PlanetCatfish.com

For the bottom layer, I'm planning on getting Eco Complete Planted http://www.caribsea.com/pages/produc...ted_aquar.html in either one of the first two, or the Floramax Original. Or Flourite Black Sand or Onyx Sand http://www.seachem.com/Products/prod.../Flourite.html. Or a similar product, depending on prices and what I can find.

I plan on laying a shallow cap of Super Naturals in either Amazon or Rio Grande.

Or just using Super Naturals alone as the sole substrate.

I have banjo catfish, pygmy corys, kuhli and zebra loaches. My questions are, will the banjo catfish be able to burrow in these substrates? If so, will they mess it all up or would the Super Naturals settle to the top?

Will any of these substrates hurt their sensitive barbels?

Random questions:

Will fish waste settle into the substrate and get icky like it does with my inert Aquasoil, or will it degrade and feed the plant roots?

How long does Flourite or Eco Complete nutrition for plants last? What I mean is, how long until the vitamins and minerals are used up by the plants and it becomes inert?

Do I need to use root tabs while using Flourite or Eco Complete?

Franbkly, I have not a clue what you are writing about

I use sand, for construction purposes, which I rinse sometimes, bu quite often it went into the tnaks without any rinsing. In those cases the water may become a bit cloudy, but after a while it will brighten up

Many plants grow nicely in this soil, but some plants - Echionodorus for instance - need a more solid substrate. In these cases I use dried clay from my garden, pulverised and wetted. I mix a bit of sand (rinsed) in and top it off wit the same sand.

Costs? almost nothing and if you would life more closeby, I could help you to a lot of plants

Fluorite/Fluorite sand, Onyx sand, Eco complete and the supernaturals look far from ideal for corys and their barbels and not great for banjos to bury in. The grains should be small and round/smooth - pool filter sand is a cheap available source good for cats.

You seem to want to have a substrate for plants and incorporate fish which if is correct, you need to carefully consider the fish choices.

I use play sand and carib sea sand in all my tanks, have pl*cos , corys, synos, all are well and happy and my plants grow well.

But I have all regular plants:

anachrius, java fern, java moss, crypts, water wisteria,

If you attempt a layered cake of flourite topped with play sand or fine black sand the different substrates eventually become mixed and the lower density but large particle substrates tend to rise to the top. Still, even if the different materials eventually mix your plants will do quite well.

Still there are many choices; some cheaper some expensive, that work very well. My personal favorite is FloraBase with timed release fertilizer added. Unfortunately it is expensive unless you use it for valuable plants potted in some containers. Florabase is extremely gentle for the species of catfish like Corydoras which dig into substrates but at $20 for 12 pounds plus freight it is extremely expensive for all but the smaller tanks of about 10 gals as the sole substrate. One bag will be enough for a standard 10 gal tank.
Play sand or 20/30 quartz sand is fine grained so problems of fresh water circulation through thick layers can be a problem. But if used with fertilizer tablets or sticks, you can still get good growth assuming you have enough light and the substrate sells at a very reasonable cost. My 100 pound bag of quartz sand only cost $7.50. One bag was plenty for my 125 gal tank.
I usually pot all Cryptocoryne species because they are difficult to transplant and are subject to the notorious Crypt Rot if their root systems are disturbed. I only used two Crypt species planted in larger containers of FloraBase, C. cordata var. "Blassii" and C. crispulata var. "Balansae" in my recently set up 125 gal planted tank

I recently set up my 125 gal tank with 100 pounds of #20/30 grit sand. I potted all my more expensive rooted plants in clear plastic containers filled with Florabase and a fertilizer. 12 pounds bags of FlorasBase will fill a dozen potting containers. I use various Gladware storage containers or the bottom 3-3/4" of 2 liter fruit juice bottles as my pots

The fish waste definitely provides nutrients to the plants to a degree, but there is still a fair amount of just physical mass that is not broken down as fast as it is produced. In my case (planted tank with seachem flourite for about a year) the waste did not drive up the nitrates fast enough for the plants to be unable to use them with regular water changes.

However, if you physically disturbed the substrate, the water would instantly cloud with the waste particles inside of it. Best advice is to get a narrow diameter siphon and get what you can without disturbing plant roots. Avoid stirring up the substrate any more than you have to.

captmicha, here's a bit of friendly advice on using the forum - it's a bit daunting for people reading the post to be confronted with so many questions at once. Try to start with one question, and "feed" additional questions in as the thread progresses. People are more likely to offer advice if what they read is short and to the point.

On the subject of substrate, capping sand on top of something with a large particle size will not work. The sand will sink below the larger grains.

As to whether a particular brand will harm the fishes, it's difficult to say without being familiar with each product (the links don't work by the way).

Seeing as you have so many whiskered fishes, getting a substrate that will not harm them should be highest priority.

Hope this helps.

I hope this link works: http://www.caribsea.com/pages/products/super_nat.html

The Amazon looks fairly roundish... Doesn't it?

I suppose pool filter sand will work just as well as any other media as long as I use root tabs. Do you guys agree?

