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Newbie's first adventure (Ontario, Canada)

Posted: 30 Sep 2009, 07:26
by L number Banana
Don't know what I'm doing regarding collecting etc but I'm having fun!

This is from Kingston Ontario, 44°14′N 76°30′W. I'm trying to find Madtoms but think they're mostly extinct in this area so I'm looking for Whatever. Don't have the courage to try for the "Mudcats, bullheads, Channelcats" yet but after I get some steel-toed wading booties, I'll try. I don't really know what's actually in the waters here but I'll be finding out, the local fishermen just use the common terms and they're all over the map, blue cat, yellow belly, mudcats etc.
Here's part of the reason why I think Madtoms were here : http://penbay.org/cof/cof_1901_12.pdf Other catfish are listed as well. The other reason is that the bait shops have recognized my photos of madtoms and say that they do show up once in a while. Don't know what kind.
This is the water system I started in http://www.rideau-info.com/canal/ecolog ... ology.html

First location I tried was a public fishing area that is part of the trail but collection is allowed. I used a large net on a long pole because I was by myself at the time. The water's very deep in the centre, surrounded by cattails and home to several endangered duck species.
Didn't get a thing aside from some nice plants that I recently paid $4 for :roll:
Here's the view from under the bridge.
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I followed the trail to the CN Railway overpass and dipped the net in there.
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Got myself a fish! Just one but it's my first. It's a Central Mudminnow -Umbra limi
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I guess they get to about 4 inches and are an ambush predator that sit with their tail in the mud.

No other critters here, except ducks, the ones in the photo above are Mallard Ducks, Anas platyrhynchos. Stunning green heads on the males.

Moved into the conservation proper where no collecting is allowed but it was a pleasant way to travel to my next stop.
Wouldn't you like a root like this for your tank? It an oak tree.
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The next stop was at another railway crossing where there had been a oil spill two years ago. Wasn't hopeful for anything here.
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First dip and the net was full of critters but no fish. Here's a crayfish with a baby, some people call them Crawdaddies. :lol:
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A common frog, maybe a Northern Leopard Frog but I still have to find my frog book to be sure. As I leaned over the bucket to take the pic, he jumped out and scared the hoo-haas out of me. Didn't drop the camera but the cars going by must have wondered...
Also there's something there that looks like ticks or fleas - my socks were tucked into my pants so no Lyme disease worries, I checked myself over anyway.
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So the good news here is that there are frog etc after an oil spill but no easy catch of catfish. There were also many beetles, Dragonflies and their larvae, birds, many more frogs and under every rock there was tons of crayfish. I couldn't see any evidence of a spill having occurred there. I go by there all the time and I know that both blue and green herons fish there as well. The green heron is the smaller of the two birds that uses bait to catch fish.

That's all I could get between rain showers but now the seed has been planted and I'll be buying some waders and a better net or bribe the Big Guy to jiggle some rocks upstream :beardy:
That's the end of the fishing bit. Continue below for the plants bit if you're into that.



Here's a few plants that are kind of boring here but are interesting in their uses.

This is called a Cattail, extremely common but maybe not where some members live. The real name is Typha sp., known to many as Bulrush and some southerners as Corndogs because of the shape of the seed head.
The seedheads look like this and are about 10-13 inches long and feel like velvet.
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Once the seedhead is ripe it opens up and the "stuffing" has been used historically and now in winter clothing, mattresses and pillows. It was used as 'down' in baby's beds and in moccasins. It was also used as stuffing for lifejackets in the same manner as the next plant.
The roots are edible and taste a bit like a potato or maybe a yam (Sweet potato)Wonder if the larger catfish use it as such? It also makes lovely tinder to start fires and studies are being done to use the plant to make ethanol since almost no care is needed to grow them.
Here's a seedhead that's already open.
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This is another 'weed' that's quite wonderful and grows everywhere here. Similar plants grow in other parts of the world too, about 140 species. It's called Milkweed or Butterfly Plant, Asclepias syriaca from our friend Linnaeus. It's the summer host plant for the wonderful Monarch Butterfly. It's called Milkweed because of the sap, which is partly latex. It also has silky seeds inside those capsules that have better insulating qualities than down and are waterproof. It has also been used to make life jackets. The picture of the open seedhead showing the floss turned out blurry but here's the seed capsules.
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Feel free to post pics of your local milkweeds!

