Which One Is Better Between Sand & Small Gravel !!!

[Callichthyidae]

Hello! Again Everyone

I have a question again for my Corydoras. I really want to know that Which one is much better for keeping Corydoras healthy between Fine Sand and Small Gravel. Please! let me know. I really want to know very much because I've heard from some aqurium store using Fine Sand can get bad bacteria very fast and can easily become toxic water that cause dead Corydoras. Is that true? Please! let me know if someone who knows something about this. It will be greatly appreciated.

Bunthid or Max

[MatsP]

Thick layers of sand can (and will) indeed get a buildup of gases under it, some of which can be hydogen sulphid, which is toxic and smells of rotten eggs. However, with corys, and as long as it's not a thick layer, then sand is better - the corys will dig around in the substrate, and a smaller grain substrate is better in this regard. So as long as you keep the layer of sand relatively thin, say 2cm (3/4") or less, it should be fine.

Obviously, sand does come in all manner of grain sizes, from very fine, that is smaller grains than table salt, to fairly coarse types that are borderline to be called gravel [1]. The coarser the sand is, the better resists the anaerobic activity that makes it go toxic. But for corys, fine sand is great. Since the corys stir the sand anyways, it's less likely to go bad. Still, make sure it's not to thick a layer.

[1] What we call "gravel" in the aquatics hobby is technically often sand, as the technical definition of sand is "anything that passes through a 6mm(0.25") sieve", so grains up to about 6mm is "sand". In the aquatics hobby, I'd say anything above 2mm (3/32") is classified as "gravel".

--
Mats

[sunfish]

Definitely fine sand (grainsize <1mm). If you can, get sand from a DIY store and NOT the special "aquarium sand", as the latter a) is much more expensive and b) in most cases qualifies as fine gravel. Make sure that you get quartz sand, i.e. sand that does not contain lime.

And the thing about the bad bacteria build-up is a myth, if managed correctly even thick layers of sand will cause no problems. I've had a 2-2.5 inch layer of fine sand in my tanks for years and never had any problems. You just have to treat sand completely different (compared to gravel).

[ayrtoninst]

If you prefer to opt for sand, I have found that I can have quite a deep layer of about 1" in my Cory tank without having gas pocket problems.

There is one reason for this - my faithful army of Banjo catfish They are constantly creating sandstorms during lights out, constantly stirring up the substrate. It is truly wonderful to watch

[MatsP]

Definitely fine sand (grainsize <1mm). If you can, get sand from a DIY store and NOT the special "aquarium sand", as the latter a) is much more expensive and b) in most cases qualifies as fine gravel. Make sure that you get quartz sand, i.e. sand that does not contain lime.

Indeed, very good advice.

And the thing about the bad bacteria build-up is a myth, if managed correctly even thick layers of sand will cause no problems. I've had a 2-2.5 inch layer of fine sand in my tanks for years and never had any problems. You just have to treat sand completely different (compared to gravel).

If you have enough fish that dig, then it's not a problem. If not, you have to manually stir the sand. I certainly have had situations where there's been the smell of rotten eggs.

But if you do things right, it shouldn't be a problem.

--
Mats

[ayrtoninst]

I agree with the 'where to buy' sand issue.

I have always bought children's playpit sand from somewhere like Argos. Less than £3 a bag and each bag contains enough sand for a decent layer in a 4' tank.

[Shane]

Max,
This is not really an "either/or" issue. Nature does not practice grainsize quality control and natural substrates where I have collected corys (Venezuela, Colombia and Brazil) are always a mix up of various diameters of sand/gravel in differing concentrations. By mixing 3-4 sand and small gravel sizes (with sand comprising 70 percent or more of the mix) you will create a habitat that encourages the fishes to move about looking here and there over the substrate. It will also look far more natural than a boring uniform substrate.
-Shane

[Carp37]

My own experiment with sand and a growing on-tank for juvenile Brochis splendens/Corydoras similis ended with disaster- I used about 1" (2.5 cm) of sand and stirred the substrate by hand (I thought pretty well) every day, but lost all 6 of the similis and one of the Brochis in a four day period. Most people I know who use sand successfully either use a much thinner layer, or planted tanks.

Another tank for growing out 'Geophagus' iporangensis didn't have the same problems, although they're pretty good at stirring the substrate!

[RIPbiglad]

I have had sand in my tank for nearly a year now and the cories do seem to prefer it to the gravel with no problems. Although it does look dirty all the time as the poop doesnt get buried like it does with gravel

[sunfish]

My own experiment with sand and a growing on-tank for juvenile Brochis splendens/Corydoras similis ended with disaster- I used about 1" (2.5 cm) of sand and stirred the substrate by hand (I thought pretty well) every day, but lost all 6 of the similis and one of the Brochis in a four day period.

