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Hello all,

I have a question about feeding panaque. I have had a panaque (38 cm) for atleast 3 years now and have never given him shrimp etc. I always rely on wood in the tank and alge pellets (hikari) for feeding. Occasionally (once every 1-2 weeks) I feed him courgette or cucumber, but sometimes this is more often.

Yesterday I fed him a piece (10x10x10 cm) of courgette, wich he ate completely overnight. While watching him now I notice he has a sunken belly. How can he have that? He at literaly 8 hours ago. Is it processed so fast or does it mean my panaque doesn't have a reserve?

The thing is, I wonder how well he is doing. I sometimes notice he has a little bit sunken belly, but sometimes he also has a good or even big belly. I don't change much in feeding, I feed some hikari pellets every day and there's no other fish in the tank to steal it from him (tankmates: 4 Microgeophagus altispinosa and +/- 15 cardinal tetra's). There is plenty of wood for him to chew on. How can this (the size of his belly) change so much while having the same intake of foods?

Maybe the wood I have in my tank is to hard for him to really eat? It sinks right away and is as heavy as a brick. I never see poo strings with wood, like you get when you feed courgette.

One other thing is that before he used to have much more spines, but has almost completely lost them from a year ago. It doesn't seem to grow at all.

I tried to make pictures of his belly and didn't succeed. Here is a pic of him so you can see externally there's notthing wrong with him. Sorry about the horrible quality, it's made with my phone.
I wanted to know some opinions about what to do next. He's active and doesn't seem bothered by anything, so maybe I am just over reacting.

I was thinking about maybe treating against internal parasites or something, seeing as I did buy those altispinosa's and the tetra's from a lfs, but what do you think? I could also add some softer wood (have some laying around) or start feeding more heavily with courgette.

Panaque can pass their food as quickly as within 4 hours. They push food through extremely fast. Panaque are grazers and are adapted to eating constantly. Their food in the wild is generally so low quality that it would serve no point to hold a reserve.

First off, your Panaque looks fantastic, I wish mine would grow to looks like yours.

I've found with my Panaque (L027 and L190) that their belly can fluctuate from being ready to pop, to slightly concave within a fairly short period of time (12 hours or so). Like Milton said, food can pass through them very fast. A good food to see how fast they pass it through (and to see if they are eating) is to feed something like carrots or/and sweet potato. These foods leave very obvious orange poo behind, and I've seen it pass through them in about 4/5 hours.

It obviously getting enough food to survive (for the past 3 years). Perhaps the reason for it losing its spines (odontodes) is that it is exhausting the useable wood in the tank and not being able to 'support' them (although I don't know if the two are linked0. Not seeing poo sounds a little worrying to me. However, the typical poo strings are usually formed from vegetable and flake/tablet foods. Wood is usually reduce to a 'sawdust' consistency, is this plentiful in your tank?

If it were me, I would always supplement their diet with the 'harder' vegetables, currently I feed carrots, sweet potato and swede (as well as softer vegetables and fruit). Unless you have a massive amount of wood where the algae/biofilm can be replaced fast enough, I doubt it is enough to entirely sustain a large Panaque in a 'standard' aquaria.

The spines are calcium based, just like bone. If your water is soft, you should really consider adding some hardness (Mg, Ca). I dose Epsom salts and Plaster of Paris in my tanks because we have very soft water and the tanks are planted, but the plecos seem to be very happy with that and I have no problem with their odontoides or chews.

My water is 3gH and 4kH (I think thats fairly 'soft' water) and my 38cm L190 has 10cm long operculum odontodes and a good amount of pectoral ones too.

I don't actually think there is much wrong with your fish. I'd be careful feeding prawns and other meaty food, but obviously you aren't doing to too much wrong.

What size is the tank?
What is the nitrate level of the tank?
How much water do you change each week?

I'm not sure the spines are "bone" - I'd expect they are actually more like our nails/hair, birds feathers and hooves on hoofed animals, ceratin-based. But I could be wrong - Milton can probably put us right on that.

I wrote a feeding plecos article several years ago, and a more in depth "what does each genus eat" article more recently - they are linked on the right of this post. It may give you some ideas of other vegetables (and other things) to feed. Having more than one or two kinds of wood in the tank is probably not a bad idea.

