Was it Flexibacter?

[anonapersona]

From Aquariaworldnet.com --

Flexibacter columnaris (Columnaris disease or Saddlepatch disease)

A) Gram-negative slender rods

B) The disease is a serous disease of young salmonids, catfish and many other fish.

C) This is a highly communicable disease. Lesions usually first appear on the caudal fin and progresses towards the head. The caudal fin and anal fins are severely eroded. As the disease progresses the skin is often involved with numerous gray-white ulcers. Gills are a common site of damage and may be the only affected area. The gill lesions are characterized by necrosis of the distal end of the gill filament which progresses basally to involve the entire filament.

D) Flexibacter columnaris infections are frequently associated with stress conditions. Predisposing factors for columnaris disease are high water temperature (25oC-32oC.), crowding, injury, and poor water quality (low oxygen).
-----

And also http://www.aquamaniacs.net/flex.html an article describes the typical progression, sounds familiar, but for saddle markings which I coun't have seen on a mostly white fish. I also never saw any mouth involvement, but I read that it takes on different appearances in different fish sometimes. And the conditions of occurance are right on the money.

OK, I think I'm convinced. And kudos to whoever it was that mentioned that, I think you were right. Too bad I'm so slow to sift through all the conflicting suggestions to find this out.

Now, things are OK, I think. The Melafix seems to have stopped or slowed this disease. But, I'm not convinced that it is cured. I read on a koi health page (http://www.urban.ne.jp/home/koistaff/sick/eindex.html) that this is at it's worst at 27 - 28 C, pH 7.5, and GH high -- which is, of course, right where my tanks are for 9 or 10 months of the year.

So, I'm thinking that I may have bought some time with the Melafix, but I doubt this is cured.

Do I now try to medicate with something that will kill the flexibacter?

The list I have assembled contains several things that I know I can't use on cories, others I've never heard of. The combo of Maracyn and Maracyn II (for associated secondary Aeromas) sounds easy to do, I have one on hand and can buy the other quickly. I also have Furaloid and Jungle's Fungus Eliminator, both of which have sodium chloride as a main ingredient. I don't know how much salt is too much salt, so that makes me hesitate. The best store in town said to use Fournace -- I guess I can drive across town to get that I dont' think the CPS (chain pet store) has that.[/b]

[Silurus]

If Flexibacter is the case, have you considered tetracycline?

[Frisckey1]

Columnaris is caused by the flexibacter bacteria and warm temps definitely stimultes growth.

Columnaris can also be noted by the outlining of scales in white, or scales that come off in patches, it often looks like a fungus, but is not a true fungus. Some refer to it as mouth fungus, because it often shows there. Unlike a true fungus, it stacks itself in columns and very rapidly mulitplies.

Here's a link to getting a sample and looking at it, if you have means or are interested:

http://www.ntlabs.co.uk/microscope_diagnosis.htm

Maracyn Two or Tetracycline are effective, but take time to work. I have treated for columnaris before and found large serial water changes to help tremendously. My mollies used to get it alot when I kept them in FW. It never represented itself twice. Keep in mind, tho...that columnaris typically does not cause bruising like the aeromonas type bacteria can.

On the aeromonas side, here's a link:

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/FA042

You may be dealing with both, 1 as a primary and the other as a secondary infection.

[STINGRAY]

Hi Oxytetracycline works very well on this condition in liquid form sprayed directly onto food. It does have its problems though so keep doing frequent water changes as your filter bac will be nuked and dont overdose. Bigger fish can be given smashed tablets with there food. Unfortunately catfish are not very easy to inject so would not reconmend this course of action.

[anonapersona]

Everybody seems happy and healthy now, I think that damaged tails are even growing back, I'm still watching. All fish are up and wagging around the tank. I did another 20% water change today. Shall I leave well enough alone? Or do I try to treat a bacteria that I'm not sure of with powerful medications?

I am not comfortable tying to do a scrape for a microscope, and anyhow all I have it a kid's microscope. Too bad I didn't think about that when I had fish that were dying but still alive. That might have told me something - a dying fish I might not worry about damaging. (put that in my little book for future reference!) I also found instructoins online to do an autopsy, uh, maybe I'll work up to that one!

It seems reasonable that the shipping and the water changes arriving in my tank created this great die-off, by letting a bacteria that seems to be very common get out of control. But if it was flexibacter, what did it in? The Metronidazole is more for parasites and protazoans and some places mention aeromas. The Melafix claims to be anti-bacterial, but I don't see how. I could see the oil smothering some flukes maybe but bacteria, that just doesn't make sense. Water changes are generally good, but in this case I was just making the tank water harder and of higher pH than the fish were accustomed to.

I'm just so confused, this has to make sense if I am going to be able to say I learned anything. I've killed too many fish to not have learned something!

I never saw white on the scales, but then these fish are primarily white so what do I know? I've never noticed any scale problems, even on the dead fish. The only fungus looking spots were scratches in the process of healing, white one day, healed the next. Once I thought I saw a fish cough some slime then it breathed it back in, or was it a barbel in the way? I observed lethargy, gill pumping, fin erosion and one case of pop-eye that could have been mechanical in nature. Near the end, some fish swam out of control, gill failure would have caused that.

The only bruising was on fish after death. At the time of death, and I watched a few, there was no bruising, that appeared the next morning after many hours of being dead.

Friskey1, what do you mean, "It never represented itself twice"? Can I expect these fish to have some immunity now that they have survived it? Are they carriers, therefore?

