PlanetCatfish.com

First off, I really can't provide any more info on the water parameters than I have now. Temp.: 73 F, Size: 55 gallon, external filter, internal air stone and heater, rinsed H&E PFS substrate, large malaysian driftwood, and LFS results: All parameters at safe/ideal levels (safe ex.: pH: 7.6)/(ideal ex.: Nitrates: 0%, etc...), according to needs of specimens kept.

The problem only concerns the C. trilineatus, paleatus, aeneus, leucomelas, and sodalis individuals and one recently-added B. splendens.

Recently, I have been treating them with Rid-Ich + once I noticed them scraping. I stopped treating them about a week ago. I had treated them for a few days and a few more after the symptoms disappeared (Sorry, I don't keep specific records of dates and such...). After the last dose, I had performed, over a few days, water changes. One at 50%, the other two or three at 25%. After each water change, I had also supplemented the water with the appropriate amounts of aquarium salt, Stress Coat +, and Stress Zyme. I just added two new fish yesterday, and they're perfectly fine (Which isn't surprising since the two new ones and one veteran resident are Loricariids....).

All 5 have been scraping themselves each and everytime after I so much as put my hand in the tank to siphon detritus, perform a water change, stir up the sand bed, etc... They also breathe relatively fast (2 cycles per second). These symptoms present themselves for about 10 to 15 minutes, then abate.

What in the world am I supposed to do? If they're scraping, doesn't that mean they're more susceptible to disease? If I do nothing, it's obvious what will happen. Either way, I'd likely lose the fish and they'd lose their lives.

This is getting to be extremely frustrating. They'll go for a month of health, and then it's right back to death and suffering. If all these 6 cats die, I'll just get an Erpetoichthys calabaricus to keep my plecostomids and banjo cats company. They are supposed to be hardier than these corys and brochi, and do well in most community tanks.

What should I do?

Why are you adding salt? It's not only unnecessary for most tropical fish, it's definitely not recommended for corydoras.

I'd do a 50% water change immediately and not add any salt. Then I'd do another water change tomorrow.

Corys can tolerate salt quite well, and I have used this in the past ever since I had them. After each water change I replenish the lost amount of electrolytes. Electrolytes are essential for gill function and removal and uptake of gases. I've always used salt in this manner and for treatments, and they always become less stressed out than before so doing. I will of course continue some small water changes until they fully recover. This morning, most all of them have actually improved since the last addition of salt and water change a few days ago.

Thank you for your concern.

Hi all,

After each water change I replenish the lost amount of electrolytes. Electrolytes are essential for gill function and removal and uptake of gases.

This honestly isn't true, these fish come from water where there are virtually no electrolytes present. You can show this by looking at the conductivity (TDS) values for the rivers in S America. Have a look at this article <http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?script= ... 0000300015>. Table 2. shows that the River Amazon (Solimoes) at Manaus, so a white water river with a heavy sediment load, had a conductivity of less than 100 microS, a TDS value of less than 60ppm. The Black water Rio Negro had values less than 10 microS (~6ppm TDS).

There are hardly any salts of any kind (not just NaCl). Adding salt doesn't make any sense to me at all.

Have a look at these posts for a bit more discussion:<http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... =2&t=35797> & Joe Gargas's excellent article at <http://www.tbas1.com/Exchange/The%20New ... d%2011.pdf>

cheers Darrel

My head is spinning!

So the best thing for the cats is I should do a 50% water change to get out some of the salt? I don't know, I've got ghost shrimp, angelfish, tetras, danios, a loach, and a platy in there too. What is best for all of 'em? What in the world should I be doing? I thought that what I was doing was helpful. Could someone tell me what I need to do now, daily, and long-term, 'cause if I've been misinformed since I kept fish, it would be best for me to sell them to someone who does know what he or she's doing.

-Edited-
(All that had followed was solely an expression of my recent and, hopefully not, continuing frustration with the stresses of fishkeeping. I apologize.)

I'm sorry. I was very brash. I let my emotions get the better of me.

Really, I do need some additional expert advice on how I should take care of these fish now and long-term. I'm grateful you corrected me. That is what is best for the fish and I. Most everything I learned turned out to be false. It feels like I'm just beginning over again. I don't understand what I'm supposed to do to safely care for this diversity of fish! Please help!

-Kaegen

FerocactusLatispinus wrote:Really, I do need some more expert advice on how to take care of these fish now and long-term. Turns out I got my understanding all wrong. Please edify me, so I can safely care for my fish.

Fish keeping is generally dead easy, but a lot can go wrong. By sticking to a few basics, you can make life much easier and less stressful for yourself. Here's a few things I'd recommend you do to avoid some of the rookie mistakes a lot of people make. Also have a read of this article on the subject here.

