Yet another Tank.

clothahump · Post by **clothahump** » 19 Jan 2003, 12:08

I have just started the set up of a new aquarium, 47" x 24" x 24".
Substrate consists of 25Kg of pond compost covered with 25 Kg of Silica sand.
I managed to find some old unused roofing slates and have stuck them to the back and sides.

Post by **Shane** » 19 Jan 2003, 14:03

Tim,
Tank looks great. I especially like the slate. I did the same thing on a small one gallon tank (lined it with slate) and it is great for taking photos since the slate absorbs the flash vice reflecting it. So what is going to live in there?
-Shane

Yann · Post by **Yann** » 19 Jan 2003, 16:27

Hi!

Yes it look really great!

Shane I did not know about that absorbing light stuff, I shall try setting up one tank in such way!
Plus I am also sure it help the fish settle in and calm down when taking pics of them??

Cheers
Yann

clothahump · Post by **clothahump** » 19 Jan 2003, 17:10

Definately 3 adult angels, 1x 9 year old Hoplo, 1 x pair of Albino Ancistrus, the rest I will decide when I have a move around.

Zack · Post by **Zack** » 19 Jan 2003, 17:53

Nice settup cant wait to see the finished product. By the way whats silica sand???

Post by **Shane** » 19 Jan 2003, 18:40

Yann (and others),
I can not claim credit for the slate photo tank idea. I took it from Erwin Schraml. Look at the Aqualog loricariid book and you can see that he uses the same set up for a photo tank. The only drawback is the that the thing is heavy when you finish and so can not be used in the field. That said, you get nice ID quality photos as all the pictures are taken against a standard neutral background.
-Shane

Yann · Post by **Yann** » 19 Jan 2003, 22:55

Hi!

Thanks Shane!
Yes I did not remember about Erwin's pics! Like you said, it is really heavy and cannot be considered much as part of material for onfield work!
Still you could have them cut on the width to make them less heavy!
Plus you basically need one in the back , one on the bottom and that could be it!
Cheers
Yann

Post by **Dinyar** » 20 Jan 2003, 02:35

Yes, definitely a nice looking tank, Tim!

Pond compost?! I could understand if you were planning a heavily planted tank, but what's the application you have in mind for it here? Covered with sand, might it not go anareobic and kill your fish?

I'm pretty sure Erwin carries his slate tank around. Most of his pix are taken at importers all over Germany. (And he takes lots of pix!)

I've beeen thinking of setting up something similar in a 10 liter photo tank. Tried just lining it with slate I had on hand, but the damn fish always hid in the cracks between the uneven pieces of slate. To do it right in that small size, I think one would need to have the slate cut neatly to size.

Greg P. (signed up but seldom posts in these fora) has many spectacular large tanks (up to 350 gals!) and gets stunning effects using flagstones. How does one prevent a rock slide in these situations, I wonder?

Dinyar

Post by **Shane** » 20 Jan 2003, 03:57

Dinyra (and others),
Taking the slate photo tank in your car to the exporters would not be so bad (Erwin has explained his set up to me). The real problem (for me) is putting it in a rucksack and packing it, cameras, test kits, nets, et al down to a collecting site. Even my little one gallon weighs 3-4 pounds with the slate. I managed to cover up the small cracks with silicone. I then took all the shavings from cutting the slate and sprinkled it over the wet silicone. It worked pretty well. The other problem is that it is just too big. I have a photo tank that Jools made and gave to me that holds about a glass of water and works perfect. Anything larger and you (me anyway) can never get the fish to sit still. In the field it is also necessary to pack in your own photo water since the local water will never be clear.
I have seen stone set ups like I think you are talking about an they all had the stones siliconed to the back of the tank. A very cool effect if you don't plan to move often.
I am also baffeled by the pond compost. Can you explain this Tim?
-Shane

Post by **Dinyar** » 20 Jan 2003, 06:05

Shane,

What kind of tool did you use to cut the slate?

(Reminds me of the thread on the C-List a few years ago about cutting flower pots!)

