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A friend of mine recently bought some Corydoras that were labelled as 'Schulzei (black) wild caught in Venezuela

I know the 'venezuelan blacks are actually much different to the Schultzei line bred European ones.

These don't look like my Schultzei blacks though. These look a lot browner on top and orangier in the fins on the video where mine have only a slight difference in their finnage colour. they appear in the video after 12 seconds:



PICTURES:


Can you help us identify them?

AC

[Mod edit: Clean up Youtube link and use Youtube tags --Mats]

I'm not sure at all, but I'm thinking they look quite like .

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Mats

I think Mats is on the right track.

Nah, these are the llanos black cory I think - ask Shane as I could be wrong. Nowhere near as high backed as but then there are two forms of that species. As to designation, it's closest to C. venezuelanus but isn't if we accept that that isn't C. aeneus. Best place for it would be a CW number if it starts to become imported.

Jools

C.melanotaenia in my opinion.

Kampfer wrote:C.melanotaenia in my opinion.

I'd suggest not as the fins should be yellow in this species and it is also more elongate and less high in the back.

Jools

There is one thing in my opinion that is adding a little smoke screen to what we are looking at, this is the dark substrate. Being almost black the fish are effectively maximising their pigment giving them a much darker appearance than they would have over their normal natural substrate. I may be wrong, but I would go along with Jools and say that they are the darker larger form of what we call C. venezuelanus.

A couple of images after being settled over a lighter substrate would be good and if Shane confirms them as being what he knows as the dark form from the Llanos I will look at giving them a CW number.

Ian

My friend has gnow sent me this picture which he says is of one of the parents:



The babies aremuch darker than this parent but as you see above they have a high amount of orange appearance to them.

Frank. Just on the point above, I don't want to disagree with the statement on substrate but I use an almost white sand in my tank yet my Schultzei blacks are as dark as dark can be This is counter to what I saw with Pitbull Pl***s which put their 'desert camo gear' on when on light sand and their 'green camo gear' on when in the shadows or dark substrate

These are mine which I was comparing my friends to when saying 'they don't look like mine'. lol:


So far I am assuming that my friends (from their parent picture) are 'Peru Orange Stripe' that have interbred with something else to gain the darker colouration seen in the examples above. They are in the same tank as some Albino Aenus apparently.

Strange how the babies are coming out much much darker than the parents.

AC

Supercoley1 wrote:My friend has gnow sent me this picture which he says is of one of the parents:



AC

That's a 'gold lazer' isn't it?

Double Post

Supercoley1 wrote:My friend has gnow sent me this picture which he says is of one of the parents:

So, first of all, are the fish you show in the first post in this thread captive bred fishes? I thought you said they were wild caught?

Are you saying that's the actual individual parent fish (and your friend works for that fish place) or your friend reckons the parent looks like the fish sent?

Jools

Your fish look like the line-bred black corys. Your friends are dark shultzei/aeneus. I know somebody who bought some of those and they lightened up considerably when kept over a light substrate. Just as Ian said.

Sorry. I may be confusing things above

From what I gather the parents (orange stripe above) were the fish my friend bought.

The eggs are being fertilised mainly by an Aeneus albino.

The darker fish with orange finnage and brown back are fry borne from the Orange Stripe fish (but maybe fertilised by the albino)

So the fish he was sold as wild caught was the orange striped one.

AC

The eggs are being fertilised mainly by an Aeneus albino.

So they're hybrids?

So, why ask us for ID if you know what they are? Are you aware deliberate hybridisation is seen as a bad thing to do (at least on this forum)?

Jools

Jools wrote:So, why ask us for ID if you know what they are? Are you aware deliberate hybridisation is seen as a bad thing to do (at least on this forum)?

Jools

Hi, don't give supercoley a hard time, he did't know that they were hybrids when he created the thread.

I got the stripy ones on the shop, they look like CW14, the shop assistant told me they were wild caught in Venezuela, and came mixed with some C. Aeneus. As I had never seen them before I purchased 6 and placed them on my tank.

The fish after a month spawned and the fry looked very different from the parents, as per the pictures. Then I posted the pics on a ASW forum, and supercoley posted them here looking for an identification.

The parents spawned again this week and I saw the C. Aeneus albino fertilizing the eggs. I didn't know that the fry were hybrids, and I was not aware that the corydoras would mix between themselves, never occurred to me, so the hybridisation is was not deliberate.

How was I supposed to know that the C. Aeneus mixed with the CW14?

I normally keep plants, the cory's for me are just cute fish, not an expert like some of you on what specific species, or why hybridization is bad, etc, etc.

Now, ethically, what would you do with the fish, the offspring?

Fair enough, you didn't know.

Generally, within species groups you can get hybrids if they are kept together. Both you species falls into the aeneus-group of species. There would not have been hybridisation if you kept C. elegans together with C. acutus for instance.

If you keep them to yourself and just keep them "for fun", then no harm is done. Personally I would cull them though.
But please, do not ever spread them in the hobby (other hobbyists, shops etc.) as there is enough species to deal with and tell apart. We don't need hybrids to make things more complicated.