(1) Too many kinds of fish. Stick to three or four species max. Keeping nice big groups of single species not only looks better, there's less need to compromise on water conditions, and the fish feel more relaxed, and behave more naturally.

(2) Buying the mass produced fish like neons, guppies and angelfish. They're such low quality these days and many will not live long, no matter how you look after them. Stick to less common (but easy fish) and try to buy from local breeders where possible.

(3) Keeping fish at the wrong temperature. An example: fish like bettas, rams, tetras and angelfish tend need quite warm water (27-30C), while danios and platies require cooler water (20-23C). Compromising is bad for both.

(4) Ignoring water hardness (mineral content). Again, different species have different requirements, and these should be similar to your tapwater supply. It doesn't have to be identical to nature, but basic rules should apply; blackwater fish like many tetras will not thrive in hard water, and likewise, fish from well buffered natural waters like many livebearers, for instance, do not like soft water. Got hard water, then only keep hard water fish. There's lots of choice these days.

(5) Adding salt. As already stated, freshwater fish don't need salt. Only use salt as a temporary medicine, and only when you know what the disease is that you're treating.

(6) Not providing the right physical environment. Certain species need certain things. For example, corydoras need sand (I don't know what your "H&E PFS substrate" is). Others need other things.

It all boils down to doing your homework. Learn about the natural habitats of the fish. Where do they come from, what is their natural water like, do they like a fast current, or do they live in ponds, etc? Look about for exceptions too, as what applies to one fish, might not apply to another. For non-catfish, the species profiles on http://www.seriouslyfish.com are a great place to get well researched information.

Anyway, regarding the current illness, the constant flicking and fast breathing sounds like whitespot (ich)? You've just treated for that, right?

Hope this helps.

Thank you. I had just had the whole experience and everything I needed to express recorded right here just now. I hit "Preview" and I immediately had to re-log in. A glitch, and I just lost it all. I'm sorry.

Be assured, I can't fully express my gratitude to all of you! I also can't fully express my sadness and regret from this whole terrible experience. It truly is horrible I had to learn this lesson at the expense of the fish and everyone else. For that, I am sorry.

I will study, learn, and apply all of this information to the upmost of my ability.

Thank you so much!

-Kaegen

I had just had the whole experience and everything I needed to express recorded right here just now. I hit "Preview" and I immediately had to re-log in. A glitch, and I just lost it all.

We've all done that. Infuriating isn't it! It's not a glitch though - the forum automatically logs you out after a set period of inactivity (i.e. clicking on links, just typing doesn't count). Anyway, what I do when writing a long post is to frequently hit Ctrl+A (select all) and then Ctrl+C (copy). This copies the text onto your clipboard, so if it disappears, you can just use Ctrl+V (paste) to get it back again. Alternatively, just write the post in Notepad or Word first.

I was wondering about that too. Thanks Rupert.

Kaegen, please don't despair and not let your emotions get the best of you. WE ALL have made lots of fish ill and lost lots and lots of fish. It's just a fact of life. One falls many times when learning to ride a bike and even after they learned they fall again, often with much worst outcomes than a few patches of missing skin because they go after more interesting experience, want to ride faster, rougher, etc. I think you get my analogy. In a nutsell, if someone cannot handle the nominally "bad" things that come out (along with the "good") from any given activity/hobby, then they better pick a different one, the one they can handle.

You are getting world-class help here on PCF. For instance, Rupert A Collins (aka racoll) is an ichthyologist, and obviously a compassionate one. I am not sure who Darrel aka dw1305 is but his posts are not unlike solid scientific mini-lectures. I learn lots from them.

As for the "intermittency" of the symptoms you describe, it sounds odd. When fish have ich symptoms, they are not intermittent but always present untill ich is gone... and moreover, ich can be seen with a naked eye in the form of small "white crumbs" on fish's skin, fins, etc. So. if I had to guess, I'd say it is not ich you are seeing but could be flukes or other invisible external parasites. General anti-parasitic like CLOUT may help. Praziquantel is a safe and excellent killer of any worms, internal and external. Metronidazole, flubendazole are other good, safe killers of several specific parasites. Otherwise, it could be simply signs of general discomfort because of the suboptimal water parameters, among which it may be the hardness and the salinity that have been discussed.

CLOUT may or may not wipe out all the inverts, like shrimp. Read up on the meds before using: http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com ... tion3.html

Hi all,

For instance, Rupert A Collins (aka racoll) is an ichthyologist, and obviously a compassionate one. I am not sure who Darrel aka dw1305 is but his posts are not unlike solid scientific mini-lectures. I learn lots from them.

Thanks for that, I hope people find them useful, but I never really know.

I'm not a real scientist like "Racoll" or "Silurus", or really a proper fish keeper either. My aim is to have a planted tank which is stable and robust and then find fish for those conditions that will be healthy and largely look after themselves, ideally through several generations.

