Striped Raphael/Humbug -dying/gasping @ tank

[MissBooBoo]

Hello Forum. First time posting. I hope I'm in the right section? No Hospital Section could I find. I have 2 striped raphael catfish which I thought had Ich. I have treated them (half dosage) with Nox-Ich. Appear worse. Reddening of fins where white used to be?? Gasping at tank. Will not eat. Have Pleco with tank mate. Does not appear to be affected. Water parameters are normal. Other Forums thought ammonia, but the ammonia is 0 ppm.

Nitrite - 0ppm
Nitrate - 0ppm (20% water change today and yesterday and approx 3 days prior)
PH (High Range drop kit) - 7.4/7.8
PH (Low Range drop kit) - 7.6

28 Gallon Hex
Temperature: 78-80

Have put in 2 spoonfuls of Kanaplex tonight. I am desperate. They are red around the mouth, anus, fins and what were white streakes on their sides. Any advice or experience is beyond appreciated.

The 1st below pix is what catfish looked like approx 4 days ago. Twice as bad now, and has affected the other one. 2nd pix is what the white used to look like. Please help me and PLEASE move this post to a Forum where I can get feedback. Urgent, urgent, urgent. I don't know if they will last the night. Thank you. Sunday, April 4th, 2010

[MatsP]

It looks like an internal infection to me. This is far from easy to deal with, partly because it's usually a secondary illness - it's a "follow on" to some other problem that reduced the fish's resistance to illness. There are medications that supposedly work for internal infections, but my personal experience is a 0% success-rate. I have not tried Kanaplex, but it's the right kind of medication, for sure.

I'm very suspicious as to your 0 ppm nitrate level - your tank doesn't look like a heavily planted, highly lit tank where plants would consume the nitrate. If the nitrate level is indeed correct, in which case your tank is cycling, or your test kit is not showing the actual value - the latter is not at all unusual, as nitrate tests "go off" after some time. It's certainly worth double checking - either get a new test-kit or take a sample of water to your LFS.

--
Mats

[MissBooBoo]

Nitrates are low because of frequent water changes. 20% yesterday and 20% day before - another 20% 2 days before that. I appreciate all the advice, and I am desperately in need of it. They are so red and inflammed it's heartbreaking. Some discolouration on one of their bellies, noticed this morning. Almost looks like some skin has come off? Please, readers, your thoughts and any experience. Thank you. Monday, April 5th, 2010

[MatsP]

Nitrates are low because of frequent water changes. 20% yesterday and 20% day before - another 20% 2 days before that. I appreciate all the advice, and I am desperately in need of it. They are so red and inflammed it's heartbreaking. Some discolouration on one of their bellies, noticed this morning. Almost looks like some skin has come off? Please, readers, your thoughts and any experience. Thank you. Monday, April 5th, 2010

So, thats 80% water change - and no feeding at all in that time? Food will bring up nitrate levels. And even the tap-water probably contains some small amount of nitrate... I'm not saying this is the problem - I'm just saying "double check it" - because we've seen more than a few cases of "I thought the nitrate was zero, but it really was much higher".

By all means, keep up the water changes.

--
Mats

[Richard B]

very seldom does water contain 0ppm nitrates unless you do something specific to it, even with large frequent water changes as tapwater generally has a readable value of some sort

[MissBooBoo]

I have been doing water changes every day or every 2nd day. This stresses the fish out even more. Tested last evening and levels were what I posted. I have taken out the carbon this week while medicating. 20% of the water was taken out each time. Not 80% all at once??!! Please keep your replies coming. I'm off to see if I can get any advice from the fish store. This is a nightmare. I've had these fish for 2.5 years with no problem. I clean weekley 20% and filtration products monthly. My temp is about 79-80. They were moved from an earlier tank 7 days ago. Once I noticed a bit of redness/pinkyness on one cat's side. They were with a pleco who chases them for a few weeks.

I know they were stressed when I moved them, but it was to a bigger tank. I never had problems like this before. Please help me and my beautiful two raphs.

[MatsP]

Is the filter in the new tank an already working filter from a tank that has fish in it, or is it a new filter? If it's new, then that would mean your tank is cycling - which would explain the lack of nitrate.

Also, are you using a tap-water conditioner when doing water changes?

--
Mats

[MissBooBoo]

Could this be Hemorrhagic Septicemia??

[MatsP]

If you mean Viral Hemorrhagic Septicemia - then I don't think so.

If you mean the bacterial infection, then yes, almost certainly that or something closely related. But as I said originally, this is generally a side-effect of something being wrong in the system, reducing the immune system of the fish.

--
Mats

[MissBooBoo]

Thank you. The water was just tested by someone I've known for years at a fish store. It's fine. He had a similar experience with some fish and it's agreed it is bacterial. Are any members familiar with FURAN-2?

