blue-eye panaque

blueblue · Post by **blueblue** » 23 Jun 2009, 04:31

Blue-eye panaque, 12 inches long, from Columbia

mattfaulkner · Post by **mattfaulkner** » 24 Jun 2009, 10:53

Very nice, hope those sunken eyes are only due to being out of water.

Richard B · Post by **Richard B** » 24 Jun 2009, 13:25

yes - those sunken eyes look quite extreme

blueblue · Post by **blueblue** » 24 Jun 2009, 15:42

Dear Friends: Thanks. Don't worry, as mattfaulkner said, it's a matter of "out-of-water"
thing. By the way, my observation also shows me that blue-eye panaque (of this type
from Columbia) has deeper eyes. Some updated photos are as follows.

aalund · Post by **aalund** » 25 Jun 2009, 21:11

wooooh what a nice fish

what is the name and number? looks like something for my new tank

Haavard Stoere · Post by **Haavard Stoere** » 25 Jun 2009, 23:02

Check the price before you order

andrewcoxon · Post by **andrewcoxon** » 26 Jun 2009, 00:29

i think it panaque suttoronum not cochliodon... that fish seems to have the higher back like my pair.

total stunner!!!

Richard B · Post by **Richard B** » 26 Jun 2009, 12:37

Whichever it is (& i don't have a scooby-doo) there is no denying it is a magnificent specimen

Richard B · Post by **Richard B** » 26 Jun 2009, 12:39

aalund wrote:wooooh what a nice fish

what is the name and number? looks like something for my new tank

As Haavard says, check the price!!!!!!! These seem to be one of the most expensive cats about, if you can get them. £1,000 UK sterling has been quoted for one fish.....

Post by **Shane** » 26 Jun 2009, 17:19

i think it panaque suttoronum not cochliodon...

A beautiful specimen of P. cochliodon. It is certainly not P. suttonorum, which has a white ring around the caudal peduncle and white fins as well.

I do not have a copy of Galvis et al (Peces de Catatumbo) on hand, but something like 50% of the fish spp surveyed in the Catatumbo are also present in the Magdalena system. To me this large overlap between the two systems supports the possibility that the Panaque sp coming from the Catatumbo area is very likely the same sp exported from the Magdalena.
-Shane

aalund · Post by **aalund** » 26 Jun 2009, 18:41

hmmm...why is it that EVERYTIME I find a nice catfish for my tank its either expensive, rare,not for sale or it dosent exist in Denmark

damn shame....

hiplecoman · Post by **hiplecoman** » 27 Jun 2009, 07:00

Stunning fish! congradualtions on finding a beautiful specimen!

andrewcoxon · Post by **andrewcoxon** » 05 Jul 2009, 00:32

Shane wrote:
i think it panaque suttoronum not cochliodon...
A beautiful specimen of P. cochliodon. It is certainly not P. suttonorum, which has a white ring around the caudal peduncle and white fins as well.

I do not have a copy of Galvis et al (Peces de Catatumbo) on hand, but something like 50% of the fish spp surveyed in the Catatumbo are also present in the Magdalena system. To me this large overlap between the two systems supports the possibility that the Panaque sp coming from the Catatumbo area is very likely the same sp exported from the Magdalena.
-Shane

but they look totally different... the body shape is much bulkier and higher and the colour is different (cochliodon being dark grey/black suttoronum being olive green or light grey when recently imported) i have 2 of these fish and they are not the same p. cochliodon imported as blue eyes years ago.

Post by **Borbi** » 05 Jul 2009, 08:22

Hi,

while my personal experience in keeping this (these) species is limited, I still think that this difference in body shape is simply a question of size and age:

These pictures were taken at an importer,
this one is the smallest specimen I saw as of yet, about 10cm TL:

In constrast, a specimen at about 35cm TL:

And there also is a male with stunning 45cm (sorry, couldn´t get a decent picture of that), and with a selection of 10 fish at different sizes, you can clearly see a correlation between body shape and size/age.

None of the fish available there showed any characteristics attributable to P. suttonorum.

Cheers, Sandor

Post by **Shane** » 05 Jul 2009, 16:44

but they look totally different

I tend to agree with Sandor that the differences have more to do with the age of the fish. That said, it is possible that they are a different (and undescribed) sp from those that come from the Magdalena basin. This is why I support Jool's idea of calling them Panaque sp Maracaibo basin, or something similar, until it is either determined that P. cochliodon has a larger range than the Magdalena basin or these fish are in fact a new spp. As I pointed out above, a huge number of the fish spp found in the Magdalena are also found in the Maracaibo basin. This, from a scientific standpoint, makes me lean more to the theory that P. cochliodon has a broader range than first thought and not that we are looking at an undescribed animal.
Regardless of whether they are a new population of P. cochliodon or in fact a new sp, we can say with certainty by comparing them to Schultz' description that they are not P. suttonorum.

Does anyone think the fish above matches this description?

