Juvenile tiger shovelnose

El Gordo · Post by **El Gordo** » 14 Aug 2003, 07:09

I recently purchased a 4" tiger shovelnose and presently he is the only fish in a 110 gallon tank. I lost an adult jardini arrowana a few weeks back, so I am just restocking the tank with juvenile agressive fish. I had a large tiger shovelnose that was approx. 20" long and he was very active, but this little guy is the opposite. I have only seen him eat bloodworms and I'm not sure how nocturnal this species is, but he is very docile during the day. Any food suggestions and is this behavior normal?

Post by **Silurus** » 14 Aug 2003, 10:14

It's probably still settling in, hence the reticence (catfishes are nocturnal after all). As for food, tiger shovelnoses are not too picky and meaty foods like sinking pellets should also be taken.

El Gordo · Post by **El Gordo** » 17 Aug 2003, 05:29

I have also noticed another peculiar activity that I am unsure whether it is normal with this Tiger Shovelnose. He will occasionally swim straight up parallel to the side glass for approx. 1/2 hour and then back to the bottom. Is this normal?

catfishcrazy · Post by **catfishcrazy** » 17 Aug 2003, 10:44

My two S.limas do this too,i dont think its anything to worry about.Thats the trouble with shovelnoses,there is so little information on them available that any behaviour slightly out of the ordinary and we instantly think someting is wrong with them.When one of mine started hanging vertical in the water with its head down i thought the worst but finally found that that is the fishes preffered hunting position.

coelacanth · Post by **coelacanth** » 17 Aug 2003, 19:23

El Gordo wrote:I recently purchased a 4" tiger shovelnose and presently he is the only fish in a 110 gallon tank.

What size aquarium do you eventually plan to get for this fish?

El Gordo · Post by **El Gordo** » 17 Aug 2003, 19:35

I plan on maintaining this fish in my 110 gallon tank.

mallemalle · Post by **mallemalle** » 17 Aug 2003, 21:32

i would say that there is missing a 1 or an 0 on the size of your tank, this fish is going to outgrow the 110g tank..

Malle

coelacanth · Post by **coelacanth** » 18 Aug 2003, 00:35

mallemalle wrote:i would say that there is missing a 1 or an 0 on the size of your tank, this fish is going to outgrow the 110g tank..

Yup, by a lo-o-o-n-g way. A fish that reaches over a metre in the wild should reach this size in captivity, if cared for correctly. So the aquarium should be somewhere around 4 metres long, by 1.5 m wide by 1.2 m high as a minimum to allow it any sort of swimming room.

Chrysichthys · Post by **Chrysichthys** » 19 Aug 2003, 15:22

El Gordo wrote:I have also noticed another peculiar activity that I am unsure whether it is normal with this Tiger Shovelnose. He will occasionally swim straight up parallel to the side glass for approx. 1/2 hour and then back to the bottom. Is this normal?

My Sorubim lima does this. I have read that they hang vertically to conceal themself in reeds.

Chrysichthys · Post by **Chrysichthys** » 19 Aug 2003, 15:26

mallemalle wrote:i would say that there is missing a 1 or an 0 on the size of your tank, this fish is going to outgrow the 110g tank..

They grow very slowly, though. Not as impractical as the South American Red tail.

Caol_ila · Post by **Caol_ila** » 19 Aug 2003, 15:46

Slow growth just pushes the problem further down the road...what in 3 years? Hope its gonna die or throw it in a river?

coelacanth · Post by **coelacanth** » 19 Aug 2003, 19:26

Caol_ila wrote:Slow growth just pushes the problem further down the road...what in 3 years? Hope its gonna die or throw it in a river?

Indeed! There is nowhere for TSNs to go whether they take 1 year or 3 years to reach a size where they pose a problem. Very few people have the will or the resources to create an enclosure that is measured in the thousands of gallons.

FatCat · Post by **FatCat** » 19 Aug 2003, 20:01

sounds like a good time for a fish fry to me

Post by **Silurus** » 19 Aug 2003, 21:28

And very good eating, too, from my experiences in Manaus.

El Gordo · Post by **El Gordo** » 22 Aug 2003, 04:08

Most of these replys are somewhat comical. I have had tiger shovelnoses for years with no ill effects. I agree that these fish do grow large but so do red tail cats, pangasius cats and I am not aware of too many people housing a minimum of 1000 gallon tank in their homes to care for these monsters.. I have had lima shovelnoses and I am aware that these fish swim vertical, but I have never noticed tigers doing this. It sounds like most people think that I should stock my 110 gallon tank with 2 guppies and an air powered treasure chest for decoration.

RogerMcAllen · Post by **RogerMcAllen** » 22 Aug 2003, 04:31

I personally think that the eating idea is not too bad. The fish can be fairly humanely put down by quickly cutting the head off with a sharp knife. This is what I plan to do with my channel cats if they become too large for my pond and cannot find a wild home for them.

