how common are mutants

[Amberdawn]

I just noticed one little BN fry that has a reduced dorsal fin. The fin starts out normally enough but only extends to 4, perhaps 5 at the max soft rays. This is the first mutant so far out of several hundred produced by it's parents.

My question is how common are mutants within the common BN? Do the rest of you get stuff like this now and again, or do they just quietly disappear into the oscar's tank? I've seen several posts about odd colors appearing, but not body abnormalities; though a mutant is a mutant no matter what trait is affected.

One is an amusing oddity, but I will be on the watch for another and if another appears those particular parents will be retired as breeders.

[Richard B]

In common BN's i see a fair bit of side profile head shape difference (along the lines of the so-called bulldog L46's but no so severe)

[apistomaster]

I have only noticed genetic problems with Albino Long Fin Bushy Nose Plecos.
Many seem predisposed to poor vigor and higher than normal Bushy Nose fry-juvenile mortality rates.

[Suckermouth]

So far, I have found two mutants (out of maybe six to eight batches of 20-30 young) that have something wrong with their snout/mouth which appears to reduce their ability to feed.

[apistomaster]

If the defect rate is too high for you I would recommend finding better breeding stock and dispose of all of your present stock of Bushy Nose.

[L number Banana]

Good question, I've always wondered the same thing.
I had one cory that was a mutant fry and survived only about a month. One the other hand one of my favourite Farlowella is much more yellow than any I've seen and it made me wonder if he's just a mutant with less "pigmentation genes"???

It may be more common with people who are breeding for fun as opposed to making a living. There's two issues at work: I'd love to breed my yellow farlowella but do I want that to get out into the regular population if it is a mutation? Definitely not.

Interesting topic - hope more people chime in.

[apistomaster]

Lbanana, your Farlowella is not a mutant. There are many species of Farlowella and some difference in color between the sexes within species. My sense is that most of the females will be lighter than the corresponding male of the species. Environmental factors and diet can also affect the coloration of Farlowella and their near relatives. Wild fish are rarely mutants. Anything that was very unusual would probably have been picked out by those closest to the source anyway.

[L number Banana]

apistomaster :

Lbanana, your Farlowella is not a mutant. There are many species of Farlowella and some difference in color between the sexes within species. My sense is that most of the females will be lighter than the corresponding male of the species. Environmental factors and diet can also affect the coloration of Farlowella and their near relatives. Wild fish are rarely mutants. Anything that was very unusual would probably have been picked out by those closest to the source anyway.

Thanks, that's good to know just in case it turns out to be female. The one that is almost black could be the male maybe. They're too small to know yet but it gives me hope that I have a pair. There's no images on PC of yellow farlowella so if I ever get a clear one, I'll send it to Jools so other people know that it's just a normal one - so breeding them is fine .
The two female F. vittata (both have been gravid) are light but not yellow. Your info gives me a good pointer for trying to find a male for them too.

By the environtment/diet part did you mean when they were born or now? All mine eat the same thing but the yellow one eats shrimp pellets too. Maybe that effects the colour? The black one doesn't eat any fresh veg that I've seen but both F.vittata do and they're very classic colour.

I'll have to keep my eyes out for the odd-ducks if it's colouring that appeared as a result of it's birth environment - they're easier to tell apart that way

What's everyone mean by mutant anyway? Is it always a bad thing? In flowers, a 'sport' that shows new colour or form is a wonderful thing.

[apistomaster]

I did mean the the colors within the same species may be different due to the particular environment and/or part of their range from which they were collected.
I can't remember where but it seems to me that other forum members have posted photos of their Farlowella which struck me as being some what golden brown compared to the more familiar darker brown to even gray specimens i have seen.
I haven't yet tried to breed Farlowella spp but their Sturisoma relatives can be fairly easy to sex based on belly color. In breeding condition the males have darker bellies than the relatively lighter colored females' bellies. Of course one should use all the sexual dimorphic features when trying to be certain of the fishes' sex.
I just noticed yesterday that I have a bunch of Sturisoma aureum fry in my main Sturisoma holding tank. Poor little guys. They will never make it unless i were to remove them to the proper rearing tank but they are cute little twigs while they last. My idea of a rearing tank for Sturisoma?
Stay tuned for the article I submitted to Shane to appear soon. I don't raise Sturisoma in quite the same way most people do.
I also have way more Sturisoma than I need. I can't keep any with my Discus because Sturisoma and Discus is a bad combination in which the Discus always come out the worse for the experience.

[L number Banana]

I just noticed yesterday that I have a bunch of Sturisoma aureum fry in my main Sturisoma holding tank. Poor little guys. They will never make it unless i were to remove them to the proper rearing tank but they are cute little twigs while they last.

If there was ever a reason for physicist to work on matter transfers like in star trek, this would be a good use. Poor little dudes, how I wish I had a private jet! Those fish are beautiful but I'm afraid I'll never see one here. Look forward to the article anyway

Sturisoma and Discus is a bad combination in which the Discus always come out the worse for the experience.

Wow that surprised me. I would have guessed the other way around

[Carp37]

I just noticed one little BN fry that has a reduced dorsal fin. The fin starts out normally enough but only extends to 4, perhaps 5 at the max soft rays. This is the first mutant so far out of several hundred produced by it's parents.

Out of over 300 fry raised by my first pair of bristlenose, I've had one that had a reduced pelvic fin- that's the only one I've seen that's defective in any way.

I did get 2 out of 85 Tilapia mariae fry with a compressed caudal peduncle, and about 20 out of 100 Geophagus iporangensis fry were missing one operculum- I won't be breeding that male with that female again! I'm not too certain if the defects were genetic or simply due to factors in the fry development during growth.

[Amberdawn]

I'm not too certain if the defects were genetic or simply due to factors in the fry development during growth.

This is a very good point. Anybody want to weigh in on how to determine if a defect is genetic or developmental? I would imagine the same defect in different batches of fry from the same parents would be pretty darn suggestive of genetic. However, even several in the same batch, maybe or maybe not. I had an entire batch of chicks once dead in the shell with the same rather gruesome abnormality. The cause turned out to be a temperature flux in the incubator.