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in the same condition, and the large female jaguar looks to have reddening in the pectoral fins and the mouth, although the congo tetras and angels all look in perfect health. I also found one of the
dead, hadn't been that way for very long (I'd estimate less than 24 hours).
Platydoras
Liosomadoras
I only have Myxazin, and with the weather here snowing again won't be able to get out again until tomorrow (as long as we don't get the expected 6"+ of snow they have forecast for tonight) - best suggestions please?
I'd already reduced the temperature again back to 25C, I'll upload and ad pictures in a bit, but the ones of the Platydoras look like the same symptons as the Auchenipterus. I'm desperate to not lose anymore, especially the jags!
Help!
This is ********* unbelievable. What's going on??
If you were nearer I'd come over to take a look. But I'm not, so here's my distant advice: I'd change 3/4 of your water to get rid of the medicin. I believe the medicin caused all this trouble - instead of preventing against it. Using coal would take too long; I'm afraid you'll have to start asap.
Ime you can add some salt to the fresh water; it'll help your fishes to rebuild their slime layer (is that the right name? I mean the slimey top layer of their skin).
Marc
I know - I just can't believe it. I've used Myxazin so many times over the years I've kept fish with absolutley no ill effect whatsoever, so am at a loss to explain why this time it has caused such a terrible result (though I just don't understand why this time, when I have used it with the same fish at least twice in the past year).
Water change is in progress, and how much salt would you recommend?
Martin
I've just finished a long talk with Alex about your problems. This is what we think you should do:
- change as much water as you dare; at least 3/4. We think your water has been poisoned (dead fish, meds, nitrate, ammonia?) and that is what your fishes react on. Afawcs, this is not bacterial.
- salt: 1 gramme per liter. Dissolve first before adding!
- use a water conditioner, like AquaSafe
Alex will react in a seperate post. He might expand a little on the chemical stuff.
Interests: African catfishes and oddballs, Madagascar cichlids; stoner doom and heavy rock; old school choppers and riding them, fantasy novels, travelling and diving in the tropics and all things nature.
just had a long talk with Marc and a good look at the pix of your Auchenipterus and the cats in this post and I've come to the conclusion that this is NOT a bacterial infection but a skinreaction of the fish to something in the water wich they are unable to cope with.
i can go downstairs and check a victim of bacterial skin infection and the differences are as follows:
Bacterial infection:
-skin looks raw, like there's a layer missing (the mucus layer, most likely)
-fins are missing parts, the edges look 'broken'
-red or pink area's on fins and body
the last one's tricky, cause this shows on the next one as well:
skin irritation as a reaction to toxins:
-skin looks grey, white or even fuzzy, "spiky" (very much visible on the Auchenipterids you posted)
-skin has a flaky grey look, like a reptile shedding skin.
-bloated eyes, greyed thickened cornea
-curling whiskers (!!).
this last one is a give-away: curling whiskers is something that is mentioned often in many "big cats postings" when people keep large pims in too small tanks and the ammonia and/or nitrite go through the roof. once whiskers start to whiten and curl, it's obvious the water has become toxic for the catfish.
this can be seen with Platydoras here.
my conclusion: what happened is what we call in Dutch a "snowball effect" (like kicking a snowball off a mountain to create avalanches), a chain reaction.
the Auchenipterus you got reacted badly to the medication you added.
why some fish react badly to meds, or even some individuals while others of the same species will not, remains a mystery; but certain species simply can't handle meds.
or they can't handle meds when the water contains any other substance, for example too many nutrients.
they reacted badly and died.
now here's the crux: a dead or dying fish (or snail! it's well known with snails) releases a LOT of bad stuff in the water.
your Auchenipterids died and right after that you added a medicin to the tank.
one thing the other fish could likely handle, but not both.
add to this that both the 'juice' from the fish corpses and the meds busted up your bacteria (the good ones) pretty bad, most likely you got a nitrite or ammonia spike.
that's 3 kinds of bad stuff floating in the water wich is now harming your fish.
toxins from decomposing dead catfish
medications
ammonia and/or nitrites
what you need to do is a waterchange, but a BIG one. at least 4/5th of the water. 2/3rd won't cut it, you need to go all the way. because all the "bad dead fish corpse juices" need to be removed.
to the new fresh clean water you need to add waterconditioner, "blue" as we call it. Aquasafe, Aquitan or whatever you have; any UK brand'll do fine as well.
something to neutralize big bad molecules made from dying proteins and medicin residu.
also, you better add non iodized salt, preferably marine salt used for reeftanks. but kitchensalt'll do as long as it's the kind without added iodine.
