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Hello guys, I read in the past that the export from Brazil of the l-046 was banned. Ive been trying to find where I found that info but am having no luck. If someone is offering for sale some 2" WC Zebras would that mean that I should stay away from them since the law took effect @ 2004? What are the laws regarding this?

Ok, so there is the "ethical" and the "legal" view on this.

Legally:
The law applying to Hypancistrus zebra is Brazilian law, and it forbids the export of this species (and a whole raft of other species). There is no international law prohibiting the sale of these species, so as long as the selling country is not Brazil, you are legally free to buy/sell these fish (obviously subject to any other laws applying to sale of live fish, but that would be the same as for common plecos, guppies or whatever else).

Ethically:
The fish is smuggled out of Brazil. The trade of smuggled animals isn't exactly helpful to the people who are trying to protect the wildlife. Not to mention that it's quite likely that helping the smugglers of these fish, probably also helps other criminal activity...

There are (ok, not so many, but they do exist) captive bred Hypancistrus zebra in the trade. I'd say buy those. They are COMPLETELY legal, WORLDWIDE (obviously subject to local live fish regulations as above).

--
Mats

If you do decide to buy them, I would not sell their fry as F1. There is no way to prove that they are in fact wild caught because it is illegal to export these fish. I would also ask for pictures of the actual fish for sale ( not a group picture of all of the fish but individual pictures of the fish that you will receive). Make sure that they are the exact size that is mentioned. Also make sure that they are not malnourished ( extremely sunken bellies).

I would disagree with the F1 label. The fry of these guys will be F1....whether or not their parents are legally exported out or not....F1 is F1.

As for the proving of their parents are WC.....there is a sense of benefit of the doubt with breeders....we usually trust when the breeder says F1 or F2 or what have you. Even with legal exported plecos....it is almost impossible to prove if their parents are WC.

As for the pics......you can try, but I doubt he would even bother. His sales are heating up and going strong, he wouldnt have the time to pick out the individual fish and take a pic of them.

You only get F1 from breeding two wild caught fish. If they can not supply the pictures then do not buy the fish.

again goes to my point of 1) Saul's zebras are wild caught 2)if a breeder says their fry is F1 meaning the parents are WC...I would give them the benefit of the doubt unless they have a history.

though the pic thing is true for many people who just sell locally and in small numbers...like if I were to get rid of my zebras for example.....but Saul is like a wholesaler....who sells in the large numbers....and like all whole sellers...unless they only have like a couple of really rare fish.....they wont bother taking pics of individuals of a fish that they have LOTS of...since they know if you dont buy them..someone els will.

not trying to be mean or anything...but just something that I learned from experience.

Once again it is illegal to export these fish from Brazil. There is no way to prove that they are wild caught.

legal or illegal...I trust sellers especially sellers like Saul when they say its WC

have you ever thought of how you would possibly prove if any F1 plecos does come from WC parents? Using plecos that have not been selectively bre, how would you ever prove if ANY pleco....legal or not....there is no way you an track down the exact history of the parental fish.....

I would have more trust in a seller if the fish were legally exported. But when you have to break the law to get them all trust goes out the window.

that is why some people dont buy WC zebras...and others do.

There is no question that there has been A LOT of illegal plecos exported out of Brazil....and zebras are def one of the most popular ones....and there has been A LOT of zebras smuggled.

But either way....there is no question that the fry of these zebras would be considered F1.

No breeder in their right mind would breed their zebras..grow them to 2" and then sell them for 100 a pop....well at least no breeders I know.

Btw what is F1?

DJ-don wrote:Btw what is F1?

F1 is a term is genetics that refers to first generation....I thin G1 is used in some cases.....means the same thing just different terminology.

so the babies of 2 WC fish would be F1s.....the babies of 2 F1 fish would be F2s and so on and so forth.

As mentioned in an earlier post by Mats, there are a whole raft of plecos that are illegal to export. Where can I find this list or, if you know, what are some of the more common ones?

I have never ever heard of captive bred H. zebras being sold as wild cought. Captive bred fish are in much better condition and therefore demand higher prices. When someone unloads large numbers of 2 inch fish as wild cought they more than likely are wild cought. The seller has no reason to lie.

About the ethics I support what Mats says, but I also admit that four of my plecos (not zebras) has visited Iquitos, Peru on their way from Brazil to Norway. I am not proud of it, I am just born greedy

Patr1ck wrote:As mentioned in an earlier post by Mats, there are a whole raft of plecos that are illegal to export. Where can I find this list or, if you know, what are some of the more common ones?

you mean a list of the banned plecos? here is a list of them http://community.livejournal.com/ljaquariums/31270.html

if you mean a list of what illegal plecos are brought in....I dont think there is a list like this unless you get a hold of the exporters themselves or large wholesalers.

