Chaetostoma sp. 1

[davidkozak]

I purchased 5 fish which I believe are Chaetostoma sp. 1. They came in at adult size(a very large group) and I was able to choose what I'm pretty sure are 2 males and 3 females. This was 6-7 weeks ago. I've been keeping them in a 33 long with playsand substrate, some tubes to hide in. Filtration is an AC300 and an air driven hydrosponge. The temp is around 72 degrees. Ph is around 7ish. I've spawned things like hypancistrus, pignose puffers, wild uaru, ancistrus, loricaria, african cichlids, and SA/CA cichlids all in the same straight tap water. So I feel pretty confident about not having to mess with the water too much, or at all really.
OK-that being said-I think the females are becoming noticeably gravid. Any ideas other than ignoring them and hoping nature takes it's course?? I've read the info in the Cat-alog, and Shane's accidental spawning. Have there been other successful spawns that I've missed? Are they likely cave spawners? Or will they perhaps just choose a protected area/rock with lots of current? Should I remove one male? Anyone have any ideas they'd like to share? Regards, David

[davidkozak]

4 of the fish pictured below. I actually googled(I didn't figure it would be that easy to find an article-heh) "spawning chaetostoma species" and got an article in Australia where the guy has got several spawns, so I have a plan now. I've built several caves by carefully stacking flat pieces of rocks, and then added more sand to the tank. The sand has half buried the rock areas and they should be able to choose and excavate their own spawning site(s)

[Shane]

It sounds like you are on the right track. Good food, clean water and suitable spawning sites seem to be the three main ingredients. I have collected fry year round, so at least for most spp, there does not seem to be a season trigger.
-Shane

[davidkozak]

Update: the fish have already "excavated caves" out of the caves that I built and then covered with sand. I can see them in there but the angle is bad for a picture.
I've also added a bunch of live floating plants, and a pair of Betta brownorum(because they like the same temps and I had nowhere to put them). I don't think either species will bother each other.
I'm going to continue feeding and changing the water(alternating with periods of no water change) and see what happens.
David

[bronzefry]

The

Chaetostoma milesi

I recently purchased did the same digging bit as soon as they got into the 20 long tank. There are 5 of them with a thin layer of sand, some small rocks and 2 medium to large pieces of driftwood. The digging was so frantic at first. I tried to plan this tank out nicely, with the powerhead on one side, the hang-on-back filter on the other, etc. In the end, they just seem to rearrange things the way they want.
Amanda

[davidkozak]

Funny how fast they get thing's dug up, eh? Mine dug things out according to the plan though. Here's a picture of one of their tank mates(I have a pair of Betta brownorum in there with the 5 chaetostoma) David

[davidkozak]

Update: still nothing..hahahaha..

I shifted some fish around today and cleared out a plywood 90 gallon tank, so I decided to move these fish to that tank. It's overkill, but I figure it can't hurt.

I drained the tank down to about 4 inches of water, placed a bunch of rockwork and terracotta caves across the back wall, and buried the whole works in sand for the fish to excavate. Moved the fish into the tank and then slowly refilled with 70 degrees fresh water..
I'm going to let the tank go for the next several weeks, allowing them to settle in, and then start doing some big water changes. David

[bronzefry]

I get the feeling they do things on their own schedule. I'm not so sure about the sexes on mine. I'd wager the whole lot imported to my friend's shop were males. I love them anyway. So active, even during the day.
Amanda

[davidkozak]

I'm pretty certain I have 2 males and 3 females. They were close to full size when they came in so it was easy to see the difference in sexes. There was 50-60 of them in the store to choose from, so that also helped(having so many to look at/sort through)

They've dug out most of the areas under the rocks, and about half the caves. They seem to "like" the extra current from the powerheads I've added. David

[gaballench]

Hello David,

I'm very interested in Chaetostoma and it relatives, and the species you mention seems to be from Colombia. I plan to publish some interesting things with respect to this species, but at first I should say I don't think your males are really mature. First of all, those are of a comparable size to your true females (I could see two from your pics, and as you say, truly gravid both), and species of Chaetostoma (and actually from other ancistrine genera) do show sexual dimorphism in SL (i.e., males larger than females). You should note the hypertrophied odontodes on the midlike of the pectoral spine: if male, those must be recurved and oriented forward, if female, they are nearly entirely straight.

Hope this helps you.


Best regards,

[davidkozak]

Thanks for the information David

[racoll]

Matt (username: "Grokefish") has spawned

Chaetostoma

.

Might be worth contacting him directly, and get to to add his experiences to the thread.

Betta brownorum seem like a bizarre choice of tankmate. They are extreme stenotopic acidophiles (pH <4), living in pools in peat swamp forests.

I couldn't imagine they would thrive in a tank designed for piedmont Andean rheophiles like

Chaetostoma

, which prefer neutral/alkaline water.

How is it working out?

[andywoolloo]

beautiful pics! I have two of those. very fast fish.

