PlanetCatfish.com

Hey everyone!
Right so despite the relatively small amount of plecos we can get in NZ I managed to get these guys the other day. They were sold as leopard plecos but that was because no one actually knew what they were.
Ive searched through the website for a positive ID, and posted on 2 other New Zealand forums, and we seemed to have sort of figured out what they are not, but IDing what they are is slightly more difficult.

links to the posts on the other forums are here (im hoping im allowed to link on here):
http://www.fnzas.org.nz/fishroom/viewto ... 23&t=40267
http://fishkeepers.co.nz/forums/viewtop ... 8519#p8519


and here are the said mystery tiger panaques

fish 1



Fish 2



I apologise about the manhandling of the fish's face I just grabbed em and took a pic, packed them up and drove 550km back home with them

The only fish I didn't sample from the current "list"

I think it is a Juvenille based on the pictures and information in DATZ.

Cheers

Geoff

first i thought it was a clown, Panaque maccus

then i thought maybe a L002 Tiger ''Peckoltia''


Now I'm back to a Panaque maccus. But I'm a wayyy newbie.
Just from comparing pics.

Hi,
I should have put more information.

Currently are labeled here as Leopard Frog Pleco, and are labeled Tiger Pleco, because that is what they were called in Singapore, and therefore, rightly or wrongly, that is what they are being sold as.

However because these fish are labeled Leopard Pleco, then I am quite sure they are not the same as one of the other fish on the for sale list.

But if I didn't know that, then I would have said Panaque maccus.

Geoff

Hi,

..you wouldn´t happen to have a picture showing the snout colouration..?
That would be really helpful to at least check whether it is L 306 or is more likely L 2 or L 169.

Cheers, Sandor

thanks for the info guys, here's another couple of pics:






geoff- these were sold as leopard plecos only because a quick stock take revealed that the store had 2 leopards in stock. none of the order forms could be found, and so it is a complete mystery as to what it really is. the lists I saw a couple of weeks ago had fish labelled "large band tiger pleco", "leopard frog pleco", and "tiger pleco". unfortunately there were no L numbers given.

That last picture certainly looks like P. maccus.

--
Mats

Hi,

phoenix44 wrote: geoff- these were sold as leopard plecos only because a quick stock take revealed that the store had 2 leopards in stock. none of the order forms could be found, and so it is a complete mystery as to what it really is. the lists I saw a couple of weeks ago had fish labelled "large band tiger pl*co", "leopard frog pl*co", and "tiger pl*co". unfortunately there were no L numbers given.

Lucky for us that I purchased all of these

Here is the discussion re the "large band tiger pl*co" http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... 13&t=26419

and here is the discussion re the "leopard frog pl*co" http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... 13&t=25816

There was no discussion required for the "tiger pl*co" it was

Wait, now I remember why I didn't try and ID the Loepard Pleco... There was one in stock (different shop) and they are .

The Tigers were about 8-9 cm TL and the "Leopard Frogs" were about 5 cm TL.

It is possible that the word "Frog" got left out when entering them in the system, as the "frogs" were on a different page on the "list"?

I would say then that they may be P. maccus if they are the smaller ones, even though the ones I saw all had a finer banding as far as the lighter colouration goes.

Sorry Andy, I had assumed that the shop would have put the same label on the fish that the label on the package had

Cheers

Hmm.
This is the first time I've stuck my nose in here because generally I'm too new at this BUT...
Doesn't P.maccus have a shorter "nose"? It just looks a little longer than either mine or the pics. Is that an youngster thing?

krazyGeoff wrote:Lucky for us that I purchased all of these

they are all still available though! i want some of each but won't get them until I get a dedicated pleco tank

krazyGeoff wrote: Wait, now I remember why I didn't try and ID the Loepard pl*co... There was one in stock (different shop) and they are Dekeyseria brachyura.

I have 1 male. they are not common here, so get all you can ha ha. they were at one stage being sold as butterfly plecos.

krazyGeoff wrote: It is possible that the word "Frog" got left out when entering them in the system, as the "frogs" were on a different page on the "list"?

not in the slightest chance. LOL. the instore lists are just a database of what is and was available in NZ. it was just sold as that, cause that was the only way I could pay for it.

ill try getting some more pics without stress colourations, as most of those pics were taken on day 1.
I'm still pretty confused as to what they are / should be

phoenix44 wrote: they are all still available though! i want some of each but won't get them until I get a dedicated pl*co tank

I didn't mean I brought ALL of the stock as one must balance the size of the wallet and the size of the tank.