I am not too sure about your area...since rarity of plecos are highly location dependent. In Canada, or Ontario specifically....plecos like the L066, L333 or quite common despite their banned status...not because we get a lot of them smuggled, but because we have a lot of keepers and breeders of them in the area.

Thanks for the list. That definately helps with ethic and moral decisions. It looks like F-1s are the way to go for most of the plecos out there.

Mats wrote:Legally:
The law applying to Hypancistrus zebra is Brazilian law, and it forbids the export of this species (and a whole raft of other species). There is no international law prohibiting the sale of these species, so as long as the selling country is not Brazil, you are legally free to buy/sell these fish (obviously subject to any other laws applying to sale of live fish, but that would be the same as for common plecos, guppies or whatever else).

Almost correct, there are no international laws proteting other countries endangered and protected species... but, USA has a law that make it illegal to import and deal with endangered and protected species of third country. So, you are living in US and the importer of this H. zebra have breaking the laws and if discovered can be prosecuted. USA is the only country in the world that have laws against other countries endangered and protected species of fishes and all other animals... the rest of the world has not. There are an international convention, CITES that all countries follow including US and all other countries has laws only protecting species that are listed in CITES.

Janne

Interesting, and thanks for pointing that out.

--
Mats

DJ-don wrote:Btw what is F1?

Hi DJ-don F1 is the abbreviated version of Filial generation number 1. Successive generations are then consecutively numbered F2, F3 et ecetera. We tend to use the terminology loosely to apply to fish bred originally from wild caught fish but it also correctly applicable to breeding unrelated domestic strains of fish. An example could be breeding a domesticated Red swordtail with a domesticated green swordtail and the subsequent generations; any similar case like crossing a silver angel with and black angel and the descendants. You only need to keep a record, written or mentally to track the pedigree depending on how critical the record is for tracking your crossbred generations. Platy X swordtail hybrids that inherited gene pedigrees were assiduously recorded that caused melanomas and were carefully studied by the late famous Dr.Joanne Norton and her research was of interest to oncology.

The USA has a peculiar approach to enforcing the CITES Treaty.
The wild endangered Asian Arowana, Scleropages formosa, are a CITES Treaty fish but despite the fact that most are now farm raised and the farmers are required to return a certain percent(I think it is about 30%) of the fish they breed for the ornamental tropical fish trade back to the wild, all the fish they sell or the trade must have paperwork proving they are farm raised but these fish must also be implanted by an identification tag. They are internally implanted and the tags are easily scanned like most big retailers do with small, high priced merchandise.
Despite these measures and the fact that these are all farmed fish bred for colors that are not the same as the basic wild phenotype, they remain banned from import into the USA. I think this position is indefensible but it is US Federal law.
Elsewhere in the world, signatories of the treaty have provisions allowing for the legal sale of these farm raised, pedigreed and tagged fish. Seems silly when the authorities can't seem to keep Snake Heads out of the country. We have at least 3 species well established in different parts of the USA.

My position on the importation of wild Zebra plecos is a liberal one. If their native habitat is going to be destroyed as a result of the hydroelectric projects in the Rio Xingu, then their extinction seems to be imminent. If Brazil has a program I am unaware of that is aimed at the preservation of the species similar to that of the Pacific salmon species where a combination of engineering, operation of these facilities are in place along with supplementary state run hatcheries to mitigate the environmental impact enough to save the Zebra Pleco, I would be an ardent supporter of whatever it takes for Brazil to save these fish. I haven't seen or heard of any such mitigation efforts so I until I do, I find it hard to support an export ban of an apparently doomed species which has proven to be amenable to aquarium breeding programs. The more people who have and will breed Zebra plecos appears to be their best chance for continued existence. The existing aquarium stocks were so low when the ban became a reality that led to severe inbreeding and the subsequent development of a deformed "bull dog" captive bred mutant phenotype. The financial incentives for breeding even deformed specimens has not been a helpful development. If the recent influx of numbers of wild fish results in greater captive breeding programs of fish free from the "bull dog: mutation, I'm all for it.
Where were "our" ethics when "we" deliberately started breeding "bull dog" mutant zebras ? This species shouldn't have been subject to the same loose standards more common and prolific fish like Mollies and Ramirezi that were bred into grotesque balloon and long fin forms. These fish are still easily obtained from the wild in their normal form so there was little actual damage done to these species as a whole despite the development of the repugnant aquarium bred mutants.
The recent influx of large numbers of wild Zebra plecos is our second and probably only chance to preserve the normal form as long as breeders maintain pedigrees which are distributed with the future generations derived from these recently imported wild fish. Zoos do this to keep their captive specimens as genetically diverse as they can. No reasons why zebra breeders can't do the same thing. At the very least, it might make it easier to accept the high prices bred fish command.