S. Allen · Post by **S. Allen** » 22 Aug 2003, 06:15

well, there's a big difference between a foot long lima catfish and a 5 foot TSN... I've got a 90 gallon with 3 stingrays, and a tigrinus and I realize that's an unacceptable home for them at adult size, all are at about half their adult size and I am doing an indoor pond for them at the very soonest possible moment. Also planned for the pond are a juruense and a niger, but even these monsters only hit 3 feet, so an 8 or 10 foot wide pond is not out of the question.

TSN are one of the few fish I don't think should be available to the general public, redtails too.

I don't know of anyone on this board who's currently trying to keep either of the fish in anything other than a custom tank of great size 1000 gallons or so, or a pond. Most redtails are destined for stunted growth and early death... as are most TSN, firewood cats, and many others who have neither the pricetag or the rareness factor to protect them from those who can't properly house them.

I never will forget seeing a 2.5 foot red tail crashing around the LFS 180"Donation tank"... even at that size, he looked cramped a bit. Trey's a sucker to take those giants in.

PS... I've never been able to accept the thought of eating something I raised... I let others raise and kill my food. ;)

Caol_ila · Post by **Caol_ila** » 22 Aug 2003, 07:51

Hi!

Ill leave that guppy/chest thing uncommented as we all know that isnt serious conversation.

What i noticed is that adult monsters always scare unaware people. Its a difference if you see a bunch of 30 cam balas shooting around a 150 cm tank or a nice shoal of babys. Or a 50 cm gibbiceps stuffed into a 500 litre tank.

2 days ago i prevented a guy at a poor lfs from buying a A.adonis for his 1 meter tank...he instead went home with a clown pleco and all were happy...

I also made the mistake to buy 2 limas and underestimate their growth...big one is around 27 cm now...luckily i found a buyer with a 1000 litre tank.

catfishcrazy · Post by **catfishcrazy** » 22 Aug 2003, 14:48

The trouble is that although a 110 gallon tank looks big once you have 3 foot catfish living in it it becomes a very small prison cell,while no one is suggesting you stock the tank with 2 guppies you should seriously think whether it is fair to keep a fish that can grow to four feet in a tank with a length of 5 feet long (or six but then it wont be wide enough either).The biggest shovel nose type catfish that can be catered for by the average hobbiest is the S.lima and even these require tanks of at least 100 gallons once full grown,the bigger species are only really suitable for public aquaria or those who can afford large indoor ponds.

coelacanth · Post by **coelacanth** » 22 Aug 2003, 21:39

El Gordo wrote:Most of these replys are somewhat comical. I have had tiger shovelnoses for years with no ill effects

Define ill effects. To you or to the fish? If the fish failed to live for it's potential 20-year+ lifespan, or grow to the expected adult size in excess of a metre, then I would find it hard to say that there were no ill effects. Fish in captivity should have the ability to express normal behavioural patterns to as great a degree as possible, and to reach their full growth and lifespan potential. These are elements of basic guidelines set down by the zoo community, which have been developed through a lot of discussion and consideration undertaken by many knowledgable people. If anyone thinks they know better then I'd be delighted to look at the research and references used to come to this conclusion.

I agree that these fish do grow large but so do red tail cats, pangasius cats and I am not aware of too many people housing a minimum of 1000 gallon tank in their homes to care for these monsters

And how many of these reach their full potential?
I have lost count of the number of times I have advised people who contact me not to buy a catfish that will outgrow their resources and abilities, and then 9 months down the line get back in touch with me hoping I can help them with a problem of their own making. I think many of these would have been better off with a trophy in a case rather than a living organism that deserves ethical consideration, as there is obviously no desire to enjoy the fish for what it actually is.

It sounds like most people think that I should stock my 110 gallon tank with 2 guppies and an air powered treasure chest for decoration.

No, but the reason people keep Catfish is because of their unique appearance and behaviour when compared to other aquarium fish. If a fish has no opportunity to show this behaviour, or demonstrate why it has the appearance that so fascinates us, then what's the point?

Post by **Barbie** » 23 Aug 2003, 01:47

Actually, I got the impression that they think you should responsibly care for the fish that you purchased, but that was just my take on it. I've never understood the mentality that makes people justify keeping fish in a glass box they can't even turn around comfortably in, and I guess this thread isn't going to help me, at this rate.

Barbie

aquaholic · Post by **aquaholic** » 25 Aug 2003, 16:40

El Gordo,
They are quite nocturnal at this size and during the day will usually hole up under a ceramic half pot or driftwood, hardly moving during the day (or when lights are on). At night they are extremely active and voracous hunters, finding even surface hugging guppies, live black worms hiding under stones, frozen bloodworm etc. Don't put in too much food as I don't think they will know when to stop eating.

Unusual signs would be constant mid water swimming during the day or head down-tail up off the ground shimmying on the spot. It's a clear indication something is wrong or one is getting sick should you see this happen. Watch out for any fungal/bacterial infections since they can really throw themselves about and bruise/damage themselves internally too.

Food is not that critical. They will readily eat frozen bloodworm, small pieces of fish fillet, live worms, live small fish and even shrimp pellets. Try to get a small stomach bulge in each fish with a one day fast per week.