In many cases (especially in a tank where food is over-abundant) problems occur BECAUSE of the stirring. You get problems because organic matter gets burried and is "eaten" by anaerobic bacteria. Your Geophagus not only stir the sand but actually clean it by filtering out edible (organic) stuff. However, when you stir the substrate you will actually induce loads of organic matter into the deeper (anaerobic) layers, that would normally never have gotten there.

For tanks with juvenile cories (and loads of food) I suggest using only a very thin layer of sand that gets removed every time you clean.

[Richard B]

My feeling is sand is essential for corys, but only the thinnest of layers - in fact Hans George Evers at this year's CSG convention begged everyone to ensure corys were only kept on sand as it is the only substrate they are found on in the wild. A little bit of gravel mixed in is no bad thing but round-grain sand (not sharp edged stuff) is a must methinks

[jeff@zina.com]

I've used a number of substrates from bare bottom to pebbles. I now normally use about 1/4" - 1/2" of sand, either pool sand or a darker/black sand from a fish store. For one thing, the fish get less beat up sifting through the substrate. I also have fewer fry losses from infections, it seems that sitting on a bare bottom allows the waste to attack the fry. The only time I use a thicker substrate is a planted tank, and usually that's a laterite/fluorite/gravel mix for about 3/4 of the bottom area, 4" or so thick, tapering into a 3/4" thick sand area that is clear of plants (at least to start...).

Jeff

[apistomaster]

I use Coralife FloraBase in a less than 1/4 inch layer in nearly all my tanks including Corydoras. It is about 1/8 inch particle size, rounded and a soft material. It can be used in thick sand bed if you wish to grow a lot of plants. It has been very "Corydoras friendly" material but it is expensive compared to play sand or pool filter sands but there is never an issue with poor water circulation through thicker layers with it.

Here it is in a thin layer in my Corydroas hastatus breeding tank, a permanent breeding set up.

[nj2tou]

hi all,

Hope it's ok I jump in on this thread. I currently have two smallish tanks set up - a 6 gallon eclipse and a 5 gallon walmart knock off of the eclipse. They were both set up as betta tanks about 3-4 years ago. I have a betta in each tank along with several cories in each. Well, I HAD a betta in each tank - I accidentally killed one of them when moving. He was beautiful. I'm so mad at myself...

Anyway, I have 4 pandas and one peppered in one tank and two metae, 2 peppered, one long fin peppered and two otos in the other. The ones in the 6 gallon eclipse, while they seemed to be doing fine, were losing their barbels. One even had NO barbels at all! I think it was because it is a planted tank with eco-complete and I think the substrate was too rough on them. I got some very smooth gravel and very gradually added it to the tank when I would do my weekly water changes and it really seemed to help. The other tank, while also planted, had very smooth regular gravel as substrate and those fish never seemed to have this problem.

Well, I recently decided that I wanted to get a bigger tank and combine all my fishies. Since I only have one betta now I don't have to worry about which one to put in the new tank. I got a 15 gallon tank and decided I wanted to use sand as the substrate. It will be planted as well, but with plants that don't really need planting. Java fern, java moss, anacharis and a few anubias that will be attached to driftwood. I have the tank running and kept the sand to a depth of about 1/2 an inch. I ordered the plants online and I'm waiting for them to arrive. I've got the driftwood soaking, to get some of the tannins out - boy, did it turn the bucket water brown the first couple of days! I'm not using the plants I have now, as I got some that had snails on them and can NOT get rid of the dang things, no matter how hard I try. I do NOT want them in my new tank, but I don't want to use the chemical stuff to get rid of them however.

I'm nervous about using sand for the first time. My fishies are doing very well right now and I don't want to lose any of them by screwing up. Is there anything I should be aware of or make sure of so as to NOT screw up? Oh, and don't worry, I'll be cycling the tank. Is the layer of sand thin enough to keep the anerobic bacteria down? I probably have to be more careful about not overfeeding. Anything else? Thanks!

[MatsP]

If you have some corys in the tank, 1/2" of sand should definitely not be a problem.

As to cycling the new tank: Would it be possible to move the filters from one of the existing tanks? If so, you could avoid cycling alltogether - just set the new tank up, add an existing filter and the fish from that tank. Then gradually (two-three at a time) move the other fish to the new tank.

--
Mats

[sunfish]

Actually, snails are good. Well, not all, but MTS (Malaysian Trumpet Snail, Melanoides tubercularia) are a very good thing in a tank with sand. They really help to avoid extensive "bad areas" within the sand. And as ist the case with mose snails, they will only become a problem when you overfeed.

