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Hello, I have problems with my 44 galloon tank for several days. Fist off all the tank is overstocked, there were 12 ancistrus between 2"-12" , 12 Agamyxis pectinifrons 2,5"-3" , 1 L-191 panaque 3,5", 1 L-201 4", 10 black neon tetras, 14 neon tetras, 10 flame tetras, 6 rummy nose tetras, 4 glowlight tetras, 4 atocinclus affinis, 20 sterbai corycat 1"-2,5", 20 panda corycat 1"-2".

As I mentioned the tank is 44 gallons square bottom custom made tank. Filtration is made by a large 450 Gph external filter, 1 large sponge filter, a DIY overtank filter used for extra aeration and collecting solid waste, a 300 Gph power head is running that overtank filter. Aeration is done by 4 airstones connected to two seperate air pumps, and also an other 300 gph powerhead is used only for surface aeration. The tank is heated by a 300 watt heater, temperature is 82F . lighting is done by 3 X 24 watt t5 fluorescent lamps.

I do %30 wc per week or %20 every 5 five days. I add double dose seachem prime, half dose seachem stress guard and 1/4 dose seachem stability and 1/4 dose sera ectopur(helps preventation of fungal infections and safe for catfish) to the new water before adding to the tank. I add blackwater extract randomly to the tank.

Ph is generally a little below 7. Almost no fish died in this tank for about a year, since 3 days ago.

First I saw some neon tetras trying to swim upside down and died in a few minutes, then I looked at the filter inlet and saw 2 panda corycats and an ottocinclus deads. I thougt that it should be because of nitrates, because I was overfeeding for about a week and had skipped the regular wc for 2-3 days.
I made a %50 wc, with new water added 2 times more prime then usual (seachem claims thet prime bonds ammonia, nitrit and nitrates when used 4 times the regular dose), also added half of the recommended dose of sera ectopur.
The next morning I found 3 more neon tetras 2 panda cories and 2 sterbai cories over the filter inlet death. Then made an other %50 wc same as the previous one. Also saw that 3 panda cories had pup-eye syndrome. When I came home that night I found those panda cories death and also 2 more neon tetras and 3 large sterbai corycats, sterbais had red marks only on their left sides, and one of them had an all red tail. And this morning I found 4 more cory deads and 2 neon tetras.

Water seems to be crystal clear after 2 %50 wc's, none of the plecos and catfishes show any ill signs except a young longfin ancistrus, which had white markings on the body likes a fungal infection that started the day deats started. No tetras died other than neon tetras. Only panda cories shows signs before deaths, still a few of them have pup-eye syndrome, aso those pandas have bloody marks on their lateral areas.
I made a ph test today It shows 7,4 but I believe it is because of two the large water changes, it is usually 6,8 .

What do you think about the situation? Is it a simple nitrate problem or some poisoning or bacterial infection? And what I should do if deaths dont stop.

The tank;


Some of the death fish;

The best is you look, how many nitrate you have. I think thats the reason for the dying.

I dont have a nitrate test at the moment, I'll test nitrates tomorrow. But although I suspect the nitrates most, as you mention, amount of nitrates should drop considerably after 2 big water changes. Then why my fishes keep dying? Is there long term effects of a nitrate spike that can kill fish after the conditions got better.
Also as I know rummy nose tetras and very young bristlenose catfish are more fragile to nitrates than neon tetras and corydoras, but all the other fish except neon tetras and coy cats seems to be fine.

For the numbers and sizes of the fish you have you sure could use a few more those 44 gallon tanks to properly accommodate that many fish. Even if you did that, you are using far too many additive chemicals and far too little water changes. No amount of filtration can make up for overcrowding of this level. You want to be physically removing and diluting accumulated wastes through water changes not adding chemicals to attempt to counteract the adverse effects of severe over crowding. These chemicals accumulate and aggravate what is already an untenable situation.
If your tank was stocked properly, you couldn't go wrong by changing 50% of the water 2 X a week but there is nothing you can do to make the present system support so many fish and not have some problems such as diseases cleaning out the most sensitive fish. Until you do something to relieve this overcrowding, you are on borrowed time before the next round of die offs.

Yes, nitrate is more of a "slowly breaking down the resistance" than a "immediately toxic".

Also, the other thing to keep an eye on is pH or ammonia spikes (the latter possibly caused by the former - if pH drops below 5, the bacteria in the filter will pretty much stop working), as if your water is soft (indicated by pH below 7), it may not have enough KH to hold a stable pH.

I also agree with Apistomaster.