1 gram per liter tankwater. you have to convert it to non metrics; I'm not good at those.
hooking up a diffusor or adding an airstone will help.
filtration on active carbon is also to be recommended
Thanks so much Alex and Marc
Am in the process of changing the water now - it it about half empty, so a bit further to go. I have aquasafe, and will treat accordingly when I add the new water.
I don't doubt you are right, but FYI I didn't treat again after removing the Auchenipterus - I had done the four of the five days and with the fish no longer in the tank I did not repeat the last treatment. I don't have ammonia or nitrate test kits (only the dip-stick for nitrate), but that shows no nitrite or nitrate, and a liquid test gives a minimal reading for nitrite, but nothing that a water change won't normally fix.
What I don't understand is why the tetras and angels look so healthy, while the cats are looking so bad!
Anyway, as I said, thanks so much - water level is getting close to the 3/4 mark, so need to be there - will post back later once the water is changed. What salt - tonic salt, or marine salt? At present I only have table salt which I know is no good, so will need to get to the pet store tomorrow to get some. I have a few litres of marine salt water spare (did a water change today and have some left over) - will that be a good start?
Martin
Interests: African catfishes and oddballs, Madagascar cichlids; stoner doom and heavy rock; old school choppers and riding them, fantasy novels, travelling and diving in the tropics and all things nature.
OK.
I did two (one about 40%, the other about 20%) during the time they were in the tank, but actually, for some strange reason, no I didn't do one after I removed them, which in hindsight, I should have done. I think my logic was leave them alone so I don't do any more damage - after finding the fish in such a poor state over such a short time, I was just so upset I didn't want to risk hurting any more of them.
New water is going back in slowly, and have added the salt water to the tank slowly at the same time. As it was only a small amount (a couple of litres maybe at an SG of 1.026), should I add more tomorrow? I get my salt water premixed from my LFS and only need about 6 litres, and always manage to bring home more than I need, whgich this time was a blessing.
The two airstones are running in the tank (powered by the largest TetraTec APS air pump), and have been since earlier this week.
Thanks so much (again).
Martin
Another casualty
Tetranematichthys wallacei
He was, as is often the case, laying on his side - colouring was normal, and so thought nothing of it. I was just looking at the tank in general to see how the other fish looked when I noticed the doral fin was standing erect, which it doesn't normally when resting. I put my arm in - sometimes it can seem dead and then fly off at high speed, but not this time. I'd say died some time today - the eyes had just started to cloud over, yet there was no visible slime damage, no redness or anything that looked out of the ordinary...except that it is no longer.
The female jag is out and about in the light, barbels all look healthy, and she is not gasping or looking as bad. The small jag and Rhinodoras have moved as their usual hide was out of the water until recently.
The Platydoras doesn't look good, still breathing but in a really bad way - I think it may be too late, but fingers crossed.
A sad day indeed
Martin
A sad day..... you can say that again.
Of course I hope the Platydoras will make it. Rationally I'd say concentrate on the fishes that are doing less worse/better atm. Have a close look so you are able to compare tomorrow. If all goes well, your fishes should be in the same state or even in a slightly improved state (Platydoras). This will not be better over night, but will go gradually ime.
Add nothing (meaning no fish) for the time being and keep looking.
The fact that some fishes in the same tank are dying while others are displaying their finest colours has always puzzled both Alex and myself.
We've been there several times; Alex has even very recently.
Stick to the positive fact that at least you don't have to worry about your angels and congos for some reason......
Hope you'll have a better day tomorrow.
Yes, thanks to you both.
The Platydoras is still breathing, so I will just have to check again in the morning.
It's been a tough week in my fishkeeping life...
Thanks again - very much appreciated.
Martin
Hang in there Martin, fingers crossed for you. Went through similar stuff a while ago with that velvet ick thing that you can really see until it's too late. Lost a lot in a matter of two days but it would have been tougher if I didn't know how it had happened. It sounds like Marc and Alex are on the money with the combo effect.
