Shane..

flyinmike · Post by **flyinmike** » 15 Oct 2003, 02:19

I was told to ask you. I had posted a question about fish collecting in SA. Got a couple of answers but they referred to Brazil and Peru mainly. I was wondering about Columbia. Is that a stable enough area for Americans to go fish collecting? Are there any "tour companies" there?

Post by **Shane** » 15 Oct 2003, 02:43

Bad times for collectors right now. Here is what the Department of State officially says,

"The security situation in Colombia is volatile. Violence by narcotraffickers, paramilitary groups, guerrilla and terrorist organizations, and other criminal elements is widespread and increasing in certain areas. Travel by road outside the major cities is especially dangerous because of guerrilla activity in rural areas.

Some terrorist groups have targeted foreigners, multinational companies and other foreign interests, and this pattern is expected to continue in the future. Random bombings have occurred in and around major urban areas, including attacks on civilian targets. A bombing at an exclusive social club in Bogota on February 7, 2003, left 36 dead and 160 injured. Terrorist groups have also targeted public facilities and modes of transportation. The Government of Colombia has instituted extraordinary security measures around the tourist area in the colonial, walled part of Cartagena frequented by cruise line passengers.

Kidnapping for ransom occurs more often in Colombia than in any other country in the world, and affects all parts of the country, especially rural areas. In the last three years, 26 American citizens, mostly dual nationals, were reported kidnapped. Of these, their captors released most after a ransom was paid. Colombian authorities rescued one. American kidnap or murder victims have included journalists, missionaries, scientists, human rights workers and businesspeople, as well as persons on tourism or family visits, and even small children."

Right now Venezuela is just about as bad and Bolivia is on the verge of civil war. Brazil is also pretty much off limits due to their laws. That pretty much leaves you Peru, where there are organized tours, or Ecuador. There are no organized fish tours in Ecuador, but it is a pretty easy place to get around and there are lots of neat fish to be found. Argentina might be anotther choice, but I have never been there. Guayana could be another good choice as there are pretty much no laws. They are one of the last countries that still allows the exportation of primates (in case you want to grab a monkey while you are out).
-Shane

flyinmike · Post by **flyinmike** » 15 Oct 2003, 03:25

Thanks for the heads up even though that's not what I wanted to hear. When we're through with Iraq maybe we should try to clean up a little closer to home.

Post by **Barbie** » 15 Oct 2003, 03:27

*takes the spoon away from flyinmike* Now now now, don't you go stirring THAT pot, if you please!

Barbie

flyinmike · Post by **flyinmike** » 15 Oct 2003, 03:30

Another quick question. Through Barbie I heard you said a fuel tanker spill wiped out a majority of the fish in the are where the blue eyed panaque hails from. How long ago did this happen and how long do you think it will be before we start seeing them in the US again? OK, that was two.

flyinmike · Post by **flyinmike** » 15 Oct 2003, 03:37

Barbie wrote:*takes the spoon away from flyinmike* Now now now, don't you go stirring THAT pot, if you please!

Barbie

I know, I know. Its just that even after the 12 years or so since I've actually seen one locally that I would love to have a blue eyed and between fuel spills and guerillas and drug lords I can't.

YouTube · Post by **Jools** » 15 Oct 2003, 08:10

flyinmike wrote:
Barbie wrote:*takes the spoon away from flyinmike* Now now now, don't you go stirring THAT pot, if you please!

Barbie
I know, I know. Its just that even after the 12 years or so since I've actually seen one locally that I would love to have a blue eyed and between fuel spills and guerillas and drug lords I can't.

And because of them, wild populations may have a chance to re-establish themselves before you go in and "clean them up". I know that commercial fish collecting for the aquarium trade rarely damages fish stocks, but this one in particular worries me. There is such a high demand and such a weak population it appears.

Jools

Sid Guppy · Post by **Sid Guppy** » 15 Oct 2003, 09:06

Not to mention the fact that "cleaning up the country" US style isn't good for the environment.

I cannot imagine how artillery using uranium-headed live rounds, and bombing with B52's from 5000 feet will be good for the rainforests.......