I look after a small ecology lab in one of the UK's newer universities. I've got degrees in the Plant Sciences and a lot of my work has been on the biological re-mediation of "waste" water. I also do a small amount of environmental consultancy (as a plant ecologist). In my former life I worked as a cow-man, nurseryman and brickies mate.

cheers Darrel

Thank you Victor. I'll have to pick up a few of those medications for use in the future!

Regarding invertebrates, I used to have three black kuhli loaches that must have eaten a golden mystery snail I added months back. Loaches predate on snails, but for a week, the kuhli loaches never harrassed it. I just found an empty shell and its door on the sand on a morning. I thought it was pretty neat how the snail would go up for air every hour or so!

FerocactusLatispinus wrote:three black kuhli loaches that must have eaten a golden mystery snail I added months back. Loaches predate on snails

racoll wrote:Look about for exceptions too, as what applies to one fish, might not apply to another.

Here's a classic example. It is correct that some loaches predate on some snails, but that doesn't mean all loaches predate on all snails. A kuhli loach would never eat one of these large snails.

In that case, I'll just have to pick one up some day. I guess the only other ones that could have gotten to it were the plecos!

But it really was an unpleasant surprise to see that.

Some of my cats and koi were caught sucking out large mystery snails out of their shells quite successfully but only before the snail was able to shut the trapdoor.

Yesterday, Felix died, but Oscar seems to have made an impressive comeback. She's not breathing fast at all and none of the fish are scratching. It's really good to see them growing so quickly too!

Little Oscar just took a turn for the worst. I had to put her down, poor thing. It really is so sad to see such cute fish go.

Here is some help!
Start out with 1/4 dose, cats are very sensitive!
http://www.seachem.com/Products/product ... Guard.html

Thank you! I am grateful for your recommendation as well as everyone elses'.

Also, I'm pleased to announce that all are doing wonderfully with such little salt in the water now! The cories are all back to growing quickly as usual!

i breed trilineatus and just got some orange lasers out of peru. one laser has been flashing. i needed to know the dosage of meds before treating. thanks for the 1/4 dose. just what i needed.

The C. paleatus seems to grow much faster than the two C. aeneus. I can't wait until they're full grown! This week I'll also be getting two more friends for the S. nigriventris (who has now been taking to a large hole in the driftwood more than underneath the heater). The biggest banjo cat has discovered that being next to the air stone tube is much nicer than being buried in the sand, so Ollie has now been propping itself up in between it and the glass, day and night. It reminds me of Curly expressing his interest in a canopied bed that went back to King Henry VIII, "I'll take the upper bunk! You get less air!"

I have given all my tetras, except for the neons, to my dad, who teaches Middle and High School sciences. He also has a couple strange plecos that have cream-colored bellies and thick, light patches set horizontally on the back.

The red-eyed tetras were definitely the worst fin nippers. My tank will be much more peaceful now. Just cats, angelfish, a loach, and neons!

[Fish keeping is generally dead easy, but a lot can go wrong. By sticking to a few basics, you can make life much easier and less stressful for yourself. Here's a few things I'd recommend you do to avoid some of the rookie mistakes a lot of people make. Also have a read of this article on the subject here.

(1) Too many kinds of fish. Stick to three or four species max. Keeping nice big groups of single species not only looks better, there's less need to compromise on water conditions, and the fish feel more relaxed, and behave more naturally.

(2) Buying the mass produced fish like neons, guppies and angelfish. They're such low quality these days and many will not live long, no matter how you look after them. Stick to less common (but easy fish) and try to buy from local breeders where possible.

(3) Keeping fish at the wrong temperature. An example: fish like bettas, rams, tetras and angelfish tend need quite warm water (27-30C), while danios and platies require cooler water (20-23C). Compromising is bad for both.

(4) Ignoring water hardness (mineral content). Again, different species have different requirements, and these should be similar to your tapwater supply. It doesn't have to be identical to nature, but basic rules should apply; blackwater fish like many tetras will not thrive in hard water, and likewise, fish from well buffered natural waters like many livebearers, for instance, do not like soft water. Got hard water, then only keep hard water fish. There's lots of choice these days.

(5) Adding salt. As already stated, freshwater fish don't need salt. Only use salt as a temporary medicine, and only when you know what the disease is that you're treating.

(6) Not providing the right physical environment. Certain species need certain things. For example, corydoras need sand (I don't know what your "H&E PFS substrate" is). Others need other things.

