PlanetCatfish.com

This Window seems to be the most inactive in the forum. Granted that Most American catfish are too Robust for keeping but on the other hand so are some of the most popular south americans. What im getting at is there some specific reason that fish out of this genus (ictaluridae) are not more popular. Seems that Many fish of the Ameiurus and Noturus species would be very keepable for most catfish fanatics. In adition there are many many other native fish that would make suitable aquarium fish . Cichlid people would like many of the sunfish and smaller bass species that are great fish. And smaller fish like the many types of darters would be ideal, or Dace, Shiners, Perch, Silversides, and a few species of minnow. All these fish being native to Kansas im sure the rest of the continent has much more diversity. Wouldnt even need a heater So why does it seem that the fish from this region go mostly ignored in the aquarium hobby?

Here is a link to many of the fish that live in Kansas where im from
http://www.kansasfishes.com/index.html

There are several reasons why:

1. A vast majority of hobbyists started out with tropicals and would probably stick to what they are familiar with. Besides, it's so much easier to drive to an LFS to purchase tropical fish or to buy them online than to go out and catch your own native fish (which requires the additional trouble of purchasing a fishing permit in some states).

2. Although madtoms and bullheads are wonderfully diverse and fantastic catfishes to maintain in an aquarium, they represent only one family (Ictaluridae) after all, and one that is neither very morphologically diverse nor colorful. This doesn't sit well with people who like diversity and bold colors (I for one, prefer dull brown and gray catfishes to something with bold colors; I will never buy a Hypancistrus zebra, for example).
The same thing can probably be said for non-catfish tankmates. Sunfish and pumpkinseeds may be pretty to look at, but they cannot beat tropical fish for the sheer diversity of colors

3. Most madtoms are not easily maintained in the aquarium. It's true that they don't need heating, but many species require well-oxygenated water, preferably with a current. And they are not the easiest of catfishes to breed either (which is not to say that it is impossible to breed them, just not as easy as say, Corydoras).

4. Outside of North America, most ictalurids (channel catfishes aside) are not easily available to aquarists (actually, they are virtually unavailable). Even if they could be, importing and owning them would require a permit in some cases (as in the UK), which just imposes too much trouble for all involved (importers and aquarists).

I would also like to see a more active discussion on North American catfishes, but given that conoisseurs of North American fishes are a mere drop in the bucket, this is unlikely to happen.

I agree with you that North American Catfish are too often ignored. I personally find Bullheads to be extremely beautiful fish and I enjoy watching them more than I do more tropical fish. I had a friend that kept bullheads and the problem eventually was tank size. He would love to keep bullheads or channel cats, but tank size limits him so he has tropical fish now. It's a shame, because the bullheads were so exciting to watch.

Well, if he had yellow bullheads, he could stunt 'em by not bothering to switch to a bigger tank as they grew, as they are wont to do in the wild when the populations reach high densities in small bodies of water.
I would not recommend it, but it's possible.

4. Outside of North America, most ictalurids (channel catfishes aside) are not easily available to aquarists (actually, they are virtually unavailable). Even if they could be, importing and owning them would require a permit in some cases (as in the UK), which just imposes too much trouble for all involved (importers and aquarists).

definitely true!
I'm in the hobby for over 29 years, and catfishes are my preference, but I have NEVER seen any Madtom around in any shop, ever.

There's quite a demand for small, freshwater catfishes (the occasional bullhead and Channelcats are available), but we can't get them.

Our climate is well suited for such fish.

Unfortunately most native North American fish are scarce, except for Sunfish (Lepomis gibbosus) and Channelcats (Ictalurus, wich are bred here in numbers), less common are bullheads (Ameiurus), Jordanella, Notropis lutrensis and another species of Lepomis (also bred but in smaller numbers or by hobbyists), that's about it.
It takes years to track down Elassoma, striped Notropis, or anything else.

I remember stumbling across Etheostoma once. That was the first shipment out of the US in decades and they were horribly expensive for obvious reasons.

Yes the availability is a of madtoms and bullheads is a problem im sure, which if put on the market would probibally be more popular. However im still curious as to why they are not more available. Also take a look at some of the native darters in the link i posted. Very colorful and atractive fish I think. However as silurus pointed out its not practical to go and catch fish all the time. Me personally I just might give it a try because darters are very nice looking fish. But i think if some LFS overseas stocked a tank with some nice darters and madtoms they would sell like hotcakes.

I suspect that madtoms and darters do not take to travelling long distances well. This is because of their need for cooler, more oxygen-rich water (darters are even more demanding than madtoms. I was given some darters once, which I placed in an unheated tank in a heated room. The temperature was still too high for them and they all died within a day).

This means that if an importer were to bring in such fish, the numbers of fish per bag would be much lower (or else a very high DOA rate might result). Because of the lower numbers per bag, the fish would have to be sold at higher prices for a profit to be made.