Not giving up on the Madtoms yet :thumbsup:

Re: Newbie's first adventure (Ontario, Canada)

Posted: 30 Sep 2009, 08:14
by Shane
Great first foray and you even got a fish! Mudminnows make interesting aquarium residents. I only have experience with Umbra pygmaea, but would like to collect Novumbra sometime when I am visiting Washington State.
Really appreciate all the habitat pics as well.
-Shane

Re: Newbie's first adventure (Ontario, Canada)

Posted: 30 Sep 2009, 11:25
by racoll
Great stuff. Very interesting.

I guess if you are after madtoms you should try some slightly more running water such as a small stream, brook or river. Somewhere with a bit of current.

Re: Newbie's first adventure (Ontario, Canada)

Posted: 30 Sep 2009, 13:37
by andywoolloo
very cool! thanks for sharing! i love the exploration and fish finding posts!! :thumbsup:

Re: Newbie's first adventure (Ontario, Canada)

Posted: 30 Sep 2009, 13:48
by Richard B
Top stuff!!!

Are you anywhere near that place i can't remember, but it is that small group of trees where the monarch buterflys all rest over winter? (there are literally tens, if not hundreds of thousands of them covering the entire trees)

Re: Newbie's first adventure (Ontario, Canada)

Posted: 30 Sep 2009, 14:00
by PlecoCrazy
Sounds like a fun expedition. Around hear is easiest way to find madtoms is too look in pop cans and bottles that are in the river or lake. I would suppose you could probably setup a few cans tied to a rock or something and leave them there a day and come back. You just might have something. The downfall of that though, while your not littering really since you'll be going back the dnr could think different. Keep up the hunt either way. Good Luck!!!

Re: Newbie's first adventure (Ontario, Canada)

Posted: 30 Sep 2009, 14:24
by Shane
The downfall of that though, while your not littering really since you'll be going back the dnr could think different.
You would need to check the local rules, you might not get in trouble for littering, but then get a ticket for using "traps." If traps are OK I can recommend some good ones. Just put them out in the evening and check them the next morning.
-Shane

Re: Newbie's first adventure (Ontario, Canada)

Posted: 30 Sep 2009, 16:22
by Martin S
Yep, these posts are great, though am only just a bit jealous we don't get anything like this to catch over here in the UK.
Martin

Re: Newbie's first adventure (Ontario, Canada)

Posted: 30 Sep 2009, 17:20
by L number Banana
Thanks for your interest everyone - it's very addictive, I've already planned my next one.
Racoll:I guess if you are after madtoms you should try some slightly more running water such as a small stream, brook or river. Somewhere with a bit of current.
It's rained torrents since I was there on the weekend so each of these areas are rushing water now. There's a few areas that have faster moving water all the time, I'll check those out.
Richard B:Are you anywhere near that place i can't remember, but it is that small group of trees where the monarch buterflys all rest over winter? (there are literally tens, if not hundreds of thousands of them covering the entire trees)
We're just the opposite of that area, it's in Central America. The Monarchs fly north and have BBs on those milkweed plants then fly back with the babies to those trees and some are being cut down :-(

PlecoCrazy and Shane,
I completely forgot about checking pop cans! Didn't see any but that helps direct my next venture to a place where litter make be already present. And yes there is laws about using traps for "baitfish". The ministry lists things like minnows and crayfish and the limits/methods allowed for each but madtoms aren't common enough to even make the list.

There's a run-off stream at the very tip of my pie-shaped lot. On paper I own about 12 feet of that stream but it's either rushing water -like now- or very still with frogs and ducks - last week. I'll have to look into that one first as I know there's lots of 'stuff' in that stream. It a waterway that separates a mid-river Island from the mainland but unfortunately part of the Island is now a golf course and the other was used as a city dump in the 60's so it's a "recovering" waterway. We have a massive snapping turtle as a resident and many Eastern Painted Turtles so I don't think the fish population will be very high. I'll be checking though and if traps are allowed, that might be a place to start. Need to find a buddy in the Fisheries dept or the Ministry of Natural resources to find out some more details.