It all boils down to doing your homework. Learn about the natural habitats of the fish. Where do they come from, what is their natural water like, do they like a fast current, or do they live in ponds, etc? Look about for exceptions too, as what applies to one fish, might not apply to another. For non-catfish, the species profiles on http://www.seriouslyfish.com are a great place to get well researched information.
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Hi, I was reading this post. Thanks for sharing. Question. It is mentioned to keep 3 - 4 kinds of fish only. Does that include the type of Corydoras? For example, i have 6 Cory Pepered, 1 SAE, 1 BN Pleco, 8 White Cloud Moutain Minnows, and another type of fish i forgot the name. I also have shrimps and Snails, but those dont count. That is 5 types, so 1 more that what is recommended. I wanted to add more cories. Should i choose the same type of cories, as not to go to over the recommended type of fish, or can i pick another type of corydoras or brochis?

What I have for my tank, I think I'm stretching the rules a bit. I have far more than 3-4 species of fish in my tank, but I keep any additional species to this kind of criteria: the fish must be compatible to the others and the tank size and they all must have "overlapping" water parameter requirements (for instance, one species has a temp. range of 70-82 F and another species, 73-76 F). With this, I am able to keep a Bristlenose Pleco, Whiptail Catfish, paleatus, sodalis, agassizii, and aeneus cories, as well as Banjo catfish and Upside Down Catfish all in the same environment and living happily together. This way, they aren't really having water parameters compromised. I also have some Neon tetras, angelfish, a ghost shrimp, and a Black Kuhli. Loach.

In my case, this matchup seems to work very well. This may work as long as your tank doesn't get overstocked.

Pinky, my albino cory, is looking terrible just now. He's on his side a little, clamped, but breathing normally. He was eating and looking fine all morning until just now. All the other corys are as healthy as can be, except for Spots who is still trying to completely adjust to the environment. Pinky is not emaciated or has any sign of inflammation or any visible disease. All this just has to point to his having a heart condition, or stroke, or something like that. This is exactly what happened to my two former Rubberlipped Plecos. Within the next hour, I will know if this is the same case or not. This is horrible! The others have to live up to or past their life expectancy! I have yet to see that!

I'm so relieved and terribly confused! An hour later, Pinky was vigorously eating as usual, sat down and gave me a scare like he did before, and is now up and about with all energy! I don't think I'll ever understand these creatures.

zfarsh wrote:

racoll wrote: (1) Too many kinds of fish. Stick to three or four species max. Keeping nice big groups of single species not only looks better, there's less need to compromise on water conditions, and the fish feel more relaxed, and behave more naturally.

Hi, I was reading this post. Thanks for sharing. Question. It is mentioned to keep 3 - 4 kinds of fish only. Does that include the type of Corydoras? For example, i have 6 Cory Pepered, 1 SAE, 1 BN Pleco, 8 White Cloud Moutain Minnows, and another type of fish i forgot the name. I also have shrimps and Snails, but those dont count. That is 5 types, so 1 more that what is recommended. I wanted to add more cories. Should i choose the same type of cories, as not to go to over the recommended type of fish, or can i pick another type of corydoras or brochis?

Woah! That's not what I meant at all! Sorry if I didn't communicate properly, and I hope you're still around to read this thread.

I am absolutely not saying that there's a hard and fast rule of no more than three-four species. This was just a general "rule of thumb". There are many people on the forum who are keeping very successful tanks with many more than this. If you choose the species correctly, and providing there's enough room/filtration, you can in theory keep any many species together as you like.

What I meant to say, is that given limited resources (i.e. a single tank), and in the absence of intimate knowledge of all species, the fewer species you keep, the lower the risk of things going wrong. It's all about minimising risk.

Here are some examples:

1) More fish = more potential for compromise on conditions, as different species may require different water parameters (so what's good for one, may not be good for all).
2) More fish = more potential for conflict, as different species have different behaviours and lifestyles.
3) More fish = greater risk of diseases getting introduced.
4) Social fish prefer to be in groups of their own kind (bigger almost always being better), so given limited space, you will make the fish you have happier by getting more of the same.

zfarsh wrote:I also have shrimps and Snails, but those dont count.

No, they do count! This is a good example, and illustrates precisely my points above. You have two organisms that have specific needs, and there are also potential interactions with other species. For example, the shrimps are small, and may be eaten by larger fish. Therefore, your pool of potential tankmates is restricted to species that like the same water as the shrimps, and will not eat them. Now every other species in the tank will have its own set of needs, so when you have lots of species, this multiplies the likelihood of one or more of these needs not being met, and the potential for trouble.

Hope this is clearer?

P.S. apologies for going off topic FerocactusLatispinus, but I thought it a good idea to explain myself.

No, no problem at all racoll! The corys were really sensitive until I stopped supplementing the water with salt late last year. The main problem with my species assortment is that Scooter the BN Pleco gets very peeved when it's feeding time and fish are in his way! Also off-topic, that chubby male has slimmed down and is starting to grow again! He's finally getting over having had a conspecific in the same tank.