00 MooRRii 00 · Post by **00 MooRRii 00** » 31 Aug 2003, 12:10

Where to begin...

First i'd like to ask you a simple question, why? why are you practically torturing this fish to death? why do you think its acceptable? Sorry to sound like a nag but this really does irritate me. I really don't understand your mentality, so if other people do it it's ok for you to do it? is that what you are saying?

I have my TSN in a 8x3 with a few other large catfish, ad the TSN is 32", and beleive it or not this fish is less than 2years old. My TSN looks kinda cramped in a 8x3 which is FAR bigger then a 110! What are you doing if you dont have the space dont buy the fish its simple.

How about i lock you in a closet and feed you some low quality fish food, would you like that?

Post by **Dinyar** » 31 Aug 2003, 14:18

I have a slightly different take on the issue of keeping a big fish in a small tank. Yes, of course it's abuse, no question about that.

But big fw fish all over the world are severely threatened by habitat loss and other forms of human pressure. These threats derive in large part from the fact that local communities see little economic value in these fish.

Now if we could get those proverbial "hormonally challenged young adults" to shell out big bucks for the privilege of ritually torturing select specimens of large fish species, and if we could then translate these big bucks at retail into a few more bucks to the local collector, this could conceivably motivate local communities to better husband a valuable resource and thus make a small contribution to species conservation.

Dinyar

S. Allen · Post by **S. Allen** » 31 Aug 2003, 18:05

;)

"We could put her up in a cheap hotel room, charge the cops $50 a head to beat her into submission... Hell, she's strong, she'll hold her own... It's straight economics."- HST's Fear and Loathing... semi-edied for content and pertinent material.

;) my theory on this came up in the thread where someone in Oz was going to pay $600 for a shovelnose. No one pays that kind of $ for a fish they're gonna abuse, or if they do... either too rich to think or totally nuts. Even in the states larger fish ought to come with a larger price. This is, in my case the way things are, I have expensive tastes. But, there are the $5 red tailed cats, oscars, and tiger shovelnoses, the $1.99 tinfoil barbs... TF barbs and oscars can fairly easily be accomodated, but... how many do you think really are?

Sil, you remember thos pics from the fish market in manaus you took? you happen to ask a price on those B. juruense? my guess is like cheap for a 2 foot plus specimen, just without a head and innards... I'd have paid 10 times that for one that size... alive of course. Those of us who keep food fishes would probably turn green at the price they go for when they're destined for a pot of soup or a skillet.

Post by **Silurus** » 31 Aug 2003, 18:51

Sil, you remember thos pics from the fish market in manaus you took? you happen to ask a price on those B. juruense?

While I never did ask about the prices of the fish I saw in Manaus, I did purchase some good-sized Hemibagrus wyckii in markets in Sumatra and Borneo for something like 8000 rupiah (about 95 cents US) per fish (even at that price, I was probably getting fleeced by the fishmonger, since I did not bother to bargain hard). Well, considering that specimens of about the same size here go for about $100, you can do the math.

crookedantler · Post by **crookedantler** » 01 Sep 2003, 18:30

I have a juvinile TSN and he loves to eat feeder guppies and bloodworms.I had one for years and he grew to about 30" and lived just fine in a 265 gal. tank with a large Clown Knife and a Black Arowanna.I would probably still have him had he not leaped out of the tank.

mokmu · Post by **mokmu** » 01 Sep 2003, 21:30

crookedantler wrote:I have a juvinile TSN and he loves to eat feeder guppies and bloodworms.I had one for years and he grew to about 30" and lived just fine in a 265 gal. tank with a large Clown Knife and a Black Arowanna.I would probably still have him had he not leaped out of the tank.

Even at that size a tank, your TSN probably found it too small and too cramped for comfort. Your TSN probably decided to do a harakiri. No fish just leaps out of the tank for the fun of it. Something must be wrong or must have spooked it. People just don't get it.

PeacockBass · Post by **PeacockBass** » 02 Sep 2003, 10:47

People just don't get it.

I agree. I think my 2000 gallon indoor pond is still a little small for a full grown adult TSN.

coelacanth · Post by **coelacanth** » 02 Sep 2003, 16:36

Dinyar wrote:Now if we could get those proverbial "hormonally challenged young adults" to shell out big bucks for the privilege of ritually torturing select specimens of large fish species, and if we could then translate these big bucks at retail into a few more bucks to the local collector, this could conceivably motivate local communities to better husband a valuable resource and thus make a small contribution to species conservation.

Trouble is I think that many of these youngsters are now farm bred, in some cases I'm pretty sure what we get are just surplus fingerlings from foodfish aquaculture, so this could result in the opposite of the desired effect by enouraging further aquaculture in sensitive areas.
There are plenty enough small aquarium-suitable species whereby if we in the affluent world stopped complaining about a Â£ or $ here or there more, this could result in greater return to the collectors and more progress towards sustainability, without the potential negative publicity that abandoned or mistreated big fish could attract to the aquarium hobby.

Juvenile tiger shovelnose

Juvenile tiger shovelnose

Juvenile Tiger Shovelnose

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Juvenile TSN

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