An edit afterthought. Since Zebra Plecos sell for prices similar to popular lap dogs, then keeping pedigrees should make at least as much sense as it does for dogs.

Larry wrote:If their native habitat is going to be destroyed as a result of the hydroelectric projects in the Rio Xingu, then their extinction seems to be imminent.

I agree it's a good argument and I use it as often I can discussing this issue with the authoritys in Brazil, but until today the Belo Monte project is not yet approved.

Larry wrote:If Brazil has a program I am unaware of that is aimed at the preservation of the species similar to that of the Pacific salmon species where a combination of engineering, operation of these facilities are in place along with supplementary state run hatcheries to mitigate the environmental impact enough to save the Zebra Pleco, I would be an ardent supporter of whatever it takes for Brazil to save these fish.

I'm working on it but not with state runned hatcheries, they don't have the knowledge to manage that kind of program and they will fail due to their heavy bureaucracy.

Larry wrote:I find it hard to support an export ban of an apparently doomed species which has proven to be amenable to aquarium breeding programs.

Illegal activity like smuggling undermine conservations efforts and is a threat against conservation of any threatened animal.

Larry wrote:The existing aquarium stocks were so low when the ban became a reality that led to severe inbreeding and the subsequent development of a deformed "bull dog" captive bred mutant phenotype. The financial incentives for breeding even deformed specimens has not been a helpful development. If the recent influx of numbers of wild fish results in greater captive breeding programs of fish free from the "bull dog: mutation, I'm all for it.

I don't agree that deformations like "bull dog" is caused by inbreeding, I'm quite sure this deformations is caused by lack of knowledge how to breed Hypancistrus zebra that is little more sensitive than many other species.

Larry wrote:The recent influx of large numbers of wild Zebra plecos is our second and probably only chance to preserve the normal form as long as breeders maintain pedigrees which are distributed with the future generations derived from these recently imported wild fish. Zoos do this to keep their captive specimens as genetically diverse as they can. No reasons why zebra breeders can't do the same thing. At the very least, it might make it easier to accept the high prices bred fish command.

Most of the smuggled species ends up in Asia and breeders, a small part in US spread out on many aquarists, only people with the right knowledge can preserve a very small strain for a longer time but not in the long term. Lets hope instead it's possible to conserve H. zebra in Brazil and it's not yet to late to give up.

Janne

Yeah, Janne said it spot on.

I can understand what Haavard said also, cause it sure is tempting.

Not doing it, but it sure is tempting.

As an outsider looking in, one of the most difficult issues for me to understand since the inception of the original collection/export ban on H. zebra is why it has never been developed as a potential and renewable commodity for Brazilian citizens to institute commercial breeding hatcheries. Either purely as a government run, privately run or some form of public and private partnership projects. Even as a something that was given over to native tribal governmental entities. The Pacific Northwest USA tribes are heavily involved with the operation of their own fisheries management programs, primarily Pacific Salmon species. They usually coordinate much of their work so it compliments other fisheries agencies' projects and planning.
H. zebra are fairly delicate fish but I can think of species which are much more so but don't begin to approach the commercial value of H. zebra by the kilogram. These fish are not that difficult to breed and raise. How much easier would it be to raise them where the climate and water is right? Compared to food fish aquaculture, the low expenses and small sizes of Zebra pleco facilities would seem like good candidates for microfinanced businesses.
Very low technology breeding facilities made out of almost entirely low cost local natural materials which are commonly available could be used. The essentials of their husbandry are not very complex and so it would seem like the knowledge could be easily taught and learned.
Most of the foods are aquatic insects at various stages of their development which are not difficult to collect or culture.
I don't remember exactly when the Zebra ban originally went into effect but hasn't it been at least 10 years? A lot could have been done in 10 years. As an outsider, I can't possibly know what political. sociological or any of the other obstacles might have blocked anyone who may have wanted to do something about turning this naturally occurring and renewable resource into becoming a benefit if done by and for the region's residents. I doubt if there were not at least some resident groups who saw the potential benefits of the local commercial culturing of H. zebra long before our recent years' discussions. It is hard to imagine who could have been hurt by attempts to cultivate this resource.

