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Had a nice little litter of pups this evening from the rays .
These are crosses .
P.Henlei male (Black fish with cream coloured dots)
P.sp Mantilla (red scribbled fish)

I know there are a lot of people who hate hybrids but as long as they dont get into the wild it can be interesting

but not getting released in the wild is still not a good reason to make em....

for example, if the species in captivity get all mixed up and the wildcaughts get banned or -worse- endangered in their natural habitat; it's still a loss.

at the moment fresh water rays are already likely to be banned from export. unless I'm mistaken; Brazil already tossed them off the positive list.

there's just not a single good reason to make hybrids.
none.

Thought I would get this reaction
There are many strains of fishes that have been man made ..
I bet you have owned at least one
Please tell the truth

That is a big litter of pups is it not, isn't two usually the norm?

It is so trendy among Ray fans to mix and match, seems like hybrids are worth more than the originals.
To me it is a shame really as they are so nice as they are.

Birger

sojapat wrote:Thought I would get this reaction
There are many strains of fishes that have been man made ..
I bet you have owned at least one
Please tell the truth

We all make mistakes, that's not something to be really ashamed about. The trick is, however, to learn from one's mistakes

Yes, I used to keep red platyfish, sworttail and so on. But I grew up. Now I have wildtype X maculatus, nice and grey and wild X helleri and so on. I really like them

I agree with Sidguppie that it's a pity you produced crossbreeds - even though I know keepers of rays don't mind - or even prefer h*****s

ow, I have had hybrids on occasion, back in my Tanganyika days.
however, NONE has ever left the house.

if I suspected a certain batch of fry of not being a true species, it was doomed.

they were all destroyed (put in the freezer or in alcohol) or used as feeders.

and in my youthful days I've kept red platies and all that; but once I got into wildcaught fish and I knew what true species were and what not, none would enter MY hobby.

keeping some Singapore bred colorstrains without knowing is one thing; but having tons of experience and knowledge and deliberately mixing up species is a whole different ballgame

frankly said, I'm a bit disappointed, Neil

Hi

Congratulations Neil on the pups.

As for sid being disappointed, well I wonder, is he as disappointed as the fish in his tanks. I really doubt that fish have emotions, but the fish that he created then culled definately do not. Or potential hybrids that he will create in the future.

mongo

They're very pretty little pancakes Neil . At some point I might look to keep rays, when I have a big enough tank...
Have to say I would go for a species and I particularly like the pictures I've seen of the 'tiger' ray.
I'm curious as to why its popular for ray keepers to cross-breed. I guess you are looking for an extraordinary super-patterned fish.
Synodontis hybrids are everywhere, its getting out of hand and I don't think they are 'prettier' than species.

BTW Neil, see you next week

The reason ray hybrids are common is because they are not fussy about their partners wild hybrids occur quite frequently as all the potamotrygon are arrived from a few land locked fishes that evolved with the amazon river ....
I did not make them breed it happened .
While on the subject I do and will produce pure strain fishes which would cost 10 times more!
I think that if I can sell these at a good price it may get someone interested in rays and that is a good thing .
Here is a little thing to make you all think ?
If a Scandanavian guy has a child with a girl from Sudan , totally diferent looking people are the children bad? Its evoloution it happens ,The human race merely speeds it up .
The rays wont be going out into the wild or as any unidentified new species and have not been bred by hormones , as far as I can see no harm done.
They are after all ORNAMENTAL fish as are all our fish .
If someone likes the fish for how they look they can choose .
Stop being Raycist

If a Scandanavian guy has a child with a girl from Sudan , totally diferent looking people are the children bad?

Not the same thing by any stretch. We're all the same species.
But I would really love a time machine to see what we would look like in a few hundred years if we survive.

Hi,

If a Scandanavian guy has a child with a girl from Sudan , totally diferent looking people are the children bad?

considering this example from a different perspective, I would state that you can only give this example because until very recently, our species consisted of several populations that rarely to never "interbred".
It is (in my eyes) not a question of "good" or "bad". It is instead a question of possibility. Only our technology made it possible to have a Scandinavian guy have a child with a girl from Sudan, just as it made it possible (in the aquarium context) that we can obtain offspring of two species (variants of the same species) that would never meet by any chance in a natural context.
Therefore, besides trying to force a "good-bad" type of decision, I cannot see any justification for breeding hybrid rays.
If you just said that you did it because you could and wanted to see the outcome, that would be fine with me (though I would not do it myself).

But the type of argument above (again, in my view) tries to rise this topic on a level of decision-making that it simply does not deserve.

Cheers, Sandor

Suggested names for hybrid rays...