Dinyar

clothahump · Post by **clothahump** » 20 Jan 2003, 10:41

I am also baffeled by the pond compost. Can you explain this Tim?
-Shane

The tank will be planted hence the pond compost, it is a far cheaper way than using Laterite and does the same job as it is clay based.
To stop it going aneorobic there will be a colony of malaysian trumpet snails, they keep the substrate on the move, if it becomes a problem I will have to think again.
I look after an Aquarium for a man of 93 years, his tank has not had the substrate touched for 8 years and he grows plants better than anyone else I know, the substrate is as black as black can be, the fish all thrive in these conditions.
I wonder if the stream beds that plants thrive in are aneorobic?
The slate is siliconed in place with only very small gaps between them, I will get some beter pics when the water goes in later today.

gibbo · Post by **gibbo** » 20 Jan 2003, 13:58

Fantastic looking tank (and sounding, once planted) Tim, never ever thought of the roof slate. I have a Degree in photography and it is an excellent idea for a 'photo' tank as well

Post by **Shane** » 20 Jan 2003, 15:11

Dinyar,
I "cut" the slate with a simple file. My wife has a large metal file that she uses to sharpen her trowels (she is an archaeologist). Reminds me of a rasp if you are familiar with horseshoeing tools. Anyway, just score the slate with the file, place the part you do not want out over a table ledge and tap it with a hammer. The slate will fracture right along the scoring.
Tim,
Most of the places I have seen with heavy aquatic plant growth had a thick clay substrate (like in the llanos). Huge anaerobic deposits are common in nature, especially where silt or leaf litter has piled up. I remember catching Corydoras venezuelanus over silt beds and everytime I took a step I released some very foul smelling stuff. This also true of leaf litter beds where many aquarium fishes live. I am still not convinced that anaerobes (bacteria that do not use O2) will not do the same job as aerobes and I think it would be interesting to experiment with the idea.
This system is all the rage in the marine hobby where people are calling it "sand" or "mud" filtration. From Goemans and Gamble (FAMA Dec 2002), "We have used the word "oxic" and/or "aerobic" to represent oxygen rich areas..The word "anoxic" represents areas where little oxygen is present... (and) where destructive denitrification occurs."
As Dinyar pointed out, this condition is the opposite of what most of us are after. My only experience was with a 20 "high" planted tank. I used a combination of mud and sand from a local stream for the substrate and heavily planted the tank. It held a number of Mystus bimaculatus and they thrived. The substrate was deep and eventually turned black. Years later when I broke down the tank the substrate smelled very foul (anaerobic), but the fish and plants had done fantastcally in the tank for years. If anyone is interested, this would be a great method of filtration to experiment with and I would like to hear your results.
-Shane

Post by **Dinyar** » 20 Jan 2003, 15:24

If someone were to ask me, "what is the single biggest mistake you ever made in your fish keeeping career?", my simple answer would be "Malaysian trumpet snails". I know some people love them. They're OK in a tank where you have aggressive feeders that get to all the food ASAP and leave nothing behind. With most catfish, though, chances are that the populatin of snails will explode! I loath these pests! YMMV.

Likewise, I know some people swear by natural, organic substrates, but I would see that as a high risk and high nitrate option. Plus, every time you uproot a plant, you will have a tank full of swirling sediment. We have quite a few planted tanks ourselves, and have always had excellent results using Seachem Fluorite. Ponds and other natural bodies of water contain a lot more water than a typical aquarium does, plus we don't expect them to be crystal clear, as we expect our aquariums to be.

Of course, there are other people who swear by MTS and organic substrates, so you are certainly in good company, Tim. I imagine both can be made to work, but the stability parameters are unforgiving.

Dinyar

clothahump · Post by **clothahump** » 27 Jan 2003, 12:41

5am today.
I might remove the wood on the left as it looks a bit crowded, the catfish however would like it.

It took three days for the water to clear as the hose slipped when filling it and blasted a hole in the substrate releasing some of the clay into suspension.

Zack · Post by **Zack** » 06 May 2003, 07:52

tank looks good so far, is it planted yet?? got any pictures??

clothahump · Post by **clothahump** » 06 May 2003, 09:46

Thanks for the reminder, I will borrow my mates camera this week and give you an update.