You might want to rethink combining all your Cories, as peppered and panda can hybridize. Have a look here:
http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... 29&start=0

[nj2tou]

I can't really move the filter from one tank to the other, as my small tanks are Eclipse tanks that have the filter in the hood. My new tank has a HOB power filter. Also, I'm afraid of introducing these pesty pond snails into the new tank - some snails have actually gotten up into the filter and laid eggs and all. I've kinda let it go... I want to start fresh. I may wrap the filter pad in some fine mesh, in case there are some tiny baby snails in it, and dip it in the tank for a while, but I also got some bio spira stuff to add to the tank. I'm in no rush to move anyone anyway. I'll probably put just the betta in there first. I'll be keeping the otos in one of the other tanks for a while as I know they really need an established tank to thrive. They're doing great - nice fat bellies and all.

As for mixing the cories, yeah, I saw that thread. The hybrids are really cool looking, but I totally understand the "why not to" issues. If they did breed, believe me, they wouldn't be going anywhere, as I don't know anyone that I would trust to give a guppy to, never mind a hybrid catfish! lol! Besides, I think the shoals will be big enough that they'll have enough of "their own kind" to breed with if so inclined. I'll be getting more of each once the tank is fully set up and cycled.

thanks!

[apistomaster]

You could also run a new sponge filter in one of your existing tanks for 3 weeks then move it to the new tank and everything should be good to go.

I have kept Corydoras in tanks using EcoComplete substrate without having Corydoras develop any barbel loss or abrasion. It isn't always the substrate. Sometimes a bacterial infection will result in barbel loss. I actually sieve a substrate from a local creek which is essentially identical to EcoComplete so it is free and it works well for most fish. There are some traces of calcareous minerals present in it that make it less suitable for soft acid water tanks but it is fine in tanks where I use my tap water which has 340 ppm TDS and a pH of 7.4. EcoComplete states on the packaging that it will do the same thing; elevating the TDS slightly. The material is primarily made up of rounded particles of basalt. It is a dark substrate and some fish like wild Discus will look darker over it than I like but other fish like Cardinals really stand out over it. Plant growth has been extremely good in this locally collected material. Only 15 miles away and free makes it an attractive substrate. It does take some work to sit there and sieve out the over sized rocks but the end result is mostly particles sizes 1/8" to some up to less than1/4 inch. It works out to be about 80% small and 20% less than 1/4". This photo shows Heckel Discus over my collected basalt substrate. I later changed to quartz so the fish lightened their color.

[PlecoCrazy]

I have used playground sand for many years with success. I recently tried out a product by carib-sea which I liked a lot. Its much more expensive however but the color is much more appealing and the grain sizes are perfect.

http://caribsea.com/pages/products/inst ... arium.html

I got the sunset gold version and liked it alot. Too expensive to use on all of my tanks but I liked it alot.

-Trent

[apistomaster]

Trent,
Thanks for posting that CaribSea link.
You chose an attractive sand, more natural looking than Torpedo Beach although everyone says the sand is white in the main fish areas in SA I have trouble believing it could be whiter than pure quartz like Torpedo Beach sand. I see the particle size is 2 mm which is the size i consider ideal. Not too fine for oxygenated water to reach but plenty fine enough for the fish and plants.

[nj2tou]

Yes, thanks for that link. I got the Marine Sand - I hope that's ok. It's very fine and felt soft to the touch. I hope it's not TOO fine. I know that it's not good for planted tanks, but my plants won't really be planted anyway, so figured it would be fine in that regard. The anubias and java fern will be attached to driftwood.

As for Malaysian Trumpet Snails, yeah, I know they're great burrowers and are good for churning the substrate, but I reeeeeeeeeally don't want to deal with snails...

I can't wait for my plants to get here so I can finish setting up and at least get the betta in there. He's a VERY mellow fellow and has never bothered any of my other fish. My very first betta, who died of old age a couple of months ago was VERY agressive and ATE the oto I put in there with him.

If this sand is ok, what's the best way to go about cleaning it? I figured gently swishing a suction cleaner above it to get up the detrius without sucking up too much sand would be good and then gently pushing the tube into it up a bit to keep it from compacting.

thanks for all your help and suggestions!

[apistomaster]

CaribSea sells mostly sand only suitable for reef tanks so you have to be careful what you buy. Any that is made of aragonite, crushed coral or shells is no good for a fresh water tank for soft water fish. Their Torpedo Beach is white quartzite and their black sand is actually crushed slag, a form of crude glass but these are the only 2 they sell that I personally know to be safe for soft, fresh water aquariums. Some in the link also appeared to be made from minerals I know to be safe but to be 100% sure I would have to have a sample. If CaribSea actually states the stuff is for fresh water then I would trust them.

[PlecoCrazy]

Here is what's on the front of the bag. I don't know why they don't put this on their website.



-Trent

[apistomaster]

Trent,
They clearly labeled it a safe for fresh water fish. That was all i wanted you to be sure of. Like I said, they sell a lot of reef tank substrates. Many people have mistakenly bought and used them then had to toss it out when they began to figure out why their fish were not doing well.