[MissBooBoo]

Redness/Bloddyness of fins seems to be fading a bit. Gave 1 treatment of Furnan-2, plus Kanaplex. Thanks everyone who replied. After a week, I finally was able to diagnose what the problem was. Septicemia. The only treatment that seems to be relieving their stress.

[andywoolloo]

I have been doing water changes every day or every 2nd day. This stresses the fish out even more.

that seems kind of strange to me. Just keeps sticking out as I read your posts.

All my tanks get large 50% or more volumn water changes every 4 days approximately and they seem to absolutely love it.

Do you remember your dechlor and do you try to get the water as close to same temp as water in the tank already?

What are your actual readings for Ammonia Nitrite Nitrate ph temp. I knwo you said yuo are treating for septecemia and he seems relieved , I am glad about that. I am just curious as to what caused it.

If your tank is cycling, newly set up, you need to have your own test kit, liquid drop API is what I use and be testing a few times a day and doing partial water changes accordingly to keep the A and or NI at or below 0.25ppm for the fishes health and well being. Water changes do not affect the cycle time, and they save your fish from harm and possibly death and almost certainly shotened life span. Make sure and add dechlor and make sure the water going back in is as close to temp of water in tank already. You can add some media from a trusted person tank if their tank is cycled and that will help jump start yours?

If you aren't cycled already I mean.

I hope your fish gets better.

[MissBooBoo]

IMG]http://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af15 ... om/011.jpg[/IMG]




These are the images as of Wed, April 7th, 2010. Please help me!

[MatsP]

I'm ever so sorry to say this, but I think at this point in time, I'd say it's, sadly "Game over". End it's suffering. You can buy clove-oil which is a fish-anesthetic, and if you overdose it, the fish will pass away, just like the vet will put a dog or cat down when it's "beyond saving".

--
Mats

[MissBooBoo]

Thanks for the advice. Unfortunately, I am not able to do that. I have had these fish for 3 years with no problem. This came out of nowhere. No where have I been able to find any information on how to treat this on the Internet. Every person has a different opinion. The only thing I can like it to is Septicemia. I wish it were a problem with my water. It is not. The water has been checked, checked and re-checked. Have treated with FURAN-2 for last two days, plus one spoonful of Kanaplex. It seemed to have stopped their reddening of the mouth and fins. As you can see by the pictures, they are still inflamed on their sides and their skin seems to be peeling.

I need opinions - even fish scientists. Links, opinions, whether negative or positive is highly needed. Thank you again for your post. No one seems to be reading my posts on this website. *AM* I in the right Forum category?? I could find no Hospital section on this website.

Thank you.
07/April/2010 5:12 PM

[MatsP]

We do not have separate "hospital section", and yes, this is the section do discuss this type of fish.

I think the medication you are using is what you should use for this illness - however, as I stated in my very first reply to this thread: It is a fish illness with very poor recovery rate - most of the time, when you actually notice this illness, it is very often too late.

I'm not saying you are wrong asking for more advice, and saying "I can't do that" - I understand. But since the medication is clearly NOT doing what it should do, I personally think it's kinder to stop the suffering than to keep going until they die from the illness.

I'd be very happy if someone comes along as says "Oh, but you can cure this by doing ..." - I'm however not holding much hope for this.

--
Mats

[MissBooBoo]

Thank you. I do appreciate your honest opinion. I love these fish like my own pets (dog/cat). It is not a hobby. I'm sure you can understand that I am welcome to any advice. Thank you for your opinion. I cannot understand how this happened. I have no answers, only more questions the more I try to do a search on medications and symptoms. I feel sick inside about this, not being able to find a cure. Thank you again. If possible, please *alert* my post.

[MissBooBoo]

PS: What are the affects of Sodium Chloride on this fish? The FURAN-2 powder (API) contains:
Sodium Chloride 90%
Nitrofurazone 1-5
Silica Amorphous, fumed, crystalline free 1-5
Furazolidone 1
(per MSDS)
KANAPLEX (Seachem) contains: Kanamycin Sulfate (40%) and Potassium Sulfate (60%).

They seemed better yesterday (06/April/2010) after 2nd treatment of FURAN-2 (API). Directions were 1 packet per 10 gallon. I have 28 GALLON HEXAGON. Fear of over-med, plus scaleless. Put in 2 packets = 20 gallon, *plus* one level spoonful of KanaPlex. Mixing meds? Dangerous? Yes, I know. However, API website writes you can use both FURAN-2 and KanaPlex together. Kanaplex medications - 1 spoonful for every 5 gallon.

25% water change today. No medication. No carbon. Water parameters normal. Temp 79-80. Tank is covered to help eliminate any more stress.