Now, colorful as they may be, madtoms (and darters) still do not hold the allure of many tropical cats (people are not likely to shell out tens of dollars to purchase darters/madtoms even though they will willingly pay ten times as much for loricariids), which are hardier and can be shipped in higher densities (and will therefore be cheaper). Add to that the more stringent fishing regulations in the US, the paucity of companies exporting North American fishes for the ornamental fish trade, and the fact that quite a number of the more attractively-patterned fish are protected by law, and it becomes much more evident why North American native fishes are so rare in the trade...there are just too many hoops for the exporter/importer to jump through and the profit margin would be too small.

One rather striking exception to the rule is Notropis lutrensis. When I was in Singapore, these were offered for sale fairly frequently (but only the males were sold). But these were probably captive-bred stock from East Asia (most likely in China) rather than imports from the US (or Canada).

Well Ill buy that. Thats the actual logic I was looking for as to the why. But I still dont like it

FatCat wrote:But i think if some LFS overseas stocked a tank with some nice darters and madtoms they would sell like hotcakes.

For those of you in the US who like to keep your native fish you do of course have NANFA, who have their own very active e-mail list.
Over here in the UK it is simply not feasible to go through all the licensing required to obtain and keep these fish, even though they are stunning in appearance. Until the legislation was tightened up regarding these fish some Madtoms, Shiners, Dace and Darters did find their way into shops, but the market was small and specialized.
We even had a few shipments of Bowfins!
A Bullhead was actually the first Catfish I ever had, back when they were easily available over here. These and Channel Cats are caught on occasion in UK lakes and rivers from released aquarium fish, but I don't think there have been successful reproduction.
Pete

kinda hard to believe, but i lived on the gulf of mexico 20years ago or so, i used to fish all of the time; back then we considered catfish to be a scavenger fish or a "trash fish": my my my , how things have changed!!!!

Silurus wrote:There are several reasons why:
3. Most madtoms are not easily maintained in the aquarium. It's true that they don't need heating, but many species require well-oxygenated water, preferably with a current. And they are not the easiest of catfishes to breed either (which is not to say that it is impossible to breed them, just not as easy as say, Corydoras

if i may add to this. i collect locally in the northern ohio area in the united states. one of the things here in ohio on madtoms is they can not be shipped out of state without special permitting. on top of that they can not be sold they must be sent out for scientific study only.

to answer some of the madtom question: it is true that they prefer cooler water. i collect from early spring till late fall. in fact will try to get out this week end. the best luck that i have in collecting is in late fall. water tempature now is about 65 degrees f*.
i collect them on fast running rifts that believe it or not are only 3 -4 inches deep. i have never had any luck collecting when the water tempature has exceded 74 degree f*. i beleive the oxegan level in this particular stream is to low for the madtom to survive and flurious. i have kept them in home aquariums. i use a power head and no heater in the tank. i am only able to get them to eat live foods. they are not real active in the home tank and eat almost as if they are a filter eater. they face the current and snatch up black worms as they come by.

breeding these fish is very difficult. i believe they breed when the water reaches 50 degrees or so. the winters here are cold and the water literally goes to around 33-35 degrees for a few months. when i collect very early in spring i have found females very plumb. but never any luck in the aquarium. i personally have never breed them.

one last thing on these great little catfish. i have as i said never caught any of these guys in the local streams when the water temp has exceded 74 degrees. it is my opinion when the water starts warming that the catfish in the streams flowing north to lake erie actually migrate for a few months to the cooler deeper lake erie. that is only a theory and i am not a scientist, however i have nor has any of my counter parts ever caught any of these fish in the hotter summer ohio months.

the shipping i have found to be difficult. i have given many specimens to ingo when he is in town. we pack just one fish per bag with a lot of air. his plane trip taks about 14 hours from cleveland and our success rate is only about 50%

i have kept madtoms on and off for many years. i hope this adds to the conversation and encourages further discussion.

please if there are any further questions feel free to ask.

ken walker

I would love to keep american catfish (or european for that matter), but I'm certain I can't keep them cool enough during the summer.There is also an other concern, they would probably do well in each others ecosystem - americans in europe or vice versa - and we all know the problems that may cause. So actually I'm glad there not that easily available, only the truly dedicated catfish keepers would think it's worth the trouble and try to care for them as best they could.

Pectorale

To those interested in American Native catfish,
I offer the Stonecat and the Tadpole Madtom for sale through my website, "http://www.btdarters.com". I have found them both to be easy to keep in the aquarium, as long as you keep them with fish that are too small to fit in their mouths. They may like higher oxygen concentrations but as I have kept them with darters, who also have higher oxygen requirements, I have had no problems. All you need is an extra airstone or powerhead. Take a look at my site. I have some nice pictures of Stonecats, even a blue morph. Please note, though, that shipping is suspended until the weather warms up. Enjoy!

Looking outside of the grim situation with catfish...what about the cyprinids, poecillids, and the killies, sunfish?