I was thinking about using Miracle Grow potting soil capped with a round gravel or pool filter sand but I don't want the plants to be cemented in place by the Miracle Grow.

I think the use of a layer of soil is an interesting experiment but I think it is more paractical to suse eith inert substrates with fertilizer tablets rather than having the ticking time bomb of a layer of soil.
The hardened clay balls are a better way of providing nutrients without as much risk. Azoo sell ready made balls. I have bought them from www.aquaticeco.com
They last a long time and are inexpensive but still additional fertilizers are needed.

I'm currently using RootMedic in plain quartz sand and am very satisfied with it. http://rootmedic.net/products-page/dry- ... m-complete

The growth has been above average for a tank that is not fertilized in any other way except a bit of Seachem Flourish Excel.

I think I'll use pool filter sand since I've had luck with it in the past (been using it in fry grow outs and QT tanks) and it's nice and smooth and non-abrasive. And fish waste and algae stays on the top and doesn't get mixed in. Plants seem to do well in it too and I haven't even done any root tabs yet and am not regular on dosing my Seachem Flourish and I haven't done any CO2 either.

So... Just imagine my results with CO2, root tabs and keeping up with the Seachem!

I thinking of making my own root tabs which will be AA size vegetable gelatin capsules filled with Osmocote Complete.

Or these: http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/sh ... -Root-Tabs

I was trying to read this http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/sh ... formal-FAQ but got lost... I thought macros were NPK and micros were everything else. I have no idea what traces are and why I should need more than Flourish and root tabs.

Okay, Macros are NPK and accord to that website, I should buy

Spectracide Stump Remover to supplement Nitrate, NuSalt for Potassium, and Fleet Enema for Phosphate (just a few drops).

Can I get away with the above without having to buy a test kit to test for potassium and phosphate?

I'm a little slow... There's a whole bunch I'm probably not understanding.

I have been using Schultz Orchid Fertilizer crystals for years in my heavily planted tanks.
It comes with a scoop of about 1/3 tsp and one scoop every 10 days seems to work fine for a 125 gal tank.
I bought it at Home Depot and it is very cheap.

That's awesome! You use it for the water column, right? It covers the macros, micros and traces?

Are you using it in addition to root tabs?

How about the urea? That doesn't cause a problem? I have orchid fertilizers that are urea free. I have it in the Grow More http://www.amazon.com/GROW-Orchid-Ferti ... B000YL7GDE
and the Bloom More http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000YH ... SWN4QGRJXN

Yes, I use low doses of orchid fertilizer crystals for the water column but I use NutraFin PlantGro Stcks, a timed release fertilizer that can last up to a year in my substrate. For really heavy feeding large potted plants I use one twice a year or as needed.
Soon I will switch to SeaChem Flourish plant tabs since I haven't seen my NutraFin PlantGro Sticks listed lately in the catalogs I get.

I'm sure specialists in aquatic gardening will scoff at my use of orchid fertilizer but I use it very sparingly and aquatic gardening is not my specialty. I just have over 5 years of experience with it and know I get good enough results and have never had any problems with my fish.

There's nothing wrong with using terrestrial plant ferts, as long as you manage the phosphates. Terrestrial ferts generally have many times the phosphates in ratio to Potassium and Nitrogen than aquatic plants. Plenty of aquatic gardeners use Jobes plant sticks and other terrestrial ferts to grow aquatic plants.

Demineralized soil, Schultz aquatic soil, and many other non-aquarium specific substrates are often used capped with sand, along with column dosing, for excellent results.

I chose crystalline Orchid fertilizer because it had relatively low levels of primary macronutrients compared to general purpose fertilizers like Miracle Gro but lots of trace elements. I used essentially the same rationale as you explained, 2 wheels. The fish and the foods they eat provide most of the nitrates, potassium and phosphates aquatic plants need.

In the past I made dilute stock solutions in RO water I could use in any tank. It just happens to work well that I can use about 1/3 tsp of of the Orchid fertilizer crystals to dose my heavily planted 125 gal tank.
It is moderately well lighted but not what I consider high intensity lighting.
I have 2 HO T-5 dual lamp fixtures. 4 X 39 watt, HO T-5 tubes, one each per fixture of 10,000K and ~5000K PlantGro lamps.
It is heavily stocked with fish.
100 Green Neons
18 Nannostomus eques Pencilfish
16 Rummy Nose tetras
12 Black Darter tetras
8 M. pitteri Diamond Tetras
6 Characidium sp Darter tetras
3 Silver hatchets(all that arrived alive out of 25 ordered)
25 common Otocinclus
6 Farlowella sp

I think I'll use the orchid ferts I have since they're urea free and I read that ammonia leads to algae growth... And any excess urea is better avoided if ammonia is why I'm trying to filter out.

If I followed the directions on that website, it would be crazy. I'd have to use several different ferts and even daily. I'm not willing to invest that much time or attention to the plants. No offense to anyone but who sits around doing all of that every day?!