[PlecoCrazy]

Off to leave the pc and clean some fish tanks. About the only place I could find it was at petsolutions. they have four of the vareties available and free freight if you get $99 or more and its on sale. Their zoomed pictures are actually better than carib-sea's site. Still not cheap though.

http://www.petsolutions.com/Default.asp ... D=18420832

[nj2tou]

Aaaaaaaaahhhhhh!!!!!!!! I'm such a moron!!! I could kick myself! I said I didn't want snails in my new tank, got all new stuff, including plants, and what do I go and do??? Put a heater from my quarantine tank in there withOUT disinfecting it. I washed it off and I didn't SEE anything on it, but apparently there WAS something on it because what did I see last night?? Some teeny tiny SNAILS!!! AAAAAHHHHH!!! I almost didn't notice them, as they're so tiny right now. if they're just limpets, I don't mind as they don't reproduce much at all, but if they're #$%^&ing pond snails I'll shoot myself!

I'm seriously debating dumping it out and starting all over again, as I can't deal with pond snails. Fortunately, I only had the sand and water in the tank, as I was waiting for my plants to arrive and my driftwood tannin level to drop - the pieces have been soaking in a bucket for over a week. I have enough sand to replace what's in the tank, but should I throw it out or just let it dry out and hope that kills the snails if there are any in there? Is there a way to safely disinfect the sand? Would very hot water kill them? I worry that some got in the filter too, so I'll disinfect it and let that dry out.

This sucks.

[apistomaster]

Very hot water should kill all the snails and any hidden eggs but you may need to use a large heater or two smaller heaters to raise and hold the temperature of at least 105*F for several days. Snails hide in the splits in your used aquarium wood, your heaters as you have found and any other accessories which have been in contact with aquariums with snails. Sponge filters are a common route of reintroduction for me.

I use bleach because it is a quicker way to go and I am confident in my chlorine neutralization techniques but I use that method before I actually have set the tank back up. Pond Snails or their eggs can't tolerate that much heat very long. What few dead snails are present will provide some of the food for the bacteria involved with the cycling process so there is a small silver lining. The same applies for bleached substrates and wood that is reused. The dead snails can make a final contribution to the newly set up tank.
Using 3-5 times the normal amount of dechlorination chemicals will neutralize any residual chlorine providing you do a good fresh water rinse first.

[PlecoCrazy]

I hear ya. Been there done almost the same thing. If you don't want to start over put an assassin snail or two in there and those pond snails won't get out of control. You'll barely notice that you have any at all.

[apistomaster]

Hey Trent,

Do you know a reliable supplier at a fair price for the Antemone helena AKA Assassin Snails?

I have one particular tank with a Pond Snail problems and it is a black water type environment with a pH of 4.5 and a TDS >40 ppm and dropping which is in itself a hostile environment for Pond Snails although they persist even though I can see the low pH is eating away the Ca CO3 from the older portions of their shells and their shells are being constructed with thinner than normal walls.

My understanding about the normal environment for the Assassin Snails is that it tends to be the rocky beaches within zones of tidal influx. This environment implies the water chemistry is likely to be at least mildly saline and with a pH well above 7.0 and fairly high TDS.
Any evidence these snails can survive in soft acid water long enough to do any good?

[nj2tou]

Thanks guys! I saw assassin snails SOMEWHERE... I live on Long Island and it might have been Aquarium Adventure in Carle Place. I can't imagine Petco or Petsmart having them (the only other places I was this weekend), but you never know! I actually got some Panda cories at Pet Supplies Plus - who generally have atrocious tanks - so you never know!

I think it was on the Monster Fishkeepers site that I found it, (maybe it was here??) but a good way to disinfect plants and such before you put them in the tank is to use potassium permanganate. It's what Jungle Clear Water is made of. You put it in a bucket and super dose it, making the water a nice magenta color and let them soak. They say leave them 15 or 20 minutes, but I left my anacharis for over an hour the other night and it's fine. I do a mega dose of Amquel+ and Novaqua after a good rinse. I need to check for snail corpses later on. I don't want to use that on my sand, as it will stain it, so I'll probably stick it in a bucket and use the scalding hot water out of my tap to let it soak for a while. My only real concern now is the filter. Would totally letting it dry out work? I would run hot water through it first or maybe a bleach solution run through, but would eggs survive if it's just dried out?

Since it's just sand and water right now, I'll probably just dump it out and start again. Don't know if I can get the tank over 105 degrees or not. Hopefully I'll kill anything that's in whatever crevices there are in the filter - lord knows THAT could be an issue!

This is such a pain! I really wanted to get it going this weekend - my plants have arrived, my driftwood is almost done and I should be getting a few Pandas today.(Yes, they'll be quarantined first) grrrrrrrrrrrr!!!!!