PlanetCatfish.com

Hi All,

Don't know if this is the right forum.

So we are finally moving into our new home. Just tested the raw water from an ~100 foot deep well - mid-Hawthorn aquifer. Our house is ~10 miles from the Gulf of Mexico shore.

(1) TDS shows 1250 ppm - low end of brackish. ~500 ppm out of 1250 are CaCl2 and MgCl2. <0.1 ppm iron (ferrous). 3-5 ppm sulfides (yeah, interesting smell).

100% raw water:
- feeder guppies and goldfish can handle;
- Horabagrus brachysoma (sun catfish) can handle;
- channel cats appear uncomfortable;
- Pimelodus pictus canNOT handle

50% raw (1250 ppm) and 50% half-RO-ed (390 ppm) water: all of the above appear ok (short term)

So conclusion one: must RO.

(2) The disturbing thing is my API drop test reads 0.5 ppm NH3/NH4+

Can it be in part real ammonia? NH3? I am thinking it is not but it is rather some ammonium salt, like NH4Cl or NH4NO3 (fertilizer).

Say for the argument sake it is all due to some ammonium salt, e.g., NH4Cl, ammonium chloride. It cannot be as bad as ammonium produced by the presence of ammonia in the water because

NH4+OH- <-> NH3 + H2O equilibrium is shifted to the right far, far more so than the
NH4+Cl- <-> NH3 + HCl equilibrium reaction.

In other words, OH- is like a six orders of magnitude stronger base than Cl- and HCl is also six orders of magnitude stronger acid than water.

Now, what I am saying is that 0.5 ppm of ammonia in the water is almost all present in the harmful NH3 state and little in the less harmful NH4+ state. 0.5 ppm of NH4Cl is almost exclusively present in the less harmful NH4+ state and there is almost nothing present in the NH3 state.

Anyway, please let your thoughts become known if you can help straighten up and augment my thinking. How much less harmful is NH4+ than NH3?

The reason for mulling this over is that using exclusively RO water for my water-hungry purposes is expensive, so I am thinking of whether I could get away with using 50% RO and 50% raw well (an alternative/supplemental way is collecting rain water).

Why do you say that using RO will be excessively expensive? You have your own well, so no real problem with water consumption [assuming the well doesn't run dry, of course]. RO membranes last a long time, and carbon block filters shouldn't be that expesnive either...

RO should remove all "nasties" down to a level of about 125 ppm or lower.

--
Mats

@ NH3 or NH4+:

The equilibrium is depnedant of the pH. If you don'tmeasure pH, you don't have any clue about what it is

However, the amount measured is high. I would not want to use this water for any tank - unless it was treated before. A fishless tank, well cycled, will remouve the NH3/4 in a few day, and then the water is usable - if you would want to use it

However, as Matts stated,the water is free, you only need a pump to provide the required pressure for the water on the RO membrane.

I fail to see any problem

Thanks, gents.

Yeah, I forgot to mention pH. It is 7.2-7.4 by two independent, different measures.

The RO system I am pondering right now is $4000-$5000 and produces only 2350 gal per day (when new, as the membrane ages, the output will keep decreasing!). The price scales exponentially with output. ~5,000 gal a day system uses more membranes and costs ~$15,000.

I am going to need eventually a higher output than that.

The idea for my public aquarium right now is to not do any water return. It's an open, flow-through system, just like all the fish farms are set up in the south (that use unnatural bodies of water). The well water is 72-74 F year round.

When I have, eventually, e.g., 300,000 gal of tanks, I will need to pump enough water through them to turn it over 100% in a week or so, right? 300,000 gal a week is 43,000 gal a day.

Also, when such volumes are pumped out of the well, I think (from the experience of fish farmers) I will have to (and/or I will be made to) pump it back into the ground (after treatment - settlement tank usually suffices), despite the aquifer being enormous and the absence of danger of significant depletion of the aquifer.

Plus electricity is far from free.

You see my dilemma?

I am thinking of building a rain water reservoir too but that may need to be prohibitively large, like a few million gal, and also expensive.

There is indeed a large initial cost for RO systems. You may want to find out if some manufacturer is willing to sponsor you...