I'm using Shultz Aqua Soil right now in my main tank and I'm not a fan. I don't like how fish waste sinks into it. It seems to do nothing but trap dirt. I also found it was harsh on barbels too. My banjo cats burrow in it but I feel sorry for them b/c I can't imagine it feels very good.

And b/c it traps dirt, I have to sink the gravel vac into it but the pellets always get sucked up. It's annoying.

If I followed the directions on that website, it would be crazy. I'd have to use several different ferts and even daily. I'm not willing to invest that much time or attention to the plants. No offense to anyone but who sits around doing all of that every day?!

Yes, the general consensus now is that daily fertilising is better than weekly. It means there is no shortfall in nutrients for the plants, and this helps even growth and greatly reduces algae problems.

However, if you are most concerned with quality of life for your bottom dwellers, then the best set-up would have a thin layer (2cm) of the softest sand, a covering of leaf litter, and shade provided by floating and bogwood-rooted plants (java fern etc).

I can't use a lot of leaves. My water is already pretty acidic.

captmicha wrote:I can't use a lot of leaves. My water is already pretty acidic.

The leaves have limited ability to lower the pH too much. I don't think if you decide to use more leaves that the pH would drop much if at all. To get the water more acid you would have to use a strong acid like dilute hydrochloric acid(Muriatic Acid) to get a pH much below 6.0. It is only necessary to use a pH lower than 6.0 for a few very demanding fish like Heckel Discus and Altum Angelfish.
If you use more leaves your water will become darker which may or may not be a problem to you.

Oh. I was told differently. I was told that the tannins will acidify my water which seemed to make sense since tannins are acids.

I was told that the tannins will acidify my water which seemed to make sense since tannins are acids.

They will to some degree, but not much. Tannins are not a very strong acid.

It all depends on the buffering capacity of your water as to how much they could change it.

Certainly none of you fishes will complain about slightly acidic water.

Hi all,

scoff at my use of orchid fertilizer

No, I use terrestrial fertilisers as well, usually designed for either Orchids or Citrus, and either of "Growmore" or "Osmocote" in the substrate. Most horticultural fertilisers use ammonium nitrate (NH3NO3 - 33%N) as their nitrogen source, so you need to be careful with those designed for more general plants (Vegetables, Hanging baskets etc.).

Tannins are not a very strong acid. It all depends on the buffering capacity of your water as to how much they could change it.

Very true, all pH effects are entirely dependent upon buffering, that is why one persons pH7.8 may be very different from another's. Our carbonate rich tap water would read pH7.8, but has 17dkH, if I add any amount of humic acids to this it will make little difference to the pH, because the water is strongly carbonate buffered. However If I add a very small volume of a weak alkali to straight RO I can easily raise the pH to pH9 or higher (dependent upon the compound), but any small addition of even a weak acid (like carbonic acid from CO2, tannins from Oak leaves or humic acids from peat )will cause the pH to decline to ~ pH4 or lower (again dependent upon the disassociation constant of the acid).

cheers Darrel

If aquarium water has virtually no alkalinity such as RO water the pH can drop to 3.5 to 4.0 pH easily whether or not one uses any leaves. I have deliberately used such conditions for some Boraras spp, Bettas in the Betta coccina complex and some few Tetras like Poeciliocharax weitzmani.

I really wish I had some Poeciliocharax weitzmani... The ones with the high fins. Sooooo awesome looking!

P. weitzmani can be extremely beautiful fish. However they are extremely reclusive and the males often out number the females and the excess males can cost more females when there are too many males to females. 50/50 or 1 male to every 2 females works best.
I have had about a dozen for over 2 years but after I moved them to my planted 125 gal as the first fish I have only seen a couple females come out at feeding time. Last time I saw any was 3 weeks ago but I know I still have about 12.
A 20 Long is a better sized tank for a group.
They are usually pretty fragile when you first get them so it is helpful to feed mostly small live foods at first and then introduce some other foods later. They are not very expensive so I recommend that you buy 20-25% more than you desire to allow for initial losses or to be able to end up with a better sex ratio.
Males tend to outnumber females because males kill so many females during the time they are still in the distribution period. Having extra fish will give you a better chance to set up a group of balanced sexes. Excess males can be used as peaceful community fish. They are best kept in species tanks or with a few dwarf catfish like dwarf Corys or Aspidoras pauciradiatus.
Most everything about keeping and breeding P. weitzmani are challenging however, well acclimated specimens are long lived.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by the distribution period? Why do the males tend to kill the females?

I think "Distribution period" is when they are being traded (importers, wholesalers, shops, etc) before they reach the aquarium where they are eventually "kept".

--
Mats

I tend to like the color of the tank water darker because the water the fish came from is dark. I will hang a tea bag in the filter to stain the water to the shade I like and don't have the mess of leaves.
works for me

The distribution period is the time from capture and as they make their way through different distributors to dealers then ultimately your tank.
Males are aggressive towards females and the stress this causes leads to many females not making it so by the time we buy them males out number the females.

They do like tannin stained water. A tea bag, peat, black water supplement or Cattapa leaves all work to help make the aquarium water more similar to their native black waters.