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So I got tipped last weekend that an LFS in Belgium had differently looking Tatia intermedia.
Adults, yet with still clearly visible spots all over their body, which makes them quite different from mine wrt looks. Interesting! They should resemble the Tatia intermedia from Brazil, the same that were offered by Pier a few months ago.
I called the owner last Tuesday and he said he had 15 specimens in stock; they have been at his place since February this year. I told him I would come over this weekend to pick a pair.
Today a friend and I went there. It’s about 60 kms, it was pretty hot (35 C) but that didn’t bother me for I was looking forward to seeing the Tatias myself and most likely obtaining a pair.
They were indeed differently patterned, so I decided to buy a pair. Problem was that there also were paler specimens among the 15, which I didn’t want. A shop assistant caught a nice female I picked quite quickly. The search for a male took somewhat longer.
The owner passed by, looked, said nothing and disappeared. I told the assistant it would be better to get rid of the glass covers and get the wood out. He wasn’t very keen wrt the wood, but at least the glass covers were removed. The wood was still lifted by hand and then put down again. The owner came again, said it would be better if the wood got out as well and disappeared. I noticed that one specimen was tumbling around (it did so from the beginning).
And so the search for a nice male went on (he caught another nice specimen, which was a female as well so he had to put it back), until the owner came round for the third time, noticed the tumbling specimen, muttered something about having no respect for nature and told the assistant he just had to catch any specimen and put that in the bag.
As he was clearly not addressing me, I asked him what the problem was. He literally said I had no respect for nature for I disregarded two(?) completely stressed specimens, I was ruining his shop and I had to take the first specimen that the assistant would catch, regardless which gender…….
I then told him that if he felt like that, I would immediately leave. And so I did.
60 k’s back, still hot, no fishes. The friend, who’s already accompanied me to countless shops, said it was one of the most bizarre experiences he’d ever witnessed. I felt the same.
But if I am not allowed to pick a pair, I’d rather return empty handed. Also I don’t like being called disrespectful to nature. I do have my pride.

I just wanted to get this off my chest.
Don’t ask me for the name of the shop; I won’t tell as it doesn’t really matter.
What does matter is that I won’t go there anymore.

Sounds like a bad experience.

--
Mats

wow! bizarre! what a bi polar SOB.

you did the right thing. weird.

?

That's completely strange. I think buying a pair kind of goes -with- nature because what we learn about breeding fish is good so what exactly did he mean? I would have been temped to give him an earful but you took the highroad.

Perhaps better training of staff might be an idea. At my LFS, there are usually two there when it's a tricky or delicate fish or there's so many that an acrylic plate held by the second person helps to slow down the darting fish and isolate a smaller number.

And this is yet another example why the "little guys" go out of business. For every good independent store there is one with an owner with attitude (and often little in the way of business acumen). And often it is they who complain the most about the big chain stores put them out of business (when they actually are doing it to themselves and have only lasted this long due to no competition).

It is a sad story.

Jools

If it was not for the A-#^*! in this world we would have nothing to compare the really nice folks too.

crkinney wrote:If it was not for the A-#^*! in this world we would have nothing to compare the really nice folks too.

True. Unfortunately, you have to experience both to be able to tell which is which... ;)

I got told off for putting my hand in the tank in my LFS today - only jokingly, though... Not something I would do in a shop where I'm not well-known to the staff, of course.

--
Mats

people in shops take offence when you wet your hands? Incredible

I almost always touch het water, or rearrange something temporarily to see some fish or another

Bas Pels wrote:people in shops take offence when you wet your hands? Incredible

If you ask "can I move the <object hiding fish> in this tank", they are usually OK [I've never had a "no, you can't" answer, but you do get a "let me help you do that" sort of reply sometimes]. But just walking up to a tank and starting to move stuff around isn't considered the done thing around here.

I almost always touch het water, or rearrange something temporarily to see some fish or another

Obviously the more relaxed attitude in the Netherlands... Or you are a more confident person that gets away with things like this... Or both, of course...