YouTube · Post by **Jools** » 06 May 2003, 10:11

Shane wrote:Yann (and others),
I can not claim credit for the slate photo tank idea. I took it from Erwin Schraml. Look at the Aqualog loricariid book and you can see that he uses the same set up for a photo tank. The only drawback is the that the thing is heavy when you finish and so can not be used in the field. That said, you get nice ID quality photos as all the pictures are taken against a standard neutral background.
-Shane

My 4x18x18 show tank in the living room (but not for long!) has this but I stuck slate on the outside of the tank too. It's looks really rugged and cool but it does weight a tonne! The light thing can also be helped by taking photos in a slate tank with not hood.

Jools

Sid Guppy · Post by **Sid Guppy** » 06 May 2003, 12:16

I'm baffled by the compost as well!

We Dutch are up to our ears in planted tanks, but the use of compost and such is a method wich has gone with the dodo a few decades ago here. Just too many uncontrollable difficulties can happen.
First there's the anaeroob issue Dinyar referred too; he's right about that, it can be risky.
Second; like Jools said; it happens all over the wild. What he probably forgot to say, was that the usual habit of most tropical fish doesn't contain all those nice, little plants at all, just mud, gasses under the mud, and huge swamp plants (weeds and reeds) growing well above the water, if any.

Third, nature has a balance and it's buffered too. A tank hasn't got this, so you need to be in control 24/7!
The best way to do this, is using a much simpler method: just a riversand substrate, you can put a thin layer of peat underneat, if you like to stick to natural, brown acidic water. Peat contains less nutrients than compost, it rarely rots (well conserved, like bogwood!) and stabilizes pH too, wich is good.
Plants that require more than just sand and a bit of peat, can be made to grow by adding a bit of clay. Easiest way is just roll "clay-marbles"; bake them just a bit in an ordinary oven (to avoid getting a mess, when handling them in the tank!), and put one or two near the place, where such a plant is planted (Echinodorus, Lotus, Aponogeton, Crinum etc like this).
South American plantsa need quite a bit of Ferro (iron). a very old recipe that really works is burying a rusty nail near the tankfloor! Make sure it's blunted, in case of digging catfish. Jools can probably agree, there's a load of little brooks in Amazonia that are brickred because of the iron. C aeneus for example has a natural habitat like that, if I'm correct.

Fourth, the best way of having a healthy plant growth is using the right amount of light, and lots of it. The sheer amount of light on equatorial rainforests is baffling!
Especially pale people need a good sunblock, even when the sky is overcast....and the day's just 12 hours or so. (you know, it's light and WHAM! it's dark....there's no "dusk" or "dawn" there, the sun just switches from MAX to OFF and then it's pitchdark

)
To make true tropical plants do well in such a tank, you need to add 2 watts or even more for every square decimeter tankfloor (10 cm x 10 cm).
If you have really fast growing plants, you might think about getting one of those CO2-fertilizer equipments.

Fifth; if you have a new plant, or need to remove one that is rooted well, a compost-substrate can "explode" and your tank is a goner; a black, stinking, muddy, gooy mess wich contains invisible fish; and you can strip the entire tank and start again: NOT a nice thing to do.

My planted tanks do well beyond "just OK" with the recipe described, and I stopped using compost (actually I used pottery substrate for indoor plants, less nutrients, but still WAY too much and just as messy, wich I found out, when trying to catch a Mastacembelus from such a tank.....) in 1978....................

My riverine catfishtank:

detail:

This tank contains:
4 18 year old Mochokiella paynee
7 Corydoras robinae
3 Amphilius rheophilus
1 caecomastacembelus cryptacanthus
2 Acanthopsis choirorhynchus (Horsehead Loach)
2 Betta cf pugnax
4 Betta picta

clothahump · Post by **clothahump** » 06 May 2003, 13:28

The pond compost I use is basically just Clay mixed with sand, if it works with pond plants it has got to help in my aquariums.
What are the plants in the tank pictured Sid?

Post by **Dinyar** » 06 May 2003, 13:44

Tim,

Clay + sand not = compost. Clay + sand = 100% inorganic. Compost = ~100% organic.

Also, pond not = aquarium.

Dinyar

clothahump · Post by **clothahump** » 06 May 2003, 16:14

This is what Tetra have to say about the Pond compost.

TetraPond Aquatic Compost is a specially formulated blend of sterilised soils and a slow release organic fertiliser which will promote healthy growth of all pond plants. The high loam content of TetraPond Compost will prevent clouding of the pond water, while the slow release fertiliser encourages plant and not algae growth. TetraPond Aquatic Compost is fully sterilised to prevent the introduction of any pests or diseases into your pond.