Aside from storing rainwater, I don't really see any other option tho'. Of course, a few thousand dollars will give you quite a bit of pond-digging for rainwater storage.

--
Mats

Water table is ~2-4 feet below the ground in Nov-Jun (10" of rain) and above (!) the ground in Jul-Oct (60" of rain). You know, it is pretty much part of the Everglades. Only elevated parts stay un-submerged.

One of the well guys who gave me an estimate mentioned the existence of equipment producing "half-RO" water at approx. 10 times the rate. Anyone knows anything about that?

Viktor,
I am in Fort Myers, FL and on well water too. My water is at 950 ppm of disolved solids and of that 800 ppm is salt. Also the water hardness is over the limit of my test kit which goes up to 450. My well is 220 ft deep and I can't remember the name of the aquifer it is in. I keep several pleco and cory species as well as irridescent sharks and I used to have a cuban shark. My water gets airated and sent to a holding tank (no RO system) and all my fish have been fine with that.

I priced out a whole house RO system and they start at about $8000 and go up from there. I thought it to be a little expensive so I added an 8 gallon RO at the kitchen for daily use instead.

There is also an importer in Buckingham that has about 200 tanks and I think he just tapped into the stream next to his facility. Not sure about his water conditions but I can't immagine they are much better.

Hi Joe, looks like we will be neighbors! Thanks for the input. I wonder what that importer keeps in his tanks. Would it be a 1 min thing for you to dig up their name/number? Buckingham is farther east from the Gulf so maybe their water is less salty.

Your water may differ from mine too - 40 miles is a long distance but it'd be very nice to compare more and keep in touch - I'll try to get a hold of you when I am in Naples, is that ok?

Does your raw water read any NH3/NH4?

Yeah, the well water need to be aerated as it is low oxygen, I am told by others in Naples too. Is that why you are aerating it? People also aerate water to get rid of sulfur smell. Is that why you do it? That thing resembles a trickle filter.

Is there a more than the obvious reason for the holding tank? Meaning, are you letting something precipitate, settle, or react/get consumed?

What's a cuban shark?

Best,

Viktor

Viktor,
Feel free to call on me at any time. I'd be happy to help in any way I can and comparing notes is an excellent idea. NO2, NO3, NH3 are at zero direct from the well,Alkalinity is about 100, pH is low around 6.6-6.8 and I don't have a test kit for NH4 but with all others at zero I would assume the same. I'm amazed that the water is so void of any readings but I just bought new kits in January and the readings are still the same.

I aerate to reduce the sulfer smell which is the reason for the holding tank. Another thing you have to watch is "sulfer bacteria" which is natural to the water and will grow in holding tanks, toilets and anything else that stays wet. From what I know it has no effect on people or fish, and I don't have any reason to believe it is effecting my aquarium. It's just a white slime that grows on wet surfaces and can be washed off with a sponge. They say if you chlorinate the water as it comes out of the well it kills the sulfer, but then you have to dechlorinate to use it in your tanks (a lot of work for nothing).

Send me an e-mail and I will get you the details for the importer as well as my phone number. I don't want to post a persons info on the internet.
Regards,
Joe

Thank you much, Joe.

So we are drawing water from different aquifers - it must be, because my pH is 7.2-7.4. My API droplet test cannot distinguish between NH3 and NH4, and, as I wrote above, I suspect my NH3 is also at zero and what it is reading is all NH4 (0.5 ppm), but I have not proved it or disproved it yet. NO2 and NO3 are at zero also, like yours.

Thanks for the heads-up on bacteria. Is it really white or did you mean to say clear/colorless slime?

Instead of chlorinating I was thinking to use hydrogen peroxide H2O2, if I had to. One could determine the approx. concentration of sulfides (like I know mine are 3-5 ppm) and then meter-drop H2O2 into the holding tank at the approx. right stochiometric amount but maybe just slightly under the stochiometric amount, to err on the safe side. H2O2 is quite an unstable chemical and even if some lingers after instantaneously reacting all the sulfides (oxidizing them into relatively harmless sulfate salts) it will quickly decompose into oxygen gas and water in your tank and pipe lines before having a chance to reach your home and fish tanks. Metals, esp. iron, catalyze its decomposition greatly. It is cheap and one will need very little of it. It is usually sold at places like walmarts and dollar stores at $1 for 1-2 quart bottles, 3% medicinal use solution.