[MatsP]

Sodium chloride is the same as your regular table salt. In small doses, it should have no detrimental effect on the fish (and to some extent, it will help the fish "breathe"). In large doses, it will be bad for the fish. What size is the spoon? Most medications I've used use a tiny spoon, in which case it's nothing to worry about.

I'm pretty sure it is there for the purpose of making it "dosable" - if you had to measure the pure active ingredients, it would just be an absolute tiny amount.

I'm truly sorry I can't help more.

--
Mats

[MissBooBoo]

Thank you. The dosage for the FURAN-2 were 1 packet per gallon. Packet equalled 1 tablespoon.
Is there a difference between Sodium Chloride vrs. (API's) Aquarium Salt? If I read like an idiot, I do apologize. I'm 2nd-guessing everything I've done for the last week for these raphael catfish. Is the cure going to kill or help? My thoughts only. Thks.

[MatsP]

1 tablespoon of salt per 10 gallon sounds like a fairly large mount. But not so much that it should cause a big problem. If you are also doing large water changes, then it shouldn't be a problem. Those who suggest using salt in tanks apply a dose of about 1 tbsp per 5 gal, so the dose you have is half that (or a bit less, since you add 2 x 10 gallon dose into a 28 gallon volume).

API (and other manufacturers') Aquarium salt is essentially the same as sodium chloride. It may contain a small proportion of other minerals, but the absolutely largest component would be sodium chloride.

As to the efficiency of the medication, I can't really say. I've never used Furan-2, but it's certainly the right type of medication for this type of illness.

--
Mats

[Marc van Arc]

Although your fish seem "beyond repair", you might try Ceporex, an antibiotic for cats and dogs.
We've had good results in the past.
Don't know about availability in the US though.
Good luck.

[MissBooBoo]

Although your fish seem "beyond repair", you might try Ceporex, an antibiotic for cats and dogs.
We've had good results in the past.

I am a Canadian, not an American. Thank you for your post. I have not heard of that anti before, but will research. Again, ALL posts are welcome. I'm having a mini-breakdown here, wondering how to medicate (if possible). I don't understand WHERE did this come from? I'm an avid fish keeper. If not, I could understand to a degree. I'm desperate and need help for my fish beyond yesterday!

[L number Banana]

Hi, fellow Canadian here. Hope your fish are doing okay. We can all understand about fish as pets and most of us have had a real heartbreaker as well so we're crossing our fingers for you.

You were asking about what my have caused this and andywolloo asked about the cycling of the tank. That may be the answer if you were using a brand new filter and it wasn't full of the good bacteria that makes a tank 'cycled'. Ammonia can spike in uncycled tanks and start the stress that can lead to other things. Also I didn't see if you mentioned you were conditioning the tap water and using it at the same temp. Let us know about those sorts of things and maybe we can trace back what started it.

PS - Canada's got more than a few different water systems, let us know where abouts you're from and someone may know more specifics about your tap water.


Edit: sorry you had to have this as your first post, but wishing you good luck and welcome to Planet Catfish!

[Richard B]

Sorry about chipping in late...

In almost all cases of treating infections with fish, there are some simple things to consider

1 - oxygenation - there looks to be a good supply in your tank

2 - water quality - you have posted that the water has been tested & things are fine, could you quote what parameters have been tested & what the readings are please. I would test every couple of days & check for variation. Frequent water changes will help enormously. The water used for refilling should be checked to ensure it has the same acceptable parameters as the tank water - pH, Temp, etc

A lot of outbreaks of disease are a indication of something else that is fundamentally incorrect with the set-up. Here you are attempting to treat a bacterial infection but the underlying question is what initially upset the happy balance you had & caused the fish to succumb to infection - without removing the root cause, long term resolution of the problem will be very difficult

How deep is the deepest part of the substrate? Is there any trapped detritus/muck etc that needs removing? Is it possible the water has become contaminated with household sprays, cleaning products etc that may have been airborne? Has there been any decorating? All unusual things need to be considered, like maybe there is some chemical/dye agent leaking from the artificial gravel? Some of these unknown things are harmful in very small quantities. I thought i saw seashells in one pic - even these have an effect on the water & would not be encountered by a south american species - is there anything you can think of that has happened out of the ordinary?

Ps the white marks on the right flank look like a heater burn - is this possible? It can happen with Raphs.

[MissBooBoo]

Thank you. There is nothing clogging up the filter. 2 large airstones in tank. Heater is covered to reduce burns. Temperature 79C. Water checked approx 10 hours ago. Readings: (Bottle Test)
Nitrate - 0ppm
PH (High Test) - 7.4
PH (Low Test) - 7.6
Ammonia - 0 ppm
Nitrite - 0 ppm

The redness seems to have paled a bit. They are on their 2nd dosage of the FURAN-2 Treatment, out of a recommended 4.
FURAN-2 Ingredients: Sodium Chloride >90; Nitrofurazone 1-5; Furazolidone <1; Silica Amorphous, fumed, Crystalline Free 1-5. This is what I downloaded on the Material Safety Data Sheet (MSDS).