--
Mats

matthewfaulkner wrote:My water is 3gH and 4kH (I think thats fairly 'soft' water) and my 38cm L190 has 10cm long operculum odontodes and a good amount of pectoral ones too.

I live in a rainwater watershed and our local water is 1 and 1 for the same measurements, so "soft" for us pretty much means no hardness. So I have to dose for GH regardless.

MatsP wrote:I'm not sure the spines are "bone" - I'd expect they are actually more like our nails/hair, birds feathers and hooves on hoofed animals, ceratin-based. But I could be wrong - Milton can probably put us right on that.

That's true, I guess I didn't think of that. I guess it's more like cartilage than bone. Hmmm...maybe the calcium makes no difference then. I was told this by a local pleco keeper. Maybe I should does Glucosamine Chondroitin instead.

Odontodes are made of the same exact material as their teeth; in fact, the name odontodes actually references teeth. They contain enamel and dentin. I do not believe their develop is tied to water softness/hardness, at least like shell development is in invertebrates. Rather, I'd guess they have more to do with breeding condition. Actually, my B. beggini male has shed his odontodes, and have hypothesized it's because the water may be too hard and he doesn't like that as much, despite being perfectly healthy otherwise.

One other thing is that before he used to have much more spines, but has almost completely lost them from a year ago. It doesn't seem to grow at all.

Rather, I'd guess they have more to do with breeding condition

I agree, not certain how it works for Panaque's but many others loose their odontodes or have minimal development if there is no competition around or no females for the males...

Birger

I agree, not certain how it works for Panaque's but many others loose their odontodes or have minimal development if there is no competition around or no females for the males...

This is how it works. Presence/absence of breeding odontodes is dependent on the conditions being correct for sexual activity. This can include temperature, water chemistry, and most importantly the presence of potential mates. Panaque (like many other loricariids) collected outside the breeding season will have shed their odontodes. Seasonal spawners will naturally shed and regrow their odontodes in captivity.
I once collected a large group of what I thought were Lasiancistrus in Venezuela. A few months later the dry season came, my tanks heated up a couple of degrees and half my Lasiancistrus grew snout tentacles! Turned out I had a group of Ancistrus that were simply sexually inactive at that time of year.
-Shane

Suckermouth wrote:Panaque can pass their food as quickly as within 4 hours. They push food through extremely fast. Panaque are grazers and are adapted to eating constantly. Their food in the wild is generally so low quality that it would serve no point to hold a reserve.

Aha, never knew that, thanks for the info.

matthewfaulkner wrote:First off, your Panaque looks fantastic, I wish mine would grow to looks like yours.

I've found with my Panaque (L027 and L190) that their belly can fluctuate from being ready to pop, to slightly concave within a fairly short period of time (12 hours or so). Like Milton said, food can pass through them very fast. A good food to see how fast they pass it through (and to see if they are eating) is to feed something like carrots or/and sweet potato. These foods leave very obvious orange poo behind, and I've seen it pass through them in about 4/5 hours.

It obviously getting enough food to survive (for the past 3 years). Perhaps the reason for it losing its spines (odontodes) is that it is exhausting the useable wood in the tank and not being able to 'support' them (although I don't know if the two are linked0. Not seeing poo sounds a little worrying to me. However, the typical poo strings are usually formed from vegetable and flake/tablet foods. Wood is usually reduce to a 'sawdust' consistency, is this plentiful in your tank?

If it were me, I would always supplement their diet with the 'harder' vegetables, currently I feed carrots, sweet potato and swede (as well as softer vegetables and fruit). Unless you have a massive amount of wood where the algae/biofilm can be replaced fast enough, I doubt it is enough to entirely sustain a large Panaque in a 'standard' aquaria.

Thanks for the compliment, I am very fortunate to have this animal. Good to hear you notice the fluctuation of the belly too. I don't see much sawdust in my tank. I have since added some softer wood pieces and have stocked some carrots to try.

2wheelsx2 wrote:The spines are calcium based, just like bone. If your water is soft, you should really consider adding some hardness (Mg, Ca). I dose Epsom salts and Plaster of Paris in my tanks because we have very soft water and the tanks are planted, but the plecos seem to be very happy with that and I have no problem with their odontoides or chews.