Many of the cyprinids in the US could rival most characins(and surpass others, such as the Buenos Aires or the bloodfin). Ditto with the killies, though only a select few N american killies sport color, most are interesting because of there patterning. Sunfish are also hard to come by(unless you live in there range or want pumpkinseeds). If I saw any of these fish at my petstore(with a reasonable price tag, I think this is the reason why native are unpopular), I'd snap em up, and Im sure lots of people would too. Some of the Florida killies don't mind warm water.


Then, check out Jonahsaquarium.coms pricing. Not exactly economical by any means. Esp. the price on fathead minnows....lol

As a sidenote, did anyone see the rapidfire(well, 5 or so) auctions for native cyprinids on aquabid a month or 2 ago. They were quickly snapped up. All we need is to get the species into the hobby, with a dedicated breeder who is willing to distribute fish outside of the little nativefish clan.

nonamethefish wrote:All we need is to get the species into the hobby, with a dedicated breeder who is willing to distribute fish outside of the little nativefish clan.

I agree, and I hope that my company will be that breeder in the future.

BTDarters wrote:To those interested in American Native catfish,
I offer the Stonecat and the Tadpole Madtom for sale through my website, "http://www.btdarters.com". I have found them both to be easy to keep in the aquarium, as long as you keep them with fish that are too small to fit in their mouths.

I always have much better luck with the Slender Madtom than the very similar Stonecat, or even the Tadpole Madtom. I've also found that Slender Madtoms will survive very long periods (at least many months) on nothing but flake food and can tolerate temperatures in the range of tropicals for at least a week. Locally (Missouri) I have found Slender and Tadpole Madtoms thriving in waters that stay above 80° F for weeks at a time. The Stonecats in the same drainages seek cooler water during these times it seems.

I'm planning a refrigerated riffle tank for some of the harder-to-keep varieties of madtoms, along with sculpins, darters, and other Ozark-type fish. I have the mechanisms from an old Fridgidair, a water fountain, and window airconditioners to choose from but haven't decided which to go with. Does anyone have experience in designing such a contraption?

Whatcheeriid wrote:I always have much better luck with the Slender Madtom than the very similar Stonecat, or even the Tadpole Madtom. I've also found that Slender Madtoms will survive very long periods (at least many months) on nothing but flake food and can tolerate temperatures in the range of tropicals for at least a week. Locally (Missouri) I have found Slender and Tadpole Madtoms thriving in waters that stay above 80° F for weeks at a time. The Stonecats in the same drainages seek cooler water during these times it seems.

Good to know. Readers should check the status of the Slender Madtom in their state before keeping it, however. In BTDarters' home state of Wisconsin, the slender madtom is an endangered species.

Very true. Anyone collecting from the wild is well advised to get a list of protected species from the Conservation Department or DNR and familiarize themsevles with it before collecting. Sometimes the species are on the list due to a limited and threatened habitat but has a heavy population where it does occur. In these cases requests for permits to collect and keep specimens are almost welcomed from responsible people, as it may be the only way the species will survive if the habitat is destroyed in the wild.

Luckily, here in Missouri the Slender Madtom is common and widespread. I was in on one count that collected over 200 adult Slenders and around 100 Stonecats from a sampling of 1/8 mile of a smallish tributary. Only Red Shiners outnumbered them at that location. If I recall correctly (check with officials before acting on this!) the Slender Madtom falls under bait fish rules in Missouri.

I can agree with the stated reasons why american catfish haven't made more of a splash in the aquarium hobby.

In my state (ohio) the law prohibits you from being able to collect and keep local catfish, or sell them. I suspect that this law goes largely uninforced. You're allowed to catch and eat them from local waters but you you can't keep them in a tank. I've heared that ohio laws pretaining to collecting and maintaining native fish are particularly strict.
I traded some madtoms to petland, and they actually sold them, then later the manager (then myself) learned of the pertaining laws and told me he didn't want anymore.
You can find local fish that rival tropical fish in attractiveness, but collecting them is often a load of trouble. An interesting sidenote- i kept asking the guy at the bait store if he had any catfish in his minnow shipments and often he would give me small bullheads. I found out later that he started removing them from his minnows and started selling them separately.

I belive the problem with north american catfish trade is that too much attention is givin to the larger breeds (Channel,blue,flatheat) and its mostly fishing and consumption I mean up untill today other than three types of catfish I listed I was only aware of gafftops,hardheads,and the bullhead group of catfishes and I wouldent have known about them if it werent for fishing I know that I know their are some other catfish in our waters want to learn about them

now that I know that their are other catfish in american waters what kinds would I find down here in Texas?

Discounting ariids, you have:

Ameiurus melas - black bullhead

Ameiurus natalis - yellow bullhead

Ictalurus furcatus - blue catfish

Ictalurus lupus - headwater catfish

Ictalurus punctatus - channel catfish

Noturus gyrinus - tadpole madtom

Noturus nocturnus - freckled madtom

Pylodictis olivaris - flathead catfish

Satan eurystomus - widemouth blindcat

Trogloglanis pattersoni - toothless blindcat