[davidkozak]

When I moved them to a new tank at the end of July, I only moved the Chaetostoma. Just the five of them in the tank. David
P.s. I did a search and found a/the thread "grokefish" posted about his spawning experience.

http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... =5&t=27312

[apistomaster]

Hey Rupert,
That Betta brownorum looks pretty healthy to me but it does seem an incongruous tank mate for Chaetostoma but one thing that does make sense is that most of the small wild red Betta species in the B. coccina complex seem to like water cooler than I would have thought but low to mid 70*F suits them fine. The little wild Betta species are also very agile and may be found in swifter flowing water during the monsoons than where they are normally collected. I have learned the hard way that the B. coccina complex Bettas do not do well in warmer water I'm used to for my Discus and Plecos which is normally 84*F but at times it reaches 88*F like it has this week. Still, I would expect them not to do all that well in hard, alkaline water but I do think they can handle moderately soft water which is about neutral pH. I have bred Betta coccina and Betta rutilans from this group and Betta sp. "Mahachai, B. imbellis and B. smaragdina in moderately hard water with a pH of 7.4. Some fish don't always fit our conception of what is "correct." And I am well aware of what kind of water and places where they are normally collected.
Betta brownorum is on my "to do list". They are a jewel of a fish. I just have trouble keeping it cool enough. Same problem plagues me with a lot of Killies. I have some pairs of Simpsonichthys boitonei and Simpsonichthys zonatus. They can handle the heat better than some.

[davidkozak]

Well it only took about a year, but I finally got a spawn(or noticed one-I suspected they were spawning before now) I had to take all the rock work out of their tank to catch some fish early this morning for a friend. I picked up an upside down clay saucer with a male in it, and when I turned it over noticed he was guarding a small clutch of eggs. I placed them in a floating breeder net, and by the time I finished catching the other fish, the eggs had hatched and the wigglers had released from the clay saucer. There are only 6-10 of them.. David
p.s. sorry about the poor picture quality

[apistomaster]

The smaller Chaetostoma are fun to keep. they do a lot of chasing each other around in a tank and are therefore seen more often than some of the more colorful Peckoltia and Hypancistrus which often hide most of the time.
I have only kept one group of Chaetostoma cf milesi but I found them to be more than interesting enough to keep. I never did breed them but that was my plan. I had six about 15 years ago but not long enough to breed them and at that time I knew next to nothing about unusual plecos. congratulations. Loricariidae fry are among the most endearing of tropical fish fry.

[grokefish]

Dude well done!

To be honest from my experience you should leave the fry in the main tank, it takes them a while to work out what is to eat and there is more natural stuff in the tank than one realises.
If you don't have alot of algae in the tank and with 4 zippy fish I doubt there is much actual 'algae' in there.
Get some plastic bottles and cut them open fill with tank water and flat rocks and leave them on the windowsill. These fry will not benefit from them but future fry may.

You need some Hikari algae wafers and GOLDFISH flake.

This was the route I took, to be honest I was not massively successful in raising the fry but I did manage to grow some up to 1/2 inch before the whole tank was wiped out of loricarids by some bacterial/fungal infection caused by using a bare bottomed tank (I removed the sand after the events, this was a BIG mistake).

I have found some potential spawning triggers which I shall be investigating more with some new specimens and including in a full report I intend writing at some point in my life .

[davidkozak]

Since posting this morning about half of the fry have escaped from the breeder basket into the tank. I agree that they're probably better off in the tank anyway, so i released the remaining ones from the basket into the tank. It's a mature tank with algae on the walls of the tank, and on some of the rocks so they may do alright. I was reading an article earlier that mentioned "painting" some rocks with a mixture of crushed/ground up food and egg whites: would this be worth trying? David

[davidkozak]

Update: the last small batch of fry didn't survive..One of the males is currently sitting on a batch of eggs as of a few days ago..He's very protective of them and is clinging to them really closely. Even my obnoxious shifting of his cave to get pictures/video won't budge him..David
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjA7ug5A ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZ9DWOpt--Y

[davidkozak]

Starting to see fry(with yolksac) on the glass today.I've turned off the powerheads in the tank: I think they might've been getting sucked into them and perishing. Hopefully I get them to survive in some numbers this time..David

[Jools]

If you'd care to share those videos, I'd love to post them to the catelog - they're ace!

Jools

[grokefish]

Get the GOLDFISH FLAKES in there dude.

[davidkozak]

If you'd care to share those videos, I'd love to post them to the catelog - they're ace!

Jools

Be my guest
David

[davidkozak]

I didn't have any luck with the last spawn. The male ate most if not all of the eggs before, or as they were hatching. I recently got another spawn and decided to try something different. A couple days after the spawn I stole the eggs to raise seperately. All the eggs "eyed up" and all appear to have been fertilized. The hard part will be getting them all to eat/thrive now. Here are some videos of the eggs over the course of the last couple days and a video taken a short time ago of the first wiggler emerging through the outer egg "shell".. (I really wish the last video would've been a little clearer) David







[Mod edit: Use youtube tags... (now fixed it!) --Mats]

[davidkozak]

Update/Observations:


As of today I have an accurate count of18 fry with no apparent losses since they finished hatching almost a week ago. I believe I lost several of the eggs/fry to the predation of the shrimp in the tank before I noticed and created a "buffer zone" around the breeder basket with a net. I also lost a few that appeared to die in the eggs without hatching <---these eggs were closer to the center of the clutch and this may have been prevented had they been assisted by the adult male. Or, he may have just ate most of them again as he has in past spawns. They remain in the breeder basket with an airstone, hanging in the 90 gallon tank that the adults reside in. i have added a couple broken pieces of clay pot to the basket and they seem to prefer to cling to the undersides of these.


The eggsacs have been absorbed after almost 7 days, and they appear to be eating well. (as evidenced by the full bellies in the 2nd video below) To date I have added very small amounts of spirulina powder, and a small amount of a wheat based pellet to the basket. I'm unsure whether they are eating the above, or just grazing on the thin layer of slime/algae coating the breeder basket. I intend to try "painting" a mixture of egg whites and spirulina powder on broken pieces of clay pot and see if I can get them to accept that as food. David

[davidkozak]

Fry at just over 30 days from the eggsac having been absorbed...So far-so good.



[Mod edit: Add youtube tags --Mats]