Thanks for thinking along!

matthewfaulkner wrote:My water is 3gH and 4kH (I think thats fairly 'soft' water) and my 38cm L190 has 10cm long operculum odontodes and a good amount of pectoral ones too.

I am jealous, that must be an awesome sight.

MatsP wrote:I don't actually think there is much wrong with your fish. I'd be careful feeding prawns and other meaty food, but obviously you aren't doing to too much wrong.

What size is the tank?
What is the nitrate level of the tank?
How much water do you change each week?

I'm not sure the spines are "bone" - I'd expect they are actually more like our nails/hair, birds feathers and hooves on hoofed animals, ceratin-based. But I could be wrong - Milton can probably put us right on that.

I wrote a feeding plecos article several years ago, and a more in depth "what does each genus eat" article more recently - they are linked on the right of this post. It may give you some ideas of other vegetables (and other things) to feed. Having more than one or two kinds of wood in the tank is probably not a bad idea.

--
Mats

The tank is 5 ft (juwel 400). I have no measurements of the water in the tank, but I do keep this panaque for a long time and know what behaviour is "normal" for him. I change about 40-60% of water every week and have been doing so for as long as I have him. My tap water is soft and is +/- 6.5 ph. The tank is unheated at the moment and is between 28-31 C. I wiill take a look at the articles, although I think I have red them before, it maybe is not a bad idea to read them again for ideas of feeding

2wheelsx2 wrote:

matthewfaulkner wrote:My water is 3gH and 4kH (I think thats fairly 'soft' water) and my 38cm L190 has 10cm long operculum odontodes and a good amount of pectoral ones too.

I live in a rainwater watershed and our local water is 1 and 1 for the same measurements, so "soft" for us pretty much means no hardness. So I have to dose for GH regardless.

MatsP wrote:I'm not sure the spines are "bone" - I'd expect they are actually more like our nails/hair, birds feathers and hooves on hoofed animals, ceratin-based. But I could be wrong - Milton can probably put us right on that.

That's true, I guess I didn't think of that. I guess it's more like cartilage than bone. Hmmm...maybe the calcium makes no difference then. I was told this by a local pl*co keeper. Maybe I should does Glucosamine Chondroitin instead.

Suckermouth wrote:Odontodes are made of the same exact material as their teeth; in fact, the name odontodes actually references teeth. They contain enamel and dentin. I do not believe their develop is tied to water softness/hardness, at least like shell development is in invertebrates. Rather, I'd guess they have more to do with breeding condition. Actually, my B. beggini male has shed his odontodes, and have hypothesized it's because the water may be too hard and he doesn't like that as much, despite being perfectly healthy otherwise.

Birger wrote:

One other thing is that before he used to have much more spines, but has almost completely lost them from a year ago. It doesn't seem to grow at all.

Rather, I'd guess they have more to do with breeding condition

I agree, not certain how it works for Panaque's but many others loose their odontodes or have minimal development if there is no competition around or no females for the males...

Birger

Shane wrote:

I agree, not certain how it works for Panaque's but many others loose their odontodes or have minimal development if there is no competition around or no females for the males...

This is how it works. Presence/absence of breeding odontodes is dependent on the conditions being correct for sexual activity. This can include temperature, water chemistry, and most importantly the presence of potential mates. Panaque (like many other loricariids) collected outside the breeding season will have shed their odontodes. Seasonal spawners will naturally shed and regrow their odontodes in captivity.
I once collected a large group of what I thought were Lasiancistrus in Venezuela. A few months later the dry season came, my tanks heated up a couple of degrees and half my Lasiancistrus grew snout tentacles! Turned out I had a group of Ancistrus that were simply sexually inactive at that time of year.
-Shane

Hmm I guess I have to do without odontodes with my panaque then. For a second big panaque the tank will be too small I think and then I have not even talked about finding a suitable female. Would adding a small panaque's help? My lfs stocks them regularly, I have to take a better look to see if there the same species as mine though. I hate chasing and agression in my tanks so I am not sure about adding one more, but I have noticed before that if there a lot smaller than him he doesn't care.

Thanks again for you help everyone! Here's an older picture of him.