Potamotrygon 'axminster carpet remnant'.
Potamotrygon 'spilt me coffee'
Potamotrygon 'burnt pancake'
Oh, and Potamotrygon 'bogof'... (buy one get one free)

I called them Potamotrygon sp hentilla .
Got 6 in the end .
CU soon Mr Wrasse... I forgive you .. until you get to the till

Hey,

interesting effect however imho they look worser than henlei and sp. "Mantilla"

Day off work so today I took a jaunt up the motorway to my favourite shop in the whole world. As I walked in I heard a woman shout: "catch!" as a large lump of bogwood struck me in the chest. I had barely recovered when Adelle (Neil's wife) appeared in front of me and slapped my face - both sides - with a hybrid stingray; a greeting Neil had experienced on a fish-hunting trip to South America. With a steely glint in her eye she carefully placed it back under the counter. Apparently they've been selling like hot pancakes! It seems that wives and partners of us fishkeepers have been inspired by her innovation. No wonder Neil was nervously twitching when she offered a cup of tea. His sunglasses did little to hide the bruises. Poor chap.
Aside, the shop stock was as good and varied as ever. Two hours just flew by.
I bought several fish and also discussed with Neil some wish-list fish. He's on it.
Interesting to see 2 types of 'humbug' catfish in neighbouring tanks. Platydoras Costatus and Orinocodoras Eigenmannii. Seen this way its easy to see the differences. However Neil has been feeding with a colour enhancer more intended for the gorgeous barbs in the same tanks. So... PINK catfish... very healthy but very pink. I bought 4 and their new diet starts tomorrow...

wrasse wrote:Interesting to see 2 types of 'humbug' catfish in neighbouring tanks. Platydoras Costatus and Orinocodoras Eigenmannii. Seen this way its easy to see the differences. However Neil has been feeding with a colour enhancer more intended for the gorgeous barbs in the same tanks. So... PINK catfish... very healthy but very pink. I bought 4 and their new diet starts tomorrow...

Which ones did you get, the Orinocodoras or Platydoras?

--
Mats

I had barely recovered when Adelle (Neil's wife) appeared in front of me and slapped my face - both sides - with a hybrid stingray; a greeting Neil had experienced on a fish-hunting trip to South America. With a steely glint in her eye she carefully placed it back under the counter. Apparently they've been selling like hot pancakes! It seems that wives and partners of us fishkeepers have been inspired by her innovation. No wonder Neil was nervously twitching when she offered a cup of tea. His sunglasses did little to hide the bruises. Poor chap.

This sounds like a dangerous practice for some....maybe we should petition to get them put on the banned list...

Well, how do we now treat our friend Neil who joins those knowingly creating hybrids for sale in the trade? Is it any different from spawning longfin Ancistrus I hear you cry!?! Conceptually yes, because these are new hybrids, something is being made that wasn't there before. Will all PC members now boycott Pier Aquatics? We'll all be very happy to continue to buy Neil's quality fish I am sure. Equally, I am sure Neil knows my view on hybridisation and I don't need to post it here.

wrasse wrote:I'm curious as to why its popular for ray keepers to cross-breed. I guess you are looking for an extraordinary super-patterned fish.

The tankbuster fraternity appear to like hybrids and rays are the easiest tankbusters to breed excepting the cichlids (and we've got plenty hybrids there already). They're also high value and so also suffer from Hypancistrus syndrome and tend to attract the same type of keeper (I'll prove this to you in a few years time...). It's not ray keepers, it's the keepers of larger fishes who, typically, have a different world view than, say, the average killi guy. That world view accepts hybridisation as OK as, being the dominant species on this planet, it's all good and anyway the fish is screwed as soon as we take it from the wild. And anyway, what's the difference between a guppy and a ray?

Be careful with this thread everyone, we've got our troll watch t-shirts on.

Jools

MatsP wrote:Which ones did you get, the Orinocodoras or Platydoras?

Hi Mats, I bought 4 orinocodoras, and... a pair of large Acanthadoras spinossimus, a pair of T Exilis woodcats (should have bought more), 2 Amaralia Hypsiura and 2 male ramirezi.
a day later, they are all doing well.
It was good to 'touch base' with Neil and discuss the rays, but more importantly... the fish I'm still after.

Jools wrote:Well, how do we now treat our friend Neil who joins those knowingly creating hybrids for sale in the trade?

Hybrid rays aside, our friend Neil stocks the fish we like. That's why I'm prepared to travel there. He started this thread and therefore invites comment. But I hope OTT comment by WHOEVER will be moderated.

Yep its true people will ruin everything ,ask the Big bosses in Brazil
The fish are screwed , I do like to breed true species fish .
I knew I would get a war on here but thats half the fun
I know keeping big fishes is a taboo on here .
Unless the super breeders are going to knock down the dam walls and re introduce the fishes I dont see a future only the zoo animals of a few keen aquarists .
I will do my bit but along the way I may produce a few ORNAMENTAL fishes for the lower end of the market you never know it may get someone interested enough to become a keeper of the doomed Brazilian fish whatever type .
As for the traditional Wigan hybrid ray greeting? Was that out of the norm?
Only nice people are treated to this Mr Wrasse

sojapat wrote:I knew I would get a war on here but thats half the fun

I sit here at the side of Jacob's hospital bed while he sleeps having sent my wife and 6 week old daughter home a few hours ago. I have two laptops in hospital with me, one to work on the site for a few hours while I can and one for work which I will do in a few hours once the ward quietens down.

What I really do not need, and indeed is against the rules of this site, is people posting with the knowledge they will start a "war". Do you think I like dealing with this crap? It is a selfish waste of my time.

Warning issued for trolling, thread locked, I have better things to do tonight.

Jools