More pic's would be good, thanks.

I wouldn't trust any NZ aquarium shop IDs, and common names are utterly meaningless.

As Borbi said, these fish are either or .

I will check my literature more thoroughly tomorrow.

phoenix44, how much were they?

phoenix44 wrote:

krazyGeoff wrote: Wait, now I remember why I didn't try and ID the Loepard pl*co... There was one in stock (different shop) and they are Dekeyseria brachyura.

they were at one stage being sold as butterfly plecos.

Hmm perhaps I confused myself?

Even though common names are utterly meaningless it would be good if the different retailers could at least use the same common name if that is what they purchased the fish as, if that makes sense

krazyGeoff wrote:Even though common names are utterly meaningless it would be good if the different retailers could at least use the same common name if that is what they purchased the fish as, if that makes sense

Indeed, it makes sense to me. I'm pretty sure it's mix between accidental mislabeling and strategic sales decisions in the different sales channels - "Oh, shucks, we've run out of this one - these look the same, they won't notice".

--
Mats

krazyGeoff wrote:

phoenix44 wrote:

krazyGeoff wrote: Wait, now I remember why I didn't try and ID the Loepard pl*co... There was one in stock (different shop) and they are Dekeyseria brachyura.

they were at one stage being sold as butterfly plecos.

Hmm perhaps I confused myself?

Just to confirm, yes I had confused myself! re the leopard "pleco"

Looking forward to more pictures.

Geoff

Just to confirm, yes I had confused myself! re the leopard "pl*co"

The "leopard plecs" I have seen for sale in NZ have been .

Even though common names are utterly meaningless it would be good if the different retailers could at least use the same common name if that is what they purchased the fish as, if that makes sense

This might work if; a) the exporters knew what they were selling; b) MAF knew what was being imported; c) the retailers knew what they were selling!

Basically, nobody bothers to work it out!

Having said that, its not easy to get an exact identification, and I have checked my literature and am not really much the wiser.

Borbi, please explain to me the differences within the L002 group.

sp. "L074" is another possibility I think.

yeah, i work in one of the pet shops on occasion, and its hard getting specific fish in. they may have the "right name" - but when the fish comes in it sometimes does not match what it should be.
then there are the mystery cases like this one.

well here's some pics that should help

I am now seeing that my statement saying "It may be P. maccus" is clearly wrong. As others have said, there are a few different species that look pretty much the same, so L002, L169, L074 are all possible answers. Sorry I can't really help more.

--
Mats

any help is good help. I already know more about this fish than i started off with, so that's good.
gave them plenty wood, and boy do they chow through zucchini!

Thanks for the Pics Phoenix44. They look much better now that they have settled down a bit.

They look like the ones I brought as Tiger Pleco's.
I have called mine instead of L074 or for the following reasons:
1: Here on PC the link for L002 and L074 end up at the same page.
2: In my reference guide "Back to Nature Guide to L-Catfishes" by Ingo Seidel, the trade name of L002 is listed as "Tiger Pleco" (Rio Tocantins)
3: In the same reference guide the remarks about L169 read "Very similar to L002, but with a broader pattern of lines on the head and usually somewhat more attractively coloured" (Rio Negro)

I have asked the importer if they can provide information about which river these fish were caught in (beacuse in the shipment appeared to be other fish from both the Rio Tocantins and the Rio Negro), but they are unable to do so.

At the end of the day I just had to accept that there is not quite enough information to say for certain which specific L number they are.
The important thing is that there is a strong correlation in the care parameters for the above mentioned fish.
The following parameter ranges are common to L002, L074, L169 pH 5.5 - 7, Temp 26 - 29 Degrees C, Wood eating, current required.
Soft wood is best. Also vegetables. Mine like golden kumera (a form of yam), I give them an inch slice minus the skin, raw, and they will eat that in one night, but will stink your tank out worse than any zucchini if you leave it for more than 24 hours, especially at 28 degrees.

So Perhaps the best outcome is that they are nice looking fish that get cared for correctly and have a nice life (given of course that they are no longer in the wild)

Regards

Geoff

One step closer to an ID!

the only thing I could see that is different with the L002 and this fish (and im not sure if this is a valid point or not) is that, this fish has that triangular shape / pattern halfway through the body, but the L002 does not seem to have it in any life stage.
can patterns and stripes etc vary between the same species / L number?

racoll wrote: phoenix44, how much were they?