I agree it is for ponds but it works just as well in the aquarium, better than using Cat litter as some do.

Sid Guppy · Post by **Sid Guppy** » 06 May 2003, 16:32

Plants are:
Crinum natans (African Onion)
Nymphea lotus (Tigerlily)
Cryptocoryne ponterifolia
Cryptocoryne affinis
Anubias barteri
Anubias sp nana
Lemna minor (Duckweed)
Pistia stratoides (Floating Water Lettuce)
Riccia fluitans

Beechroots from a peatbog
riversand (put through a sieve to get all the gravel out)
a few riverine round rocks (collected in Southern France, the Vezere-river, close to the famous painted caves of the Cro-magnonman)
PURfoam back- and sidepanels.

The Anubias were attached to the foampanels with wooden coctail-sticks.

btw about ponds: most people I know who have a pond with either a green water-problem, blue-greens (cyanobacteria) or too much filamentous algae, usually have those substrates in the pond. (and feed the fish too much too)
IMO all those pondsubstrates are a load of Pleco-manure!
They sell you that, so they can be sure you have a truckloads of problems with that pond and you'll be back to buy
pondclear
anti-algae
"oxygen plants" (eleodea, hornworth etc)
a huge, expensive mechanical filter
etc
etc
etc

You wouldn't believe the amount of sheer rubbish invented to trick people into buying more of it, and spending all their hard-earned money in those "garden malls". Ever since Koi-carps became a hype, that particular industry went through the roof.....

Beware! A good pond is even less work and less cash than a good tank; after building it, you SHOULDN'T have to do ANYTHING to make it work!

clothahump · Post by **clothahump** » 06 May 2003, 17:00

Well I must be doing something right as in the 3.5 months it has been set up I have had no algae outbreak and the plants have taken off at a good rate of growth.
Albino Ancistrus are sitting on eggs in two locations in the tank and the Angels are pairing up.

Post by **Dinyar** » 06 May 2003, 21:21

Sid,

How big is the tank and how much lighting do you have on it?

What is your experience with the Nymphea?

Do you think it would be safe from being eaten by Ctenochromis horei?

Dinyar

Sid Guppy · Post by **Sid Guppy** » 06 May 2003, 22:52

Currently I've got Nymphea's in all my non-breeding tanks.

Ctenochromis will probably nip it too, like my Tropheus do. Adding more veggies to it's diet might help; or you might usde a trick wich I use: "overload" the tank with live plants!

This way the demolishers don't know where to start!
My light amount is between 1,4-2 watts per square decimeter, and I make the day fairly long (14 hours or so).
nymphea's should be prime when you buy them; just a hard, brown bole, but it should be heavy, hard and non smelly. If it's light it's already dead, and you must ask to smell and hold the bole. A fine, heavy bole wityhout any roots or leaves usually yields a fine lily; whereas a fairly big plant with a light or smelly bole usually dies within weeks.
The bigger the bole the bigger the lily! In this, they're exactly like pondlily's; if you ever bought those, you know it's the root that makes the plant; a fine, heavy root will produce a big beautiful lily.

Crinums are even stronger than lily's; they should have a huge "onion" (wich has to be heavy and non smelly too) few roots, short or thin leaves is no problem; with a big "onion" the whole tank will be overgrown pretty soon.

Crypto's, Lily's and Crinums all contain silica crystals in the plant cells. Few plant eating fish like that.
You can give your Cteno's a treat (and save the plants too) by adding duckweed -Lemna minor- to the tank! It's excellent food, everything that survives will evolve into thousants of small nitrate destructors and they give shade too. Definitely worth the nothing (they should be free!)

SynoPetri · Post by **SynoPetri** » 07 May 2003, 08:04

Your tanks are looking good.

clothahump · Post by **clothahump** » 14 May 2003, 22:09

"UPDATE"

SynoPetri · Post by **SynoPetri** » 16 May 2003, 18:52

Looks nice! Which fish are in it?

clothahump · Post by **clothahump** » 16 May 2003, 20:04

Angels, Emperor Tetras, Glowlight Tetras, One Silvertip Tetra, Corydoras Agassizii, Upside down Synodontis and some Albino Ancistrus.