Hope the snow holds off for you!
Racing, shoes and fish. Nothing else matters. Oh, and bacon.
As suspected, the Platydoras didn't make it through the night Fingers crossed for no more casualties.
OK, so I'm confused. I did a nitrite test on the tank water and got the same light pink reading (~0.1mg/l) I've been getting since the tank was set up, even after the massive water change last night, so I decided to test the tap water (cold feed) and got exactly the same reading!
I then tried with a tetra NO2 test kit, and the colour chart shows yellow as being <0.3mg/l, which result I get for both tank and tap water - now i all my years of keeping fish, any nitrite has always been a no-no, yet Tetra's test seems to imply that <0.3mg/l is acceptable
What are the chances of the tap water having nitrite? And am I right to think <0.3mg/l an unacceptable limit?
Martin
Martin S wrote:What are the chances of the tap water having nitrite? And am I right to think <0.3mg/l an unacceptable limit?
Martin
Over here our tap water (Eindhoven) has an average of 1,0 mg/l. I just checked and was amazed by all the other chemicals that are in it as well.
But as I've told you before, I'm not very good at that kind of stuff. That's why I hardly ever use those test kits; it would only worry me. And before you know it, these expensive things have passed their "best before" date and become unreliable......
Sorry for the loss of your Platydoras. How are your other fishes behaving? They didn't get worse, did they?
Don't forget to add the remaining part of the salt!
You could look this up as well ( I reckon) through your local water supplier.
Martin S wrote:Sorry for the loss of your Platydoras. How are your other fishes behaving? They didn't get worse, did they?
No, everything else looks and seems OK this morning which is good news at least. I don't want to assume I'm 'out of the wods' yet, but am going to be extra vigilant over the next few days, watching them, looking for any signs. The angels and congos are feeding like nothing has happened!
Martin S wrote:Don't forget to add the remaining part of the salt!
No, I won't.
Martin S wrote:You could look this up as well ( I reckon) through your local water supplier.
OK, will try online today, and if not, call them tomorrow.
Thanks again Marc
Martin
- all died, at first I thought it was parasites, so added "Wormer Plus", but that appears to have had little effect, as two of them died after medication. The
definitely has white-spot, and I've added Protozin for that. I now suspect the L183 were carrying white-spot, but it only affected the gills, not outside of the body.
Daniel/Jimmy, are your fishes allright? I feel very bad about this...
- all died, at first I thought it was parasites, so added "Wormer Plus", but that appears to have had little effect, as two of them died after medication. The
definitely has white-spot, and I've added Protozin for that. I now suspect the L183 were carrying white-spot, but it only affected the gills, not outside of the body.
Daniel/Jimmy, are your fishes allright? I feel very bad about this...
--
Mats
No reason for you to feel bad Mats - I'm guessing it's just the multiple moving/different water conditions at each stop that is the main factor in the problems we've both had - I just hope Daniel and Jimmy have been luckier. I feel just as bad knowing you lost yours too, though I'm not sure the deaths are related.
Richard B wrote:OMG - just picked up this thread - disaster doesn't quite cover it
No, indeed, but the jags seem OK, as does the Rhinodoras, and the Lasiancistrus looks 100% too. What's really odd, as Marc repeated, is the fact the the angels and congo tetras all look perfect, all fins are up and the colours are superb.
I do hope I'm over the worst of it....
Martin
This is all really bad news Martin. Just come upon this thread and thrashed through it, lots of good advice so not much I could add - I agree that the water became toxic. Good luck with your course of action.
Your other existing fish - the congos and angels - I guess they have a kind of 'established fish immunity'. You've had them a while, they're used to the tank conditions, they have strong immune systems. Sometimes, its just the new additions that suffer an outbreak.
In the past I've worked in 2 shops and would use myxazin for white patches, reddening in the fins, sores, cloudy eyes, etc. It was always viewed as a more gentle medication than others, and gentle on filter bacteria. I've even used it neat on an ulcer on a RTB shark - netting the fish once a day and dabbing the ulcer with myxazin on a paintbrush - it worked. I can see why it also might be used for whitespot on scaleless fishes. The whitespot in your photos is one of the more recent stubborn strains. I haven't seen that yellow 'stuff' before, it may be due to the bad water - I don't know.