What I'm still asking, in my roundabout way, is should I treat with something as seroius as tetracyclene or maracyn (i or II?) when as of right now I see no signs of illness, even though I have not used what one would think was necessary to knock out flexibacter?

[Frisckey1]

Sorry anon...what I meant to say is that it never represented itself the same way twice. It looked different everytime I got it, but am pretty sure that's what it was. Don't know why I didn't catch that!

Anyhow, the brusing even after death indicated to me, an internal bacterial infection, likely of the Aeromonas, Pseudomonas or Vibrio persuasion. "These bacterial species are common in many apparently "healthy" aquaria as latent infection waiting to happen. happen it does when fish are in poor and/or stressed condition for some reason, which can include overcrowding, moving, rough handling, inadequate/innapropriate diet, temperature fluctuation, wrong pH or pH fluctuation, build up of dissolved organic compounds --- the list is practically endless" (from a trusted source)

As you can see, your fish could be susceptible to it since a) they new additions and likely already stressed b) you started off using an RO mix, therefore with each water change that you use less RO or distilled the PH flucutates a little..mulitiple reasons why they could have been susceptible to something already present in your tank (and in most of our tanks).

treatment if you want to treat: Furizolidone at 20mg/liltre as a continuous bath for 7 days. complete water change -- 48 hour rest period. repeat treatment. Nifurpirinol at 0.2mg/litre as per above. Oxytetracycline at 75mg per kilogram of fish (yes, you have to weigh your fish) with food. I am quoting this treatment but have never even attempted such a treatment, so its all I can offer for treatment advice - except that my personal stance is stick with water changes unless things worsen.

[anonapersona]

Sorry anon...what I meant to say is that it never represented itself the same way twice. It looked different everytime I got it, but am pretty sure that's what it was.

So, flexibacter is going to be my boogeyman under the bed? So, mysterious taht it's the first thing I think of? <sigh>

Anyhow, the brusing even after death indicated to me, an internal bacterial infection, likely of the Aeromonas, Pseudomonas or Vibrio persuasion.

OK, I didn't know that.

treatment if you want to treat: Furizolidone at 20mg/liltre as a continuous bath for 7 days. complete water change -- 48 hour rest period. repeat treatment. Nifurpirinol at 0.2mg/litre as per above. Oxytetracycline at 75mg per kilogram of fish (yes, you have to weigh your fish) with food. I am quoting this treatment but have never even attempted such a treatment, so its all I can offer for treatment advice - except that my personal stance is stick with water changes unless things worsen.

I have slowed to twice weekly water changes, 50% on regular change day and an extra 20% midweek. Still adding Melafix for the 7 days per instructions. Everybodys seems great, hard to really be certain about the tails as the fish are so busy wagging them I have a hard time determining which are which, but they are no worse and might be better. The two shortest tails are no worse, maybe better, now I can see no difference between the other 4, all look long and lush. Barbels are great on all the new fish.

I like the advice of water changes unless things get worse. Thanks.

[Frisckey1]

LOL, never thought of it like that. Flexibacter is particularly, umm, reproductive in warmer waters, so try to keep the tanks on the cooler side if you can. With 50-70% water changes weekly, it will be hard for that bacteria to flourish, as the favorable conditions it needs to multply won't be present. So don't worry too much over it.

[anonapersona]

OK, that helps. If I can assume that the better environment beat it, I can figure it isn't going to come back.

Big weekly water changes and low nitrates I can provide, but I can't get any better than room temp on this tank, and 80 is standard room temp here until maybe October.

You see, I've lost a lot of cories over the last year. Probably to this same thing.

[STINGRAY]

Have you considered a cooler fitted to your tank? If you have had a lot of probs with warm water this may help . The only down side is cost.

[anonapersona]

I'm not going to spend $300-400 to save a few $3 fish, sorry, not gonna happen. I'll give up cories first.

But, the one old cory has done fine, so it is possible to keep them in these tanks, if I can get them past the shock. The store that this one came from was a "great" store, and I suspect they were handled correctly upon receipt.

The Q tank is probably the answer, and being ready to treat with medications. I never quarantined before these last couple of purchases, the ember tetras and the cories. The tetras were a breeze, I just had to get them eating. These cories were a real education.

[Frisckey1]

You won't have a temp issue with the cories - they'll do fine in that temp. Theonly issue you'll have is keeping the bacteria at bay. Like we discussed - its rather effectely kept in check with fresh, clean water.

Its likely the bacteria was on the fish already when you purchased them and mulitplied in your tank due to the higher temps. A QT tank is definitely the way too go. In a cooler room, too if you have one. Like a basement room where the temps should stay consistently stead at ground temp. If no room available, you can open the lid and point a fan at the top of the QT tank when its occupied. The cooling effects of evap will be increased with the air flow.

Good luck!

[anonapersona]

I was just sitting here admiring the fish, those skunks are handsome! Gosh I wish I had the 9 or 12, but 6 is OK. I don't think I'll be able to manage to breed them, given the water I start with.

The two with affected tails are hard to distingush now, the tails are growng back in rapidly. All are wagging around the tank this morning, barbels and tails looking lush.

Nope, no basements here in Houston. Nothing cooler unless I crank up the AC and with the last month's bill nearing $500, I'm not too eager to rush for the thermostat.

Looking back, I might have been more careful about the first meal, and not added the old cory until they were settled in, but I do think I was right to try to take the fish straight from the shipping boxes. If I ever see a cool fish on the avaiablility lists again, I'll do it that way. Quarantine in my tank is much better than being dumped into mixed tanks at the mega pet store.