The herbicides they spray to destroy the coca-crops is doing already a lot of damage on anything else

Ben · Post by **Ben** » 15 Oct 2003, 09:50

*sigh* If only we could combine the peacefull nature of Canadians, with a wide selection of catfish, the world would be a perfect place ;)

Now setting aside all war talk. I know what you mean about wanting to visit such places. Were that I could (a. affor to), and (b. get past the violence) I would LOVE to go to Brazil. Not to catch, but to watch. I would really get a kick out of seeing both the fish and the frogs I love in thier natural habitat! We have some lovely streams and rivers here...but not a catfish to be seen

flyinmike · Post by **flyinmike** » 15 Oct 2003, 13:30

SG_Eurystomus wrote:Not to mention the fact that "cleaning up the country" US style isn't good for the environment.

I cannot imagine how artillery using uranium-headed live rounds, and bombing with B52's from 5000 feet will be good for the rainforests.......

The herbicides they spray to destroy the coca-crops is doing already a lot of damage on anything else

#1- This isn't the place to start spewing anti-american propaganda. I'm sure there is a web site designed specifically for that. Please use it.

#2- Perhaps if you had crack heads and coke addicts in your schools trying to sell to your sons and daughters you would want to do something too. While I agree herbicides may not be the best way, it beats some of the alternatives.

flyinmike · Post by **flyinmike** » 15 Oct 2003, 13:34

Jools wrote:And because of them, wild populations may have a chance to re-establish themselves before you go in and "clean them up". I know that commercial fish collecting for the aquarium trade rarely damages fish stocks, but this one in particular worries me. There is such a high demand and such a weak population it appears.

Jools

Sadly, I have to agree with you on that. There is hope though. I hear that some Austrlians have a successful breeding program going on in large outdoor ponds. Maybe one day some of those will make it to the US. I shudder to think what the price will be but I will pay it. Thanks for the insight, Mike

Sid Guppy · Post by **Sid Guppy** » 15 Oct 2003, 15:48

I'll say this in just ONE post and then leave it at that;

To disagree with war isn't "anti-american", the world isn't devided into just "warlike pro-bush Americans" and "enemies" There's more than Black 'n' White, you know.

And to stop bad drug things to happen, is to stop using it in the first place, if something gets worthless (as in nobody buys it) the market collapses; economy lesson #1.
Americans should stop sniffing or buying the stuff and then there's no problem at all.

btw If I "should use another website to post anti-american propaganda", I strongly recommend YOU to use that same website (or an opposing one if you like) to spew " rightwing emire-building neocon propaganda" yourself.

You want people not to be offensive? Then give a good example by not being offensive yourself in the first place!!

btw If-according to you- it's "unamerican" to disagree with war, I recommend you read the constitution of the USA; first amandment: freedom of speech and expression.

flyinmike · Post by **flyinmike** » 15 Oct 2003, 23:44

SG_Eurystomus wrote:I'll say this in just ONE post and then leave it at that;

To disagree with war isn't "anti-american", the world isn't devided into just "warlike pro-bush Americans" and "enemies" There's more than Black 'n' White, you know.

And to stop bad drug things to happen, is to stop using it in the first place, if something gets worthless (as in nobody buys it) the market collapses; economy lesson #1.
Americans should stop sniffing or buying the stuff and then there's no problem at all.

btw If I "should use another website to post anti-american propaganda", I strongly recommend YOU to use that same website (or an opposing one if you like) to spew " rightwing emire-building neocon propaganda" yourself.

You want people not to be offensive? Then give a good example by not being offensive yourself in the first place!!

btw If-according to you- it's "unamerican" to disagree with war, I recommend you read the constitution of the USA; first amandment: freedom of speech and expression.

I made no statement about being "anti-american" by disagreeing with war. I simply stated that you were (and I should have used a nicer word than spewing) stating "propaganda" when you started in with the radio-active bullets thing or whatever.

Free speech? I don't even feel you need to be American to have that. Anyone anywhere should be able to voice thier opinion.

The main thing that bothered me was you automatically assuming that I am a "warlike pro-bush American." Is that because I live in Texas where Bush happens to be from? Because I'll say this right now, you don't even know me. I know there are times when war is necessary, like when we helped save Europe (and probably the world) from Naziism. But I also know, feel, and believe there is more than one way to skin a cat (not fish). Just to use one country as an example, Mexico has been brought forward by leaps and bounds not by an invasionary force but by economic help and free trade agreements etc. That is not the only C. or S. American country that has or is recieving the same. When I used Iraq in my statement it was a whole lot more about the $87 Billion dollars that is going to be spent there just in this next year. We can't afford to do anything, peaceful or not, until that is over with.