Martin S wrote:
Yep, these posts are great, though am only just a bit jealous we don't get anything like this to catch over here in the UK.
Martin
But you have fish shops that actually have stock and not just goldfish and tetras! Wish I could trade you for a week. And you do have some very nice dark beers too :P

Re: Newbie's first adventure (Ontario, Canada)

Posted: 30 Sep 2009, 17:28
by Richard B
L number Banana wrote: those trees and some are being cut down :-(
Nooooooooooooooo! :ang: It's on my list of things to see (sometime before i croak)

And you do have some very nice dark beers too :P
Oh yessssssssss - hic! :screwy:

Re: Newbie's first adventure (Ontario, Canada)

Posted: 30 Sep 2009, 17:36
by Martin S
L number Banana wrote:But you have fish shops that actually have stock and not just goldfish and tetras! Wish I could trade you for a week.
Deal :wink: :D
L number Banana wrote:And you do have some very nice dark beers too :P
No idea - I'm tee-total (whilst I'm sleeping anyway :lol: ) :foggie:
Martin

Re: Newbie's first adventure (Ontario, Canada)

Posted: 30 Sep 2009, 20:02
by Shane
http://www.basspro.com/webapp/wcs/store ... erralID=NA

Above trap is the "classic." They work well and the offered extension is nice. Big drawback is that you can not exactly fit them into a backpack.

http://www.getprice.com.au/mesh-bait-ca ... 325736.htm

Above is my current favorite (and was a present from Jools). Easy to use, light and folds down to the size of a T Shirt. The mesh is also quite small so good for very small fishes.

http://www.cabelas.com/p-0002258.shtml

I have two of these (the round ones). Utter garbage. I thought the vinyl would make them last longer but for some reason it scares away fish.

http://www.goantiques.com/detail,minnow ... 62760.html

A cool antique bait trap. Might make a better fishroom decoration than an actual trap...

http://www.survivaltopics.com/survival/ ... c-bottles/

How to make a bait trap from 2 liter bottles. These work even better if you use larger bottles. Ideally a large 5 gallon "Alhambra" type plastic water bottle would be ideal for small to medium sized cats.

-Shane

Re: Newbie's first adventure (Ontario, Canada)

Posted: 01 Oct 2009, 20:32
by bronzefry
Nicely done. It's a great feeling getting out there in the mud and muck. I forgot what it felt like to be little again. Sometimes we forget we have treasures hidden in our backyards. This summer, I had to check before mowing the lawn each time-we had a bumper crop of frogs. I became a frog wrangler. My brother was attacked by a mallard sitting on eggs. My niece and nephew saw their first live deer, not in a petting zoo. She looked right at them, then went back into the woods. Just passin' through.
Amanda

Re: Newbie's first adventure (Ontario, Canada)

Posted: 02 Oct 2009, 00:42
by racoll
Martin S wrote:though am only just a bit jealous we don't get anything like this to catch over here in the UK.
Actually, there are some 99 (FishBase) freshwater fish species recorded from the UK. Of course some of these will be rare and unsuccessful introductions, but there are many natives (c. 66) to be found in local waters.

Of interest to the aquarist are several species such as Barbatula barbatula, Cobitis taenia, Gasterosteus aculeatus, Gobio gobio, Gymnocephalus cernua and Phoxinus phoxinus.

These are well worth seeking out in my opinion. :D

Re: Newbie's first adventure (Ontario, Canada)

Posted: 02 Oct 2009, 12:58
by Carp37
Excellent post Tana, and good luck next time.
racoll wrote:Actually, there are some 99 (FishBase) freshwater fish species recorded from the UK. Of course some of these will be rare and unsuccessful introductions, but there are many natives (c. 66) to be found in local waters.

Of interest to the aquarist are several species such as Barbatula barbatula, Cobitis taenia, Gasterosteus aculeatus, Gobio gobio, Gymnocephalus cernua and Phoxinus phoxinus.
I'm not too clear on UK rules regarding collecting (i.e. taking away) fish from areas in the UK. Technically I don't think it's illegal (other than size limits for commercially important species), but it's a bit of a minefield as so much of our available water has landowners selling fishing rights to angling clubs, who take a very dim view of removal of fish (even small ones). You might get away with sticklebacks, bullheads, stone loaches, and possibly minnows, but even bleak and gudgeon I think you may encounter opposition over. I've taken odd small batches of cyprinid fry from rivers in the 1980s and 1990s (which grow into very nice pond fish- chub Leuciscus (spelling?) cephalus, dace Leuciscus leuciscus), minnows (Phoxinus phoxinus, gudgeon Gobio gobio, roach Rutilus rutilus), but with ever-declining fish stocks at the moment I'd feel guilty doing the same now.

Re: Newbie's first adventure (Ontario, Canada)

Posted: 04 Oct 2009, 19:31
by L number Banana
Hey Carp37,

The rules are pretty strict here but at least they're clear on most fish. The only thing that I think is quite often overlooked is dumping water from a collecting bucket. I guess because people can't see the tiniest critters, they just think it's water and dump it anywhere. The fishing manual that you get with your license shows how to bring your own water if you're transporting fish 'overland' and how to properly dispose of unused baitfish.