The bacteria is white/ offwhite and resembles the green string algae that you get in ponds. If you touch it it breaks up into a cloud so there is no way to strain it out. Peroxide does work but most people wouldn't know how to use it properly (myself included). Once a year I flush the lines in the house by mixing 1 part peroxide to 5 parts distilled water and drawing it through to all the faucets. As you stated it will bubble off and it does a great job of keeping the lines free of bacteria growth. If you decide to do the same be sure to remove the screens from your faucets for about a week because small particles of calcified minerals will break off from the lines and clog the screens.

Is this bacteria like any algae needing warmth, nutrients (sulfur compounds in this case), and light to grow? Or does it grow in the absence of light too?

I have found it in both toilet tanks in my house which obviously get no natural light. I would assume the toilet tanks are void of any light but if they do get light it's only a few minutes a day and only what light gets through any gaps in the tank lid. The holding tank outside gets it much quicker and I assume that is because it is at anbient temperature and also getting sunlight penetration.

Is this bacteria like any algae needing warmth, nutrients (sulfur compounds in this case), and light to grow? Or does it grow in the absence of light too?

I know in the local hot springs this sort of thing exists out in the open daylight but I am quite sure it does not need the light, it is more in need of the chemicals and minerals present.

Birger

My sister had the same issues you did, but in Cape Coral. Impossible to keep the bathroom looking the way you'd like. Lime stains everywhere. But, I've caught adult and juvenile Channel cats using rod and reel in the brackish canal in the backyard.
Amanda

Thanx, Amanda. Cape Coral is around the corner. If the water, you caught your channel cats in, is as brackish as mine...

... then what I interpreted as discomfort (kind of restless swimming around instead of hiding right away) from testing my raw well water with channel catfishes might have been due to something else.

In any case, good to know. Next time you are here, please let me know and I can stop by, meet you, and take the TDS from that canal, or if your sister owns a TDS meter (far shot ), then such info would be helpful to me.

Hey Viktor good to see you made it to florida .
Florida water is kinda funky.I have experianced three differant waters in three wells all with in 20 ft of each other in Dade county some years ago I put down well for a swimming pool.The frist was aprox 20ft water was good but we thought we gould do better so we sank the next well to 60 ft and got salty water, the last hole went to 110ft the water tasted great but had so much iron in it we could not use it in the pool.We used the frist well with a sand filter and were very happy with the results.
You may want to try a shallower well.
enjoy. C.R.K.

Hey Viktor,
Glad you made it and feel free to call on me if you need any local info. Also I'm looking at the GE MERLIN R/O to add to my water system. It costs under $1K and does 700 gallons a day (some people claim 1200 gallons).

Hey Viktor have you looked into permitting for drawing large amounts of water in florida? Those guy in talahassee get kinda picky even when we arn't in a drought.

http://www.airwaterice.com has a TDS meter for only $23 but this water proof model is nicer but is $59.99.
http://www.airwaterice.com/product/HMCO ... METER.html
I have been using mine for 5 years. Sometimes it is on sale for $50.

Looking at the website above, I have the $22.22 version of TDS meter, and it works absolutely fine. Of course,don't drop it into the tank, or leave it where it will get wet...

--
Mats

@CRK: thanks. yeah, water here is also highly dependent on the well depth. i'm told the deeper, the saltier. i discovered another well on my property but its water has 0.3 or 3 ppm (need to check my records) of ferrous iron and a tds of 1100 ppm (vs 1400 ppm for the 1st well; different tds meter) and makes everything look brown

interestingly, the well water is approx constant throughout the year despite clear dry and wet seasons

yeah, i will need multiple permits, likely including one for pumping much well water

@GE Merlin RO system: my water guy/ro system installer says it is no good - he just trashed 12 units after realizing that he cannot install them in good faith; took a big loss

@tds meter: thnks guys. I bought mine from petsolutions.com - in-line, two point of measure, $45. will test soon. i was told these are not robust. Myron L Co. analog tds meters are approx 10 times longer lived but run ~$250.