I thought that the "bulldog" deformity was from incorrect water parameters causing the fish to struggle to break through the egg shell. Also, would 2 unrelated F-1's fry be F-2's?

Hi,

regarding the "bulldog thing": my current state of knowledge is that it is related to "inappropriate" diet in the first stages of development. There is (at least) one essential food ingredient that, if missing, can result in rather high amounts of bulldog type deformities in raised catfish. This is not constrained to H. zebra (I even "managed" to generate a bulldog Ancistrus sp. "L 309"), but H. zebra is the only fish with such a high prize and so much sought after that even these deformities are sold. My opinion: a responsible breeder of any kind of fish will sort out such deformed species, no matter if it is a mutation or the result of malnutrition.
Note that "bulldog deformations" were also generated from imported fry of certain catfish, so it is certainly not the result of inbreeding. There is some more systematic investigations done into this question by some aquarists, but I am afraid we will have to wait until their results are "properly published"..

Cheers, Sandor

Larry,

I'm workin on it, it's one of my main projects in Brazil. It's much more complicated than most people know, I started to work with the H. zebra project in January 2007 and have going through all the bureaucracy in Brazil. Even that I have all the authorities on my side we have a few obstacles left to solve, one of these is to change some of their laws regarding protecting of endangered species. Brazil has no experience of conservation or commercial breeding of fishes, they have not faced this problem before allowing large scales breeding of fishes. Yes, they do breed a lot of fishes in Brazil for the food industry but not with high technology... put them in ponds and let see what happens, some species works to breed in that way but not H. zebra.

Very low technology breeding facilities made out of almost entirely low cost local natural materials which are commonly available could be used. The essentials of their husbandry are not very complex and so it would seem like the knowledge could be easily taught and learned.

This is not correct, H. zebra belongs to these species that need high technology for successful commercial breeding, thats why we still not see so many bred ones in the trade and thats why some of them gets deformations bred by hobbyist's.
They banned H. zebra 2004, 5-6 years ago. The climate and water may be correct in their natural habitat but there is not the best place to breed them, if only for preserving it's the best place but not for any larger commercial-conservation project.

Janne

I love threads like this one because it is a fish I actually keep and spawn. I think there are still a few facets of this issue that have not been touched on yet.

1. Preserving zebras via captive breeding, whether farming or across an internatial group of hobbyists, has a fairly long time horizon due to the time to maturity a generation takes and the smaller sized spawns the fish produce. This has an impact on many of the other issues raised above.

2. The threat to their natural habitat is not limited to damming. The conversion of land from its naturally evolved state into farmland or for mining and the subsequent use of chemicals for agricultural or industrial purposes strike me as being an equally dangerous threat to many rivers.

3. Brazil's record on the enforcement of many environmental policies and laws is not exactly stellar?

1. It's a problem to conserve a species among hobbyists, they often have a limited source of pure speciemens in the long term and it's not so easy to exchange adults between each other, I don't mean to sound negative just to illuminate the obstacles.
2. Agree, I can see with my own eyes what have happens with our rivers in Sweden and Europe since I was born and that make me sad, when I was around 10 years old the water was clear in every lake and river in Sweden and the life was flourish under the surface (I start to dive before I could swim), today it's like a soap of brownish "dead" water with small populations of species trying to survive, its terrible.
3. Agree on this one too, hopefully we can change that and it looks promising.

Janne

Okay. Here is how Filial (F#) generation work.

Parents P generation
first filial generation F1
crosses from those F1s (same parents) F2
F2 crossed to another F2 (bro and sis) F3

and so on....
If you cross animal with its parent (F1xP, F2xF1, F96xF95, etc...) This is a backcross
If you cross any animal with an unrelated animal it is an outcross.

The F number should not be used to signify how long the animal has had non-wild parentage.
A F7 linebred fish crossed with a 12 generations (removed from the wild) outcrossed fish will give you F1 fry.

These numbers are primarily for scientists testing the inheritance of genetic traits, not to justify a price increase on a hard to find animal. An animal that would have a truly high F number would be very inbred and probably not be very healthy to begin with. As a note, a W/C fish is an F1 to its still wild parents. These can be very misleading to a hobbyist. I'm glad someone actually asked this question.

So YOU are F1 to your parents. If you marry your sister, your kids are F2. Otherwise they are F1 also.

Just on the "bull dog nose" point, I have a male loricarid with this defect that is currently spawning. Let's see what the fry look like...

Jools