--
Mats

These days I'm always allowed to catch my own fish. I think it is so I don't take up the time of an employee by saying "No, not that one

I remember early in my hobby being scolded and told there might be gas on my hands from my steering wheel.
(He didn't know I had already washed my hands.)

I am always moving driftwood or deco to scope out the fish in the tanks also.

I only get a raised eyebrow from new employees.

MatsP wrote:

I almost always touch het water, or rearrange something temporarily to see some fish or another

Obviously the more relaxed attitude in the Netherlands... Or you are a more confident person that gets away with things like this... Or both, of course...

--
Mats

perhaps a bit of both, but I also don't expect to find anything interesting in the nicely decorated shops - taught by experience - and i think those are the shops where people don't like this behaviour

crkinney wrote:If it was not for the A-#^*! in this world we would have nothing to compare the really nice folks too.

Maybe, but I think Marcs point was just wanting to talk about this and not looking for condemnation of the guy. The clue's in the post title. Weird, not bad.

Jools

Bas Pels wrote:people in shops take offence when you wet your hands? Incredible

Again it depends, but cetainly if you ask, they should at least show you what they have for sale. Then, however, it doesn't help if, upon seeing the fish, you tell the store owner the ID is wrong. It is not often they really care about the ID as if it is correct then many customers will then not know what the fish is and if they don't understand the label, they won't buy the fish as it's under a rock.

I know I've (especially when younger and when I had not seen all the fishes I have now) pestered retailers to see every fish under a stone in every tank! But then I did buy. That's why, nowadays, I like going to stores where I know the owner, and they will let me rummage around and catch my own fish. Sometimes they even know what I will buy and take me straight to it!

I know of a retailer in Scotland who in recent times had white spirit poured in his (centrally filtered) tanks by some unhappy customer. Clearly to attack someones business by killing animals is cowardly in the extreme, it never fails to amaze me also what things the public will do. I guess running a shop for a long time can change you for the worse and that is when the business will suffer and lose ground to a chain store.

Jools

Sounds bad, Marc. This guy is taking out his problems with his own shop on the customers and his own employees. Bad way to do business. As for respect for nature, I don't understand that at all. These fish left nature a while ago. They are in captivity. I think he has his terms mixed up. I always have them pick up the tank decor. That's where the good stuff hides. The good, smaller LFS's around here allow you to linger, no matter how busy they are. You wind up being free help.
Amanda

That was weird, Marc. I've had my fair share of weird run-ins with LFS owners who I didn't know. One in particular was when I was buying some sort of L-number years ago when the golden nugget and sunshine plecos were just starting to get popular around here. I asked the owner if I could pick out the one I wanted and if I could examine it before I bought it. There was no one else in the shop so he watched me. No problem. I caught the pleco with a net and then examined it's abdomen to make sure it wasn't sunken in before giving it to him to bag.

The next day, the pleco died. I returned to the shop with the corpse--they had a 2 day live gurantee policy--store credit if the fish dies within 2 days. The owner told me he was shocked by the way I handled the fish and that he didn't want to give me store credit. I told him I did nothing that added to the stress of the fish being caught. As I explained before I bought the fish, I wanted to examine it. It made me wonder if he even knew anything about L-numbers in the first place. He eventually did give me credit which I promptly used, but I thought it was really weird that he thought I handled the fish roughly.

Jools has a point regarding why LFS owners are sensitive to people going in their tanks without permission. Someone can dump some nasty solution in the tank(s) and kill everything. Also, when I used to work at a few LFS's, there were people (usually kids) who would try to steal fish by keeping a cup in their pocket. It was amazing how fast my old boss could run to the front door and lock it when we thought we had a thief on our hands.