I ended up with several tadpoles in my bucket, those guys are going back to the same spot on the weekend. My little minnow is not rare here but he's doing well so he may be a keeper. I'll need to get better info with regards to his food though because soon the 'food' that was scooped up with him will be gone. All I found so far is that he's an ambush predator. If I can't find out anything more, he'll have to go back with the tadpoles. :(

Still no luck finding someone that can tell me a definite yes or no with regards to trapping madtoms - if they're still here. But I guess just checking the cans and bottles that I come across would be safe for now. I'm going to be tracking down someone from the university that worked on the diversity project for that waterway but family business has kept me from doing much of anything lately so let's hope for a late frost!

Re: Newbie's first adventure (Ontario, Canada)

Posted: 04 Oct 2009, 19:47
by L number Banana
Bronzefry wrote":
Nicely done. It's a great feeling getting out there in the mud and muck. I forgot what it felt like to be little again. Sometimes we forget we have treasures hidden in our backyards. This summer, I had to check before mowing the lawn each time-we had a bumper crop of frogs. I became a frog wrangler. My brother was attacked by a mallard sitting on eggs. My niece and nephew saw their first live deer, not in a petting zoo. She looked right at them, then went back into the woods. Just passin' through.
Amanda
:lol:
My hubby has become a turtle wrangler for the same reason. It's like looking for little grass-green coins before mowing the lawn. At least it's only once a year so not quite the work of dealing with frogs!
I'm glad your niece and nephew got to see the deer, they're soooo majestic in real life. The first time I found out they were eating my tomatoes, I wanted to scream but after I saw the snacking in real life, I decided to plant more tomatoes :D

Re: Newbie's first adventure (Ontario, Canada)

Posted: 04 Oct 2009, 20:21
by Birger
I ended up with several tadpoles in my bucket, those guys are going back to the same spot on the weekend. My little minnow is not rare here but he's doing well so he may be a keeper. I'll need to get better info with regards to his food though because soon the 'food' that was scooped up with him will be gone. All I found so far is that he's an ambush predator. If I can't find out anything more, he'll have to go back with the tadpoles. :(
To fish and game people this would also be considered a no no and I agree...generally once they are out keep them out (unless of course you are at the waters edge) if you can not keep them then they must be disposed of.

Have you checked with the NANFA people how best to feed this fish?
Still no luck finding someone that can tell me a definite yes or no with regards to trapping madtoms - if they're still here. But I guess just checking the cans and bottles that I come across would be safe for now. I'm going to be tracking down someone from the university that worked on the diversity project for that waterway but family business has kept me from doing much of anything lately so let's hope for a late frost!
Are you wondering if you are allowed to do it or if you should even bother?

Here is a little teaser for you
PA021909-A.JPG

Re: Newbie's first adventure (Ontario, Canada)

Posted: 05 Oct 2009, 06:28
by L number Banana
Birger:
To fish and game people this would also be considered a no no and I agree...generally once they are out keep them out (unless of course you are at the waters edge) if you can not keep them then they must be disposed of.
Eek! What I read in the ministry pamphlet is that you have to release the collection water and it's inhabitants back into the exact same place. It didn't say whether this was after a week or a few minutes. The collection spot is about 10 minutes from my house.
I could see it being a problem if the water/critters in question were in contact with other critters or water sources.
Hmm, need to double check this whole thing before I go out again. Thought I did my homework right but that's why this site is so great. Can't really have the tadpoles growing up to get eaten by my cats either...

Can you explain why you think they can't be put back? Maybe I'm missing something really obvious? I've been careful to make sure no common nets etc were in contact with the collection bottle and the tank was sparkly-clean. Please fill me in :?
Have you checked with the NANFA people how best to feed this fish?
You're wonderful Birger, I totally forgot that site! They weren't on the main list but I found lots of info on them with the search. I'm keeping him. :thumbsup:
Are you wondering if you are allowed to do it or if you should even bother?
:lol:
I would look for them even if the chance was astronomically against me ever finding one. It's the possibility that's fun. What I don't know is if I'm allowed to use traps specifically for madtoms. I've read many different versions, yes/no but depending on which agency I look at. The real problem is that they are all older documents. Newer versions from the MNR don't list madtoms at all. The Ontario office sent me some old stuff too, no madtoms listed.
All the current material that I got when I bought my license explains the different baitfish, the catching methods allowed and exactly how many and when BUT again madtoms are not on the list. So my main concern before I do anything more is to make sure I'm not about to scoop up something that is endangered or "extinct".

