paranoid!

Birds (mostly magpies and jackdaw) crap all over my roof (and car). I collect rainwater and use it for about half of my water changes. I used to test it in the summer but now I don't bother. Been using it three years without issue. It is a big roof (perhaps 100m2) but I only collect from half of it. Slate is inert, pipe work is PvC.

Jools

David R wrote: If anyone collecting rain water has a TDS meter I'd be interested to see what it measures, last time I checked mine it had basically no detectable hardness, and about 7ppm TDS.

By definition rain water should be pretty close to zero. Any TDS collected would have been on the fall to the roof from the sky and the subsequent materials gathered from your roof. Our watershed here is pretty much rainwater. At the tap, the TDS is < 20, usually about 12 so I've never bothered with rainwater. As a matter of fact, I have to put in GH boosters with each water change as I'm worried about a pH crash. Only discus keepers around here who change water every day don't buffer the water.

I've been using rainwater gathered from our roof in spring, summer and fall for 3 years now with no ill effects. I usually have to heat it, and so I take that opportunity to use a power filter with a high-grade activated carbon to try to take care of any real or imagined nasties that might still be in the water. When using the rainwater pH drops are a very real possibility, especially in my over stocked tanks that don't have any substrate.

racoll wrote:Perhaps best to be aware of these risks, but not too paranoid!

Do birds and fish have common detrimental bacteria or parasites?

Viktor Jarikov wrote:

racoll wrote:Perhaps best to be aware of these risks, but not too paranoid!

Do birds and fish have common detrimental bacteria or parasites?

That would surprise me a lot

Birds have a high bodytemperature - if I rememeber correctly 42 C (higher than mammals)- and any bactyeria thriving in that temperature would be a champion of adapting thriving @ 27 C or so too.

And this is only the first challenge for a bird bacteria trying to survive in a fish.

I once read 'if it survives in a mammal, it woun't hurt a fish'. I think the world is a bit more complex, but the difference between fish and mammals are less then between fish and birds

Thanks. It is of the opposite direction, but fish tuberculosis can survive and thrive in a human.

That's right, but it is one of the very rare ones.

A vet once told me to tell the docter I'm keeeping fish if an infection on fingers poses probelems - after all, fingers can have a far lower temperature then the rest of my body.

In my gut fish tuberculosis would be challenged indeed. Most likely it would only stand a chamge after succesfully invading my fingers - therefore, being infected by a fishdesease is something to take very seriously indeed, but chances of this happening are slim - fish tuberculosis is one of the very few ones who can make it

But than, as stated, mammal - fish is far easier than fish - bird

Viktor Jarikov wrote:Do birds and fish have common detrimental bacteria or parasites?

No*. I was thinking more about the effect of the bacteria on the BOD.

*birds are a vector for some fish parasites (e.g. Euhaplorchis californiensis).

Hi all,
I know all the details are in the thread that "MChambers" & Viktor kindly linked <http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... in#p245009>, but both the "2 butt-system", (described below):

This is one of the reasons for having 2 water butts linked together with a tap, you can drain and clean the butt linked to the diverter, without losing all of your water. The second butt, from which you draw the water, always remains free of organic debris.

I also think that gutter/downpipe with a diverter will be much cleaner than one without, instead of all the sparrows nests, moss, lichen, leaves etc. ending up in the down-pipe, blocking the soak-away and/or sewer, they are trapped by the diverter, and need to be removed to ensure that water flows into the water butt.

Because of this requirement for cleaning the diverter, I ensure that I can remove it, whilst leaving the rest of the down pipe in place.

and the "Daphnia bioassay" are an extremely good technique for ensuring that your rain-water is aquarium safe. "Daphnia Bioassay" is a horrible technical term, but the procedure itself couldn't be more simple.

• 1. You add some Daphnia to your water butt when you set it up.
  2. When you draw the water off for water changes, you check that it has some swimming Daphnia in it.
  3. Swimming Daphnia = safe water.

That is all you have to do, the Daphnia do everything else for you. The only slight problem is that Daphnia magna doesn't do very well in acid water, but other similar water fleas do. In the UK the very large "Daphnia" (Simocephalus vetulus), is common in less base rich situations, and you only need low amounts of hardness to keep D. magna happy.

Daphnia Bioassay details: <http://ria.ua.pt/bitstream/10773/5040/1 ... 89_403.pdf>

cheers Darrel