At the LFS I used to work for we actually had people dump pop into some of the fish tanks. From that point on customers were not allowed to bring drinks into the building anymore. We even had people somehow steal fish out of fish tanks. I never let a customer I was not familiar with go into the tanks. I figured if I hadn't seen them by now that they couldn't had been too big of a fish geek. Although someone wanting to sex them is usually a sign of a fish geek but could be a newb. I would catch anyfish a customer asked for except on feeders, if they wanted to pick out every one of their 2 dozen feeders then here is the net I would tell them.

There were also times when the fish store was packed and you were the only one there. I would ask them to wait or comeback in a half hour when I got the rush out the door. I've given customers nature talks for throwing fish into ponds and rivers. I have also tried catching fish for customers that took forever and I did feel bad for the fish but sometimes that is how it goes. I suppose if it wasn't me doing it but I was watching it I might perceive it differently.

on the one hand: I would like to see these fishes, can't be that far from here. On the other hand: doesn't sound like a shop were I want to spend my money.

I don't even know if I want to know where it is.

I can add on this weird story since it was me that tipped to Marc about the Tatia's, because i went there 1 week earlier.....

in the first weekend of july, there's every year a very nice fish/plant/assorti/reptile fair near that LFS that we (me and Marc) usually visit.
ditto this year, but Mrc still had a lot of work to do for his job.
I didn't, so I got myself some floating pond plants and a group of captive-bred Pachypanchax spp wich are nice addons for my Madagascar fish collection.

because of the heat i decided to go early and that gave me some time in the afternoon to check out the store.
and I kept my eyes open, because Marc had joked to me about spotting Tatia's (!) on the fair.

no Tatia's on the Fair, but a single view in the LFS I spotted a group of uite large white spotted Tatia's. I didn't dare to gamble of buying some fish that he's already got; all those black and white Tatia's can be confusing when one's 'catfish radar' is tuned on stricty African

I remembered that some species are spotted all over when young, but turn black or grey when mature, retaining the spotted fins.
these were spotted all over, but at the same time they were 4-5" TL and quite fat wich is fairly big for Tatia's, i think.

there was also only one piece of wood in that tank, a chewed-up Liosomadoras oncinus without a dorsal fin (!), a very stressed out Crossocheilus siamensis and
-here's the rub-
a fully grown male Hypselecara temporalis wich was chasing and snapping at all the other fish.

wich mkes this comment all the more coarse, because telling someone

He literally said I had no respect for nature for I disregarded two(?) completely stressed specimens, I was ruining his shop and I had to take the first specimen that the assistant would catch, regardless which gender…….

while setting up the poor cats with inadequate shelter and putting in such a large and agressive cichlid smacks of a lot of gall.

that guy should have taken his own "advice" to heart, instead of harassing customers.
needless to say that he permanently lost 2 customers, not 1.

sad... but all too real

to depress everyone even further, I am told of competitors coming into a LFS and killing fish and/or corals... actually one of the reasons some owners opt to section their tanks or even run each tank isolated from the rest and shy away from centralized system... it is so easy that it is almost tempting, especially to those attuned to hearing the devil and his devilish suggestive thoughts... a small piece of soap, a droplet of dish washing liquid or some lubricant, gasoline, pop, candy, etc... one day a "customer" came in and in 1 h after he left a tank with $2000-3000 worth of most fancy and beautiful corals was all gone, stone dead... other time, a $200 piece of coral just walked away... and then there are "fish fanatics" (really thieves I mean) grabbing fish with their bare hands right out of the tanks in plain view and running for the door. As for the miscommunications, misunderstandings, etc., there are countless more numbers of these and I am dead positive in many cases I caused them or at least shared responsibility for them in part... Well, that's life in the real world. We all know this happened, happens, and will happen everywhere where people are. The only places it does not happen are where there are no people, but then, there aren't too many fish shops there...

the "you ruining my shop" small tack-on by the LFS owner in Marc's story was almost funny if it was not so sad

Bijn wrote:I don't even know if I want to know where it is.

Bijn,
Although I'm sure you can figure the above out I'm not going to name the shop for a very simple reason.
The fact that things were spoilt for me doesn't necessarily mean my experience has to spoil things for you.