''Uniformly greyish ... basal two-thirds of the paired fins black, and the tips of these fins white; the posterior margin of dorsal is white, a narrow white bar across caudal peduncle, middle of caudal fin white then some black blotches; the tips of the rays are white.''

The only part that matches is "uniformly greyish." After that not a single characteristic matches up.
-Shane

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 08 Jul 2009, 01:29

''Uniformly greyish ... basal two-thirds of the paired fins black, and the tips of these fins white; the posterior margin of dorsal is white, a narrow white bar across caudal peduncle, middle of caudal fin white then some black blotches; the tips of the rays are white.''

Shane, the closest fish I have seen to this description is presented in Kobayagawa's 1991 "The World of Catfishes" book. The fish is referred to as Panaque suttoni var. and is on the top right of page 67.

Not perfect, but close.....

Post by **Shane** » 08 Jul 2009, 17:29

Racoll,
Unfortunately I don't have access to any of my books right now as they are being shipped. Would it violate any rules to post the photo on the forum (noting where it comes from and who it belongs to of course)?
-Shane

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 08 Jul 2009, 17:50

I can't help but think that the Magdalena specimens and the Maricaibo specimens shared a common ancestor that became geographically isolated by the rise of the intervening mountain range long enough ago for species differentiation to have occurred. It is possible that stream captures did allow for incomplete separation and that might explain further why they are still so similar.

I am just a curious observer of this debate as I would never pay so much for these fish as the market allows and they grow to be far too large for me to want to keep. I like plecos that stay under 4 inches and can be bred in 20 Long to 40 gal breeder tanks. I am interested in evolutionary biology and these large Panaques are a curious case.

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 09 Jul 2009, 04:14

Would it violate any rules to post the photo on the forum (noting where it comes from and who it belongs to of course)?

Sure, will do. I'll get it up in a few days.

Dave Rinaldo · Post by **Dave Rinaldo** » 09 Jul 2009, 05:09

I hope you don't mind, Racoll

Photo (cropped) of photo in the book
THE WORLD OF CATFISHES
by Midori Kobayagawa
Edited by Warren E. Burgess
TFH Publications (p. 67)

: Panaque suttoni var. (TFH)

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 09 Jul 2009, 06:14

I hope you don't mind, Racoll

Not at all Dave. My scanner decided to start working today so here is mine too. Same details apply.

Photo (cropped) of photo in the book
THE WORLD OF CATFISHES
by Midori Kobayagawa
Edited by Warren E. Burgess
TFH Publications (p. 67)

What do we think?

Uniformly greyish: yes
Basal two-thirds of the paired fins black: can't really see
Tips of these fins white: yes
Posterior margin of dorsal is white: yes
Narrow white bar across caudal peduncle: not really, but it does look a bit paler in that area
Middle of caudal fin white then some black blotches: no
The tips of the rays are white: yes

Post by **Shane** » 09 Jul 2009, 17:08

It is certainly closer than most of what is being marketed under this name.

The description of the caudal makes me think it will look like this

-Shane

Post by **Shane** » 09 Jul 2009, 19:03

My brother got all the artistic skills in the family, but this is my best interpretation of Schultz' description.
-Shane

andrewcoxon · Post by **andrewcoxon** » 09 Jul 2009, 23:40

when you see it like that it looks a bit like some kind of papa panaque.

i hope we get to the bottom of this, there's nothing worse than owning a fish and not knowing what it is... hurts my head!

i bought them as p. cochliodon but mine we're later i'd on pf as p. sutto's.. now i dont know what they are.

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 10 Jul 2009, 00:59

Beautiful Shane

That really should go in the cat-elog

hope we get to the bottom of this, there's nothing worse than owning a fish and not knowing what it is... hurts my head!
i bought them as p. cochliodon but mine we're later i'd on pf as p. sutto's.. now i dont know what they are.

Andrew, read here for a bit more info.

Essentially, the Magdelena fish here is .

The Maracaibo blue-eyes that have been showing up of late (below), although listed in the cat-elog (this will change soon, I think) as , are not P. suttonorum. The Maracaibo fish should probably be referred to as Panaque cf. cochliodon. They are very similar fish (the two blue-eyes) that is clear, but may or may not represent the same species. Based on the description, the real P. suttonorum appears to be unknown to both science (apart from the type series) and the trade.

Alex_gr · Post by **Alex_gr** » 10 Jul 2009, 12:48

Have these fish ever bred in captivity?

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 10 Jul 2009, 13:34

Alex_gr wrote:Have these fish ever bred in captivity?

If they have, it's not been reported. I don't think it's impossible, but it would require a quite large tank (even alone they require large tanks, but if you keep a pair, you also need to have enough space for the two to find their own territory, and enough space for a spawning location - we know that common plecos breed in deep hollows in the bank of the river, and it wouldn't surprise me if the same is true for these fish, but a hollowed out trunk of a tree may also work).

--
Mats

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