The drug problem. Yes it would be nice if we could just say "don't do it" and everybody would listen. The problem is you have Columbian mafia (yes, there really is one) working as hard as they can to get their product into the schools and playgrounds of America. I'm talking 10 years old and even younger. When I was 10 there was no need whatsoever for my parents to explain to me about crack etc. Now you have to start telling them in grade school.

Now, I'll admit I left my original statement wide open for interpretation, but it was made more to express my displeasure at the species of fish we are not able to aquire than to rally the troops for war. I hope I got all that said without being too offensive. I realize (and you should too) that being from different parts of the world the same words can be read many ways. I wil try to explain future statements better so that all may get a better idea of what I'm trying to say.

S. Allen · Post by **S. Allen** » 16 Oct 2003, 00:11

now now guys...

Just as this is not a place to spew anti-american propaganda... it is not necessarily the place to spew pro-american propaganda. This is an international FISH board... mild political debates are ok but this one seems to have the ability to royally piss off people on both sides.

Flyinmike, you'd do well to see the money we invest in Colombia, wish I still had that article detailing the breakdown of funds... A disturbingly low amount was going towards anything but military things. Shane may have some info on that for us.

The drug problem is supply and demand, not just supply.

RogerMcAllen · Post by **RogerMcAllen** » 16 Oct 2003, 01:40

I think the issue is black and white. Either you are with us, or you are a cichlid keeper.

Post by **Barbie** » 16 Oct 2003, 01:45

Hi, I think maybe this thread got a WEE little bit off topic. Fish collecting, south america, when, where and how ring a bell? Please realize that this is not a subject that you can regularly find 2 people to agree upon, let alone the hundreds that read this board every day. I realize everyone has an opinion, and a right to their opinion, but this isn't the place for airing those, please. This thread is about fish collecting...

ROFL, cichlid keeper!

Barbie

Post by **Dinyar** » 16 Oct 2003, 02:44

flyinmike wrote:When we're through with Iraq maybe we should try to clean up a little closer to home.

Flyinmike,

Perhaps you did not mean it that way, but the sentence quoted above was read by many people (including me) as inflammatory incitement. Sid simply threw some heated words back. If you said something like this in a developing country...

As you wisely suggested, why don't we keep talk about cleaning up other countries for another forum and stick to discussing cleaning up our fish tanks here?

Dinyar

flyinmike · Post by **flyinmike** » 16 Oct 2003, 02:48

Yes Barbie, you are very right. Back to the thread. Before I was sidetracked my next post was going to be:

So, Shane, that was the official state department statement. What is the real skinny? Is it as bad as all of that. I wasn't really thinking along the lines of a commercial tour. More along the lines of a working holiday with the benefit of being able to bring a few fish home. Of course I guess I need to remember the language barrier thing. Any suggestions?

metallhd · Post by **metallhd** » 16 Oct 2003, 05:05

Well Mike, it seems you've opened a can of worms - regardless, it also seems to me that if you are even remotely unsure of what you're bringing into a country from another country that you should consider the practicality. I am sure most customs agents would gleefully pounce on exotic wildlife being imported just as quickly as exotic drugs, and unless you've the stones to risk gaol and a whopping fine maybe you should stick with local fish - try explaining the difference between one pl*co and another to someone who's already decided that 'you're busted'. Good luck!

flyinmike · Post by **flyinmike** » 16 Oct 2003, 13:08

metallhd wrote:Well Mike, it seems you've opened a can of worms - regardless, it also seems to me that if you are even remotely unsure of what you're bringing into a country from another country that you should consider the practicality. I am sure most customs agents would gleefully pounce on exotic wildlife being imported just as quickly as exotic drugs, and unless you've the stones to risk gaol and a whopping fine maybe you should stick with local fish - try explaining the difference between one pl*co and another to someone who's already decided that 'you're busted'. Good luck!