Marc van Arc wrote:

Bijn wrote:I don't even know if I want to know where it is.

Bijn,
Although I'm sure you can figure the above out I'm not going to name the shop for a very simple reason.
The fact that things were spoilt for me doesn't necessarily mean my experience has to spoil things for you.

Yes, I'm pretty sure where it is, not 100% although.

It's a strange situation, if you didn't started this topic I surely wouldn't go to that shop because I wouldn't know they had cool fishes. But your experience also gives me reasons to stay there away.

So you give me reasons to go and reasons to stay there away, without this topic I just wouldn't think about going to this shop.

Marc van Arc wrote:Although I'm sure you can figure the above out I'm not going to name the shop for a very simple reason. The fact that things were spoilt for me doesn't necessarily mean my experience has to spoil things for you.

Nice godly gesture! As some say, good karma for you!

Bijn wrote:

Marc van Arc wrote:

Bijn wrote:I don't even know if I want to know where it is.

Bijn,
Although I'm sure you can figure the above out I'm not going to name the shop for a very simple reason.
The fact that things were spoilt for me doesn't necessarily mean my experience has to spoil things for you.

Yes, I'm pretty sure where it is, not 100% although.
It's a strange situation, if you didn't started this topic I surely wouldn't go to that shop because I wouldn't know they had cool fishes. But your experience also gives me reasons to stay there away.
So you give me reasons to go and reasons to stay there away, without this topic I just wouldn't think about going to this shop.

The second line in my reply (bold print) says that my experience doesn't have to be yours.
If you want to go there, just go. Don't stay away on my behalf.

Marc van Arc wrote:

Bijn wrote:Yes, I'm pretty sure where it is, not 100% though

If you want to go there, just go. Don't stay away on my behalf.

Because of the above, I PM-ed Bijn the name of the shop.

thanks


Maybe I'll take a look Thursday.

especially to those attuned to hearing the devil and his devilish suggestive thoughts

man doesn't need any devil or demon or god to do some bad or disappointing deeds, he (or she) is perfectly capable of doing all the crappy stuff by himself

by suggesting that a bad attitude can somehow be caused by an imaginary external being, one only gives people a means to avoid responsibility and accountability for bad behavior.
it hints at people being pure and good and whenever the rotten stuff happens it can be blamed on a fairytale scapegoat, as long as no blame is pointed at oneself.

wake up call: people are NOT pure and good.
some are, sure, but for every nice and honest and decent person, there's a real sorry excuse walking around as well. it all levels out.

"the devil made me do it" just doesn't cut it.
everyone is perfectly responsible for one's own deeds and -for example- someone who deliberately poisons and kills a whole tank full of marine life is a very rotten apple indeed.
no demons or devils need to be blamed for that.
those were just having a drink in hell and didn't want to come near any fish.

sidguppy wrote:man doesn't need any devil or demon or god to do some bad or disappointing deeds, he (or she) is perfectly capable of doing all the crappy stuff by himself...

...by suggesting that a bad attitude can somehow be caused by an imaginary external being, one only gives people a means to avoid responsibility and accountability for bad behavior...

...everyone is perfectly responsible for one's own deeds

Sid, thank you. Good points.

bravo, Sid. (clapping)

Hey, Sidguppy, I am with you. I am not out to justify the malefactors by any means! There is not much contradiction between you and I.

I do not mean to delve into the origins of good and evil and into a theological and/or philosophical discussion here - it is sensitive and subject to deep personal beliefs. But in short, man IS responsible for his/her actions and who he/she decides to listen to, IMO, and my opinion alone in this discussion here. I am a Christian and I believe in the fallen human nature, which used to be perfect - anyone, I think, who's paid attention to his/her own thought life and their own actions, including words, and to the history of humanity and nations, would agree, at least in some way/part; and that's likely enough said for this time and place.

SG: wake up call: people are NOT pure and good.
VJ: YEP, YEP, YEP. BUT they CAN be if they dedicate their lives to it (nothing less will do).