Sorry to hear about your problems Martin . I'm not sure if tap water quality isn't more of a problem in Winter (at least in the UK), as myself and a few of my colleagues have been having problems (in the Sheffield area) with fish fatalities over the last month or so (in my case I've lost eight fish spread over five different tanks); I haven't dared test the tap water this year as it frightened me too much last year! I would have thought that a very low (rather than zero) nitrite reading (whilst obviously not desirable) wouldn't cause too huge a problem for an established tank as the denitrifying bacteria should be able to quickly neutralise it, although for a large water change it doesn't help that you can't eliminate nitrite levels if the filters have lost some of their bacterial load. However, if your tanks are also showing the same reading it might mean the test kit is unreliable?
wrasse wrote:The whitespot in your photos is one of the more recent stubborn strains.
Afaics there's no such thing as white spot; what you see is dissolving slime layer.
Let's hope Martin's fishes won't get white spot after all the misery he had to deal with/is dealing with.
Thanks for the comments/observations/suggestions so far, but I think whatever it is must be a disease, because the large Microglanis has just sauntered out in daylight looking terrible, and after checking under/around all the bogwood to make sure there is nothing dead/dying that I haven't missed, I've just seen the large female Liosomadoras oncinus has, over the course of the afternoon (I saw her this morning and she looked OK) got cloudy eyes, fins and barbels are degrading as I watch and the smaler one, although currently having none of these symptoms, it is looking not good either. I added salt earlier today at the suggested rate, and it seems to have not made any difference, whatever it is is spreading throughout the catfish at an alarming rate.
Here is the Microglanis:
I can't get a picture of the jags, but will keep trying.
Regarding immunity - the congos have been in there only a couple of months, but (with the exception of the Microglanis) everything else came across from my smaller tank. The angels have also only been in there for no more than six months.
I don't know what to do!
This is just a suggestion for an unlikely possibilty, but I'' throw it in just in case it could help. How deep is your substrate layer? I lost two corydoras last year with very similar symptoms, from what I now suspect to have been contamination of the gravel due to the wood-eating habits of two Panaque maccus. I had to remove all decor, do a thorough gravel vac, and remove 70% of the substrate. I'm not suggesting bogwood is necessarily an issue with your water quality, but it might be something toxic in the substrate that won't be picked up by water testing.
, and areas of the sand are often cleared when several fish try and share the same space. I'd say max of 1.5" deep - there are a few deep areas where the sand has been pushed out from under the bogwood by the jags, but not deep. I also often lift the pieces of bogwood and ensure any organic matter that has settled is pushed out into the water flow so it can be dealt with by the filter.
Martin
Interests: African catfishes and oddballs, Madagascar cichlids; stoner doom and heavy rock; old school choppers and riding them, fantasy novels, travelling and diving in the tropics and all things nature.
I'm still convinced that this is some case of poisoning wich affects the catfish, but not the other fish
there are several substances wich are harmful to catfish, but not to others.
maybe it's a product of an unknown chemical reaction; the adding of the meds did something to the biological system running the tank and as a result someting turned bad?
if it was a massive infection by loads of bacteria, the characins and cichlids in there would be affected by now, if only because of the sheer number of those bacteria released from the sickened catfishes
I agree with Alex. Some toxic reaction has started to dissolve the mucus layer of your catfishes and without that protective layer they're an easy target for all kinds of crap. The best way to restore the layer ioo was a huge water change to get rid of the toxins and the addition of salt, because that helps to restore the mucus layer. However, this is not an overnight cure. I think everybody involved hoped it was, but it's not. Now it's up to the fishes to recover. They've had a lot of fresh water and some salt.
I know it may be very tempting, but the last thing you should do now imo is add medications. That'll only make things worse.
At this rate there'll be nothing left to medicate
The large female Liosomadoras was looking off earlier, and had not moved from behind some wood. When I posted last she was definitely still breathing, but I just checked and she is now dead - whatever it is, it is going through the catfish at an alarming rate. If you look at the photos you can see the degrading of the fin tissue - this has happened in only a few hours. The smaller one is going the same way.
I took one of her against a measure to show the final size - 6.5" TL.
I feel worse as this was a gift from Richard B - I am so sorry Richard.
Martin
and was amazed by all the other chemicals that are in it as well.
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