No, no, no. Nothing here illegal for me. Anything I do would have to be "above the table". Generally (from what I understand) when you go on the fish collecting tours the people/company in charge are/is an exporter and they ship your fish out to you just like the rest of the fish they have collected. I'm for sure not talking about any type of fish not allowed in the state of Texas..

jscoggs27 · Post by **jscoggs27** » 16 Oct 2003, 13:08

Hi all,
Have just read this topic three times over to make sure my eyes werent decieving me.
Now I remember the reason why I couldnt be asked to log on to planet catfish forum for a couple of months.
Oh well, looks like i need another long vacation in the axis of evil!
see ya

flyinmike · Post by **flyinmike** » 16 Oct 2003, 13:28

Early in this thread I made a statement that I now realize could easily be (and was) taken in totally the wrong way. It was more like the child that hollers "I hate you" as they stomp out of the room after being told "no you can't do this or that". They totally don't mean it, but the words can still have a sting to them.

Well, to anyone who was offended by my statement I truly apologize. I did not mean to upset anyone at all. I love Planet Catfish and the forums. I have learned a lot here and hope to continue doing so. I will endeavor to think a little harder about what I'm writing BEFORE I post it!

Again, I truly apologize to anyone who was offended. Thank you and may all your cats "live long and prosper". Mike..

Caol_ila · Post by **Caol_ila** » 16 Oct 2003, 13:28

Hi!

Wasnt there just very recently a case of tourists being taken hostage by rebels in Colombia? With this brit guy fleeing and being found by indios half starved...

Concerning venezuela: I wanted to go there with my girlfriend on vacation (Isla margerita) and called the information hotline by the german foreign department and they said (that wa s during the summer) that they dont advise germans to go to mainland Venezuela or to move outside tourist areas especially borderland to Col.
Good luck

Sid Guppy · Post by **Sid Guppy** » 16 Oct 2003, 14:31

I've been to Equador, and have visited the norethern most wildlife reserve in the rainforest, wich is just south of the Colombian border. NO problem whatsoever.

The strangest thing we heard was that "it's more dangerous for US-citizens to do that for people from anywhere else"???

Didn't see a single rebel; LOTS of military checkpoints though.

MC · Post by MC » 17 Oct 2003, 02:25

*sigh*

König Löwe · Post by **König Löwe** » 17 Oct 2003, 15:37

How is the situation in Venezuela right now? Are the right-wing people still trying to get back in power? I know about the coup last year, but I sort of hoped that things had calmed down since then...

Sid Guppy · Post by **Sid Guppy** » 17 Oct 2003, 17:26

MC, no kidding, that's what a lot of locals told us.
I'm not -definitely honest!- trying to piss off North Americans.

I went with a group; a guy from Quito, a local Native guide, two Belgium girls and 5 people from Pennsylvania. Needless to say, the Pennsylvanians weren't relaxed for the first few days. they relaxed once it turned out to be utterly bogus, and we had a very fine Jungle-trip.

Caol_ila · Post by **Caol_ila** » 17 Oct 2003, 17:38

Hi!

Its definately better for the rainforest if people think you cant go there because of rebels...

flyinmike · Post by **flyinmike** » 18 Oct 2003, 00:36

SG_Eurystomus wrote:MC, no kidding, that's what a lot of locals told us.
I'm not -definitely honest!- trying to piss off North Americans.

I went with a group; a guy from Quito, a local Native guide, two Belgium girls and 5 people from Pennsylvania. Needless to say, the Pennsylvanians weren't relaxed for the first few days. they relaxed once it turned out to be utterly bogus, and we had a very fine Jungle-trip.

I'm sure there is some truth to that. After all, I don't think any other countries have DEA and CIA agents attempting to infiltrate the area. If I was a guerrilla and saw a couple of Americans trudging up the river, I would probably assume that they were such an agents. Maybe I could develope an accent? G'day mates..

metallhd · Post by **metallhd** » 18 Oct 2003, 01:55

Caol_ila wrote:Hi!

Its definately better for the rainforest if people think you cant go there because of rebels...

Nicely put - the balance between research and leisure is fine, and while preservation is critical progress rages unchecked - not all resources are sustainable and species disappear every day. We can regulate only our own actions - to whom do you answer?

Shane..

Shane..

Apology!!