It just boils down to needing to walk before I run - more homework. But I really like the research end so I'm having fun with that too.

Nice pic! He's as cute as my bumblebee :D Hmm, can we transport LFS fish between provincial borders...I haven't seen a hockey game out here yet and my Leafs suck already... :lol: Was s/he bought at a fish store or a trade etc?

Re: Newbie's first adventure (Ontario, Canada)

Posted: 05 Oct 2009, 06:41
by L number Banana
Holy Madtoms! :shock:
Noturus albater Taylor 1969; Ozark Madtom
Noturus baileyi Taylor 1969; Smoky Madtom ENDANGERED (U.S.)
Noturus crypticus Burr, Eisenhour & Grady 2005; Chucky Madtom CANDIDATE (U.S.)
Noturus elegans Taylor 1969; Elegant Madtom
Noturus eleutherus Jordan 1877; Mountain Madtom
Noturus exilis Nelson 1876; Slender Madtom
Noturus fasciatus Burr, Eisenhour & Grady 2005; Saddled Madtom
Noturus flavater Taylor 1969; Checkered Madtom
Noturus flavipinnis Taylor 1969; Yellowfin Madtom THREATENED (U.S.)
Noturus flavus Rafinesque 1818; Stonecat
Noturus cf. flavus; Highlands Stonecat
Noturus funebris Gilbert & Swain 1891; Black Madtom
Noturus furiosus Jordan & Meek 1889; Carolina Madtom
Noturus gilberti Jordan & Evermann 1889; Orangefin Madtom
Noturus gladiator Thomas & Burr 2004; Piebald Madtom
Noturus gyrinus (Mitchill 1817); Tadpole Madtom
Noturus hildebrandi hildebrandi (Bailey & Taylor 1950); Least Madtom
Noturus hildebrandi lautus Taylor 1969; Ivory-bellied Madtom
Noturus insignis (Richardson 1836); Margined Madtom
Noturus lachneri Taylor 1969; Ouachita Madtom
Noturus leptacanthus Jordan 1877; Speckled Madtom
Noturus cf. leptacanthus; Broadtail Madtom
Noturus maydeni Egge 2006; Black River Madtom
Noturus miurus Jordan 1877; Brindled Madtom
Noturus munitus Suttkus & Taylor 1965; Frecklebelly Madtom
Noturus cf. munitus; Coosa Madtom
Noturus nocturnus Jordan & Gilbert 1886; Freckled Madtom
Noturus phaeus Taylor 1969; Brown Madtom
Noturus placidus Taylor 1969; Neosho Madtom THREATENED (U.S.)
Noturus stanauli Etnier & Jenkins 1980; Pygmy Madtom ENDANGERED (U.S.)
Noturus stigmosus Taylor 1969; Northern Madtom ENDANGERED (Canada) :(
Noturus taylori Douglas 1972; Caddo Madtom
Noturus trautmani Taylor 1969; Scioto Madtom ENDANGERED (U.S.); PROBABLY EXTINCT

:?: Noturus stigmosus - endangered What on earth would I do if I ever found one!!! :shock: I know it would probably never happen but what would one do in this case? I suppose get lots of photos of it and pop it back exactly where it was right away?
Now I've got myself worried that I might actually find a madtom and panic.

Catfish list here:http://www.nanfa.org/checklist.shtml#Fa ... Catfishes)

Re: Newbie's first adventure (Ontario, Canada)

Posted: 05 Oct 2009, 07:38
by Birger
I am glad you are going to keep the collected Umbra...first of many maybe.
Can you explain why you think they can't be put back? Maybe I'm missing something really obvious? I've been careful to make sure no common nets etc were in contact with the collection bottle and the tank was sparkly-clean. Please fill me in :?
Once the fish or whatever else has been pulled out and taken away it is not good practice, you would just not want to risk transferring pathogens of any kind or be the cause of such a thing, here in Alberta you can not even keep live bait, once out of the water it should be killed. Collecting is another story which entails another permit.
Nice pic! He's as cute as my bumblebee :D Hmm, can we transport LFS fish between provincial borders...I haven't seen a hockey game out here yet and my Leafs suck already... :lol: Was s/he bought at a fish store or a trade etc?
Yes we can transport between provinces, westjet works great.

Yes your right the Leafs do suck :D

I have five that somehow followed me home that were a direct result of this trip http://www.planetcatfish.com/shanesworl ... cting+Trip I myself had decided to go wandering around the Baltimore Aquarium and the Harbour area instead.

Birger