Thanks Kim m.

I got about 30 of the fry and more coming, as the tank was full of eggs, of the 6 the cw14 lookalikes, 5 are females.

Culling is not an option for me, the hobby is great, and keeping the species pure fantastic, but to kill healthy fish just because they are hybrids? Not for me.

Will give the albino away, that will stop the mix.

As long as they don't get distributed, I don't think anyone here is bothered what you do with them. Culling them is the option you sort of HAVE to take if you get so many that you can't deal with them - and bear in mind that if you have thirty, you most likely have both males and females, so you probably will get second generation hybrid fry - these may look the same or different. These must also not be distributed. Keeping males and females separate would help!

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Mats

No hard time was being given, I apologise if my questions were too direct. The timeline wasn't given and now it makes sense. You've got to admit it was a little confusing! I also found it odd that the parent was being shown, but that picture is hosted by an American retailer...

As with many genera, most Corys will hybridise, it doesn't really tell us much. In fact, this case in point is an interesting one as the species are close and not helped by incorrect advice from the fish store. These did not come from Venezuela, rather Peru or possibly Colombia.

Also not helped by the fact the hybrids look really, really similar to a likely undescribed species of Cory I collected in Venezuela.

In answer to your question about ethics (and it's a really good question) and given that the hybrid has been created by accident, in my view the ethical thing to do is to keep them alive and happy but never sell them. However, now that we know that this cross produces a pretty fish, there is a worry that someone will attempt to make money from this knowledge.

Jools

Thanks,

I will remove all the eggs I see on the tank, will get some tiger barbs, no fry will survive here with them around.

I am sorry if the explanation was confusing.

On the video below the parents look like schultzei, but you see the coloration of the offspring is slightly different.

One of the parents:


The fry:


Parent and fry:




Gave 10 away already, 5 to each of my brothers, they have dwarf cichlids on their tanks, almost impossible for thse cory's to breed there.

They indeed very pretty fish, will see how they grow up and hopefully they are infertile, so a one off.

A video of the family:


[mod edit: Jools: Fixed youtube tags]

It is amazing how much these offspring look the black llanos cory.

If you haven't done already, you might want to explain the whole story to your brothers too. I mean, while these fish might not reproduce in such an environment as they have, maybe they decide to sell them or give them back to a shop. In my view they should know why that isn't a good thing to do and they're looking after fish which should not be further handed on.

As to them being infertile, they almost certainly are fertile. I've yet to find a same family hybrid catfish that is not actually.

So, if such a pretty little fish gets back into circulation, anything could happen.

Jools

Given the fertility of other fish hybrids, I would say it's quite likely that they are indeed fertile. For example, there are "4-way hybrids" of Hypancistrus (the son of species A crossed with species B with a daughter of species C crossed with species D, making the offspring A x B crossed with C x D hybrid - I guess you could actually end up with ALL described species of Hypancistrus in one fish!). In mammals, many hybrids are infertile, but there are quite a few examples of hybrid in fish that are fertile.

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Mats

Many thanks Jools.

I have told them today and will reinforce the issue of not giving them away or selling them.

The parents, are they C. Schultzei or something else?

Many thanks for the help.

Jools wrote:It is amazing how much these offspring look the black llanos cory.

Jools

The fish looks very similar to the ones on this thread:
http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... 13&t=23706

If they end up like that now at least we know how.

The image in the last picture is what is called Corydoras aeneus "Gold shoulder" there are many populations of these collected in Western Brazi, Peru, Colombia and Venezuela. Your Albino is almost certainly Corydoras aeneus. So, you are not technically producing a hybrid just colour forms of Corydoras aeneus, until such a time when the whole "Aeneus group gets sorted out. Then many of the colour forms may be given new species names. Albinos turn up in all species and are not considered as anything more than colour forms.

I would still like to see what they look like after a week over a lighter substrate.

The Corydoras aeneus type schultzii "Black" are line bred colour forms that all emanated from Germany about 8 or 10 years ago and were then commercially produced for the hobby in the Czech republic, they remain black whatever colour the substrate. The image below is of a natural Corydoras aeneus type "schultzii"

Ian


Image courtesy Hans-Georg Evers & Corydorasworld.com

Thanks.

I will get the fish into a second tank, with some wood and clear sandy bottom.

It would be fantastic if they are not hybrids, just a different looking C. Aeneus.

Thank you,
Luis

Interesting thread, seeing as how I've been on the hunt for blacks...
The group I acquired today are definately blacks, much like the photo one of you posted half way through this thread.. As soon as I get them established, I will post some pics. they are varied in size, I will say though, that it is apparent to me that some are or seem darker than others, and that would be one reason for culling.. but in this case they are in a tank to themselves, and my purpose is to produce good quality blacks.
We have to realize too, that retailers aren't always thinking of keeping things "pure".
some are simply wanting to make a buck and if they can give a fish more provinence, to sell it, or sell it for more $$ they do...... I know it's not all of them , but once you find a good supplier, who treats you well.... you don't want to lose them...

Here is a pic of one of my new acquisitions.....
no doubt it is black... and I think this one is a girl????