I got em real cheap!
think similarly priced to a small gibby.
and I got both of em for that price. yay for wholesale prices

can patterns and stripes etc vary between the same species / L number?

The problem is, the pattern and colour appear to vary considerably with age, and between individuals.

It does, however, appear that the head pattern of the L002 breaks up more with age into thin reticulations, while with the L169, it remains in stripes.

Not sure how reliable this is, but you need mature, adult specimens.

Good find by the way, and a nice fish.

well then, best I can do is wait and see how they turn out if they are older. No one really knows how old they are.. but now im thinking an importer sold it as the wrong fish by mistake. expensive mistake that turned out to be.

well if they change patterns for some reason, ill update this thread with some more pics and the IDing can continue

MatsP wrote:

krazyGeoff wrote:Even though common names are utterly meaningless it would be good if the different retailers could at least use the same common name if that is what they purchased the fish as, if that makes sense

Indeed, it makes sense to me. I'm pretty sure it's mix between accidental mislabeling and strategic sales decisions in the different sales channels - "Oh, shucks, we've run out of this one - these look the same, they won't notice".

--
Mats

NZ has rigorous bio security rules and the therefore open importation of all fish is not allowed.

And the costly exercise of setting up an import facility with a Quarantine set up means that we are at the mercy of just a few importers.

A fish like this might hit our retail market for $70.00-80.00US, and most work on 100% markup, so a wholesaler buys, imports, then has to quarantine the fish for no less than six weeks. He/she has to pay our bio-security and customs agencies fees to oversee this process. Saying nothing of the geographic isolation and that most of these fish are bought sight unseen and freight will be expensive due to distance and time.
So you can imagine to make any profit on the fish that he/she sells for $35.00-$40.00, the fish he/she seeks from an American or Asian supplier is at the budget end of the scale and are often fish whose ID is problematic, therefore not getting top dollar and reaching more lucrative Northern Hemispere markets.

Many of the imports of plecs don't have a designated L# but will often have a common name that could fit or be a close facsimile.
The importer can designate any common name and often plec starved NZ'ers are all to keen to apply L#'s to such fish often leaning toward a more 'exotic' option.

The "serious" plec market here probably totals people in the tens- thats how small it is, and the interest here is only a recent development, so as a whole importers, retailers and the general community have only fledgling experience. " A little bit of knowlege can be a dangerous thing"

Recent Examples

An unidentified peckoltia species brought in as "Leopard frog" with no designated L# yet within a very short time people were delighted in displaying Their new L134's, despite the simple truth that the new import looked nothing like it.

An unknown pseudancistrus species(likey L67) came in under"Flathead Gold Nugget".

A dekyseria species( likey L168- not the cleanest around) were marketed as "bumble bee" plec.

Batches of Scobiancistrus that seemed to have different species ( L253?, L014?) within them, yet sold as only "goldie.

Some nothing looking Ancistrus species sold as "blue spot" pleco. No blue anywhere near it.

Hypostumus Cochliodons sold as "scarlet pleco".

LDA33 consistently sold as "Snowball".


The only saving grace here is that every now and then, and because of this mostly ill-informed practise we occasionally get something slightly exotic sold as something common( L136 sold as ancistrus species)

Hi guys. This is a great post. While were on the subject of Panaque tiger plecos. Heres a few adult tiger plecos that I have. They have all grown a bit now and are in better condition. Any ideas on species? L002/L169.....

small female

large female

male 1

male 2

hmm.. now yours look different. what do they look like in the tank?

they are not always that darkly coloured. They were from two different sources. The larger female was brought separately from the other three but they were brought as L169's from fish keepers, although in my opinion they look a fair bit like larger versions of yours Phoenix44. Now I'm confused. My other tiger plecos are young juveniles and will grow a fair bit and no doubt lose a little of their colour.

racoll wrote: It does, however, appear that the head pattern of the L002 breaks up more with age into thin reticulations, while with the L169, it remains in stripes.

the head pattern (flatfish) looks like thin reticulations to me

thanks Geoff. It looks like they may be adult L002 then. They definitely have fairly thin lines on the head and look very similar to my other large juvenile tiger plecos, which were sold as L271's. Looks like I may have a decent group of the same thing, most likely L002.

thanks Geoff. It looks like they may be adult L002 then.

If someone held a gun to my head, I would also probably say L002 for your plecs flatfish, but I don't know how reliable the head stripe character is...