mixing panaque with hypans.

[gibbus]

I have a 50gal tank with 5 L340. Is it wise that I added a papa and melon panaque(both 4-5inches). The tank is filtered with an eheim 2217 and 2250. I also inject CO2 for some plants. will I be running in some problems with this setup?

[Richard B]

A lot depends on your aspirations for the fish - do you wanna breed the hypancistrus?

Hypancistrus require a "meatier" diet than some other plecos whereas the panaque are wood eaters. Panaque get big - ultimately too big for your tank & if you wanna breed the hyp's then the panaque may put them off - certainly it's not ideal but could be done

[2wheelsx2]

I have mixed Hypans with Panaque in my 125, but the tank is a 6 footer, so it's easier for me to put both kinds of food in at once, and I have no aspirations of breeding anything; I just enjoy the interaction. I do agree with Richard that the 50 gallon will be a bit small for the panaque, as they put out a lot of waste as they gnaw through wood and high fiber foods. I'm sure you've already started to see it.

[MatsP]

If that is an accurate representation of your tank, I would suggest that CO2 is absolutely unnecessary for the amount of plants you have. You don't need CO2 until you have a LARGE amount of plants (and very strong lighting, otherwise, light will be the limiting factor for the growth of the plants.

I'm not a great fan of CO2 in pleco tanks - it displaces oxygen in the water, and plecos have a sucker-mouth mainly to hold themselves agsinst strong current - which traditionally means lots of oxygen in the water. Of course, as soon as I write this, someone who is keeping plecos in a heavily planted tank says "I keep my plecos in a high-tech tank with CO2, and it's fine". And yes, it can be done, but I don't believe it's ideal - plecos generally live in areas that have somewhere between no plants and very few plants.

--
Mats

[2wheelsx2]

I agree with Mats. I noticed that too. With the sparse planting, you really don't need CO2. Try some Excel if you're worried about algae.

[gibbus]

thank you for your inputs. The CO2 was placed because the tank will be housing toninas. I guess I will have to rethink the tank then. Although the CO2 also lowers my ph. I will come up with a new setup and post here.

[jac]

I have 4 L204 in a 160 liter tank shared with 8 juvenile L66. Before that there was a breeding pair of L270 in the L204 tank. No problems with the hypans here But the food issue is a problem. My Panaque's will come to the meaty foods... And the Panaque's make a hell of a mess.... So it isn't ideal.

I also have a high-tech 550 liter discus aquarium with some pleco's, being 2 juvenile L66, 1 L200, 1 L191, 1 L81 and 3 Sturisoma's. No problems here with these fish in a heavy planted tank and the CO2 (note: it is filtered with an open biological filter and not a closed extern filter). But you need to be aware that the CO2 must never be used to lower your PH, this is very dangerous. If the PH level of your tap water vary's to much of your tank water you will need a huge amount of CO2 to lower this down to what you want. Than the CO2 will drive out all O2 and your fish will die! Always use -for instance- oak extract to lower the PH and then you can keep it steady by using a small dose of CO2. The CO2 will then be used as it should, just anough to help your plants get the nutricion out of the water to grow. CO2 does not make your plants grow, it helps them to do better photosynthese (sorry, don't know exactly how to spell this...).

CO2 must only be used in heavy planted tanks and by some one who knows what there doing.

[MatsP]

As Jac saysm, lowering pH with CO2 will have no beneficial effect to the fish. If your fish need lower pH, then you should lower it by some means that actually improve the conditions of the fish - for example using demineralization technology (RO system is the most common solution here). Lowering the pH with CO2 is not improving the situation for the fish - rather the other way around, it stresses the fish.

--
Mats

[sidguppy]

what is a tonina?

I found 2 things and both are unsuitable.....

the first is a wee bit on the large side



the second will definitely be appreciated by the Panaque and the Hypancistrus as an extra foodsource

[gibbus]

what is a tonina?

I found 2 things and both are unsuitable.....

the first is a wee bit on the large side



the second will definitely be appreciated by the Panaque and the Hypancistrus as an extra foodsource

i'm not sure about panaque but i dont think hypans eat plants. Tonina fluviatilis is the complete name.