Should nothing appear better next week, I PolyGuard (by "Seachem"). It claims to treat the following infections:
Parasitic; Fungal; Bacterial. Viral is not checked off. It's ingredients are:
Active Ingredients: Sulfathiazole (75); Malachite Green (4%); Nitrofurantoin (0.25%); 5-Nitro-2-Furaldenhyde Secmicarbazole (0.25%); Quinacrine Dihydrochloride (0.5%). Inactive Ingredients: Magnesium Carbonate (20%).

I have taken out the carbon approx 7 days ago when I was treating for Ich. Carbon has been been replaced and let run for approx 2.5 hours to clear out any other medications. 28 Gallon Hexagon with high performance Rena Filtstar filter.

[MatsP]

Should nothing appear better next week, I PolyGuard (by "Seachem"). It claims to treat the following infections:
Parasitic; Fungal; Bacterial. Viral is not checked off. It's ingredients are:
Active Ingredients: Sulfathiazole (75); Malachite Green (4%); Nitrofurantoin (0.25%); 5-Nitro-2-Furaldenhyde Secmicarbazole (0.25%); Quinacrine Dihydrochloride (0.5%). Inactive Ingredients: Magnesium Carbonate (20%).

That sounds like the fish-medication equivalent of a "Long island ice-tea" - it has a good mix of "strong" stuff.

--
Mats

[MissBooBoo]

After Treatment (FURAN-2) *60mg Nitrofurazone; 25 mg Furazolidoine per packet*





Before Treatment: 07/April/2010



Originally Autumn 2010:



They had another 25%-30% partial water change today before I added more medication. Yes, they look a bit better. I`m concerned about a patch on the rounder one`s side. I have tried to take a picture (3rd & 4th *after treatment). It almost looks kind of fungal. I`m treating for Bacterial, but am afraid this may spread. Wait and see. Water parameters seem normal this morning. Going to do another test in a few hours. Added 2 capfuls of StressCoat (looks like they may be losing their slime coat.) They are at the bottom of the tank now. Probably because they were so stressed when I did the water change. One guy doesn`t seem to have as rapid a gill movement, but the round one, is breathing heavy. The round one was the last to show any redness or bleeding. Another water test approx 6.5 hours after partial water change-medications:
Ammonia - 0ppm
Nitrite - 0 ppm
PH (High Test) - 7.4
PH (Low Test) - 7.6
Nitrate - 10-20 ppm (redid 3 times)
Copper - 0 ppm (new test)
KH - 71.6 ppm (new test - hope I did correct)
GH - 89.5 ppm (new test).

thks

[wrasse]

Hello,

I've just read through this thread. The last photos appear to show some improvement - if that's the case - well done! And by now you are probably more up-to-date with medication than most of us.

I can't add much to what the others have said, other than - are these specimens always so round? What are you feeding them? Were they still feeding during treatment? Its just that they look like they have gorged themselves on something. Can I suggest - if you have not done it already - that for the remaining period of medication you stop feeding them. If you are not happy to do that, just feed live/ frozen live food and let them 'flush themselves out'.

There are certain meds available through retailers, usually labelled 'tonic', that target bacteria, fungus and parasites. Used with salt, I find its a very effective combination when I quarantine new fish that need a bit of help adjusting. I use Interpet General Tonic.

[MissBooBoo]

Thank you for responding to my post! I have always feed them 2 small pellets of catfish/bottom feeder food twice a day. Yes, I know, one appears to have ballooned up. He or she has been like that for many months now. I was even wondering if one was a female and had eggs. I was concerned, too.

The Rhaphael/Humbug fish have not eaten for the last 7 days approx. Today and yesterday were truly the first days I have noticed them eating since this disease took hold of them. What I am feeding them during this period is a medicated food directly from a specialized fish store the owner made up for me.

The above 2 pictures are from a few hours ago before going onto their 3rd treatment out of the recommended 4 by (FURAN-2 - API). Contains: Sodium Chloride 90%; Nitrofurazone 1-5%, Furazolidone <1% and Silica Amorphous, Fumed, Crystalline Free 1-5%. Had earlier used a bit of Kanaplex (by SeaChem) for an antibiodic. Thanks for your concern. I have been faithfully doing research and getting advice on how I can help them. All thoughts or comments are always welcome.
PS: The whiteness along their sides was literally pink/bloody. Unsure how it ever happened and not much resources on the Net, even in the 21st century. Vey, very, very difficult to get information on how to treat.