[2wheelsx2]

They all eat plants to some degree. I found my L333 (F1's) eating all my Bacopa carolinia.

If you want to supplement with CO2, you can still use it, but it's not strictly necessary for your current plants. If you want to grow Tonina, it's possible with Excel, but much easier with CO2. But not guaranteed. I have a high light, CO2 injected tank that I couldn't grow Tonina belem no matter how hard I tried. I also had trouble with Limnophilia aromatica. But the L. aromatica I was able to grow very well in my Excel tank.

[dw1305]

Hi all,
Additional CO2 is largely irrelevant to the growth of Tonina, or Syngonanthus sp.“Belém”, what they require is very soft, acid water. Unless you can supply this they won't grow. I like the "Tomato and Orchid" analogy, hydroponic Tomato plants will grow more quicky and produce more fruit as a lnear response to nutrients - PAR, NPK, micro-nutrients and CO2. If you then apply the same approach to growing Epiphytic Orchids, this approach will be toxic at a level which is an order of magnitude lower than is optimal for the Tomato, and they will show relatively little increase in growth at elevated CO2 levels. In this analogy species from the Eriocaulaceae, like Tonina are "orchids".

Personally I wouldn't recommend using additional CO2 for any fish with a high oxygen demand, amongst other reasons due to the Bohr effect.

Here is a bit more on the Bohr effect (and the processes effecting aeration in the aquarium) http://plecoplanet.com/?page_id=829 with apologies fo the cross-post to another site.

cheers Darrel

[2wheelsx2]

Hi all,
Additional CO2 is largely irrelevant to the growth of Tonina, or Syngonanthus sp.“Belém”, what they require is very soft, acid water.

I won't discuss the other points, but the soft acidic water is also not a success formula. We have GH/KH of 1 - 2 here and since I inject CO2 (no plecos in that tank at the time), the pH was 6.0. All the Tonina melted. So it's a bit more complex than just soft acid water.

[dw1305]

Hi all,

I won't discuss the other points, but the soft acidic water is also not a success formula.

Probably should have made my point a bit clearer, for Tonina fluviatilis & Syngonanthus sp.“Belém” (and other species in the Eriocaulaceae) soft water, acid water with a low dKH are a pre-requisite for growth, if you don't have them you have no chance of success, and even if you do have these conditions they are still difficult plants to grow. Christel Kasselmans' Aquatium plants 3rd Edition DATZ 2010 gives some growing parameters for it, and she says it is both a difficult plant and has a high light demand.

I haven't grown it, but I would anticipate that it will grow more successfully with CO2, bright light and fertiliser addition, but only if the fundamental requirements for warm, soft, acid water are met.

cheers Darrel

[MatsP]

Hi all,

I won't discuss the other points, but the soft acidic water is also not a success formula.

Probably should have made my point a bit clearer, for Tonina fluviatilis & Syngonanthus sp.“Belém” (and other species in the Eriocaulaceae) soft water, acid water with a low dKH are a pre-requisite for growth, if you don't have them you have no chance of success, and even if you do have these conditions they are still difficult plants to grow. Christel Kasselmans' Aquatium plants 3rd Edition DATZ 2010 gives some growing parameters for it, and she says it is both a difficult plant and has a high light demand.

I haven't grown it, but I would anticipate that it will grow more successfully with CO2, bright light and fertiliser addition, but only if the fundamental requirements for warm, soft, acid water are met.

cheers Darrel

I would like to offer the following addition to this: These plants do not grow in the areas normally inhabited by the plecos we often get from the same region. The fish live in high-flow areas of the river, where the plants [as a rule] live in slow-flowing areas (relatively speaking, at least).

--
Mats

[2wheelsx2]

Thanks guys. Yeah, that's why I gave up on it once I got the plecos in there. I think my problem was insufficient nitrate if you believe it. I'd been away on a business trip and wife doesn't like to dose the tanks, only feed the fish. Anyway, that's not the point of this thread, so I'll stop here. But my new tank is going to be a better biotope for the plecos (but not panaque, just

Peckoltia compta

and a few Hypans) with just a few Anubias and maybe a sword or two, with mostly wood and rocks with pool filter sand. It'll also keep it lower maintenance.

[mod edit: Jools: fixed clog tag]