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Mats

Thanks for the answer. First I take my word back "other fishes seems to be fine" I just took dead flame tetra out of tank and saw some infections on black tetras, one have particular whitening on body, other seem to have same fungal infection, an other neon tetra is dying just now. Also that young longfin bristlenose seems much worse, more white spots on the body.
I accept everything you say about owercrowding. I have 7 more tanks at this size and smaller, I'll split some fishes to those tanks.
I use chemicals a lot less than the recommended doses, so do you advice not using them?
That overtank filter that I mentioned collects all visible waste before they enter the main filter and I clean that filter every other day, but since most of the ammonia released by gills, you are right about doing more water changes.

At the moment my fish still keeps dying, what should I do as an emergency solution. Be sure that I'm very positive about solving overcrowding problem as soon as possible. Also I wonder if everyone sure about the situation is a nitrate spike?

You may have a bacterial problem brought on by chronic overcrowding. I also think your cory cats would appreciate a sand substrate.

Sorry, I can't get over the amount of chemicals you put in the water!!!!! We don't use anything, and our Discus, Corys and L-Numbers are fine. If the water where you live isn't great, get a active-carbon filter and use natural substances to soften the water (Peat for example). To protect your fish from some bacteria and fungal pathogens, use tropical almond leaves.

Why do you have so many fish in one tank? Did another one break? If not, you really should consider reducing your fish numbers or getting another tank.

I'd also change 50% of the water per week - the more often, the better.

greetings,
Kiera

What are those red spots? I had something like this happen to my Aspidoras, lost three fish.Tank was not overstocked,water was fine.

Yes it can also be bacterial, I'm not %100 sure about the nitrate spike but it is the highest possiblity.

Hello, yes we dont have suitable water here for soft water fishes. Please dont come over me that much, that tank is running for 3 years and since that happening no more fish died in that tank more than fingers of my one hand.
I'm already using peat and almond leaves, my other tanks are not that much overstocked even two of them are understocked. And this is the fisrt time I meet this kind of situation. I'm using prime to remove heavy metals from new water, I keep the water at least for 3 days before adding to aquarium in open topped containers. Stability is a bacteria culture and doesnt affect fish and stress guard is a slime coat which I use at minimal dosage. Ectopur is not a chemical it is a salt combined with bor mineral, and I use only half table spoon for 44 galoons. All of them water preparations and not known to be harmful for fish, and I use them in minimal dosages. I only use prime double dosage because our tap water is high in heavy metals.
I was doing %30 changes 2 times a week since a few months ago but I decided that doing less water changes was better to keep water parameters more stable. But now I know it was a mistake.

My fish are still dying while I'm writing here, do you have any emergency action that I should take now? Should I do more water changes or add something to water or what else? I'll make a nitrate test tomorrow, but I'dont think it will show very high results.
Here is a photo of a panda cory that died a few minutes ago pupped eyes and bloody marks around belly and anus;
Can anyone identify the sutiation of this fish?

But the tank is still overstocked, and what happens is that when you are feeding the fish, you add nitrogen [mainly in the form of protein], which will increase the nitrate. Once the fish grows to a certain size, the amount of nitrate produced will exceed what you can remove, and that weakens the immune system of the fish, which then suffers from internal bacterial infections, which is exactly what it looks like yours have done.

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Mats

Ok, I'm absolutely aware of my tank's overstocking. And I'll seperate those fish to my other other tanks as soon as possible, but it is not possible at the moment, because I keep predatory fish, agressive fish and turtles in my other tanks, I must rearrange all the tanks and that will take at least a few days.
Thanks for reminding nitrogen cycle. Half of those tetras and cories were in another tank some time ago but I did set up that other tank for only my adult agamyxis pectinifrons' and moved those fish to this 44 gal. So it became overstocked, I was planning to do some rearrangement but it is too late now.
So, you say it is a bacterial infection caused by weakening of fish due to high nitrates, then what should I do now? Should I add antibacterial treatment to the tank? Or do some more water changes, or do something else?

By the way if my attitude seems to be harsh, sorry for that. My english is not very good, I'm thankful for all the comments.

Yes, treat for internal bacterial infection, after you have done a large water-change - those medications are not VERY effective, but there's at least some chance they do what the label says [make sure the product you choose is safe for catfish]. Replenish medication as you do further water changes.

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Mats

Ok thanks, I have sera bactopur, I'll use it. Sould I make the treatment in the main tank? Plecos doesnt seen to be affected. Also should I use vitamins, blackwater extract etc? Because our tap water is very hard and and alkaline with every water change I increase alkalinity and carnonate hardness of water. I dont have reverse osmosis.

my boyfriend just read this post and remarked that Bactopur probably killed the bacteria in your filter, thus the nitrate peak. Perhaps it would be best to use some filter material from another tank to get your filter stable - until then you will have to change the water quite often to minimise the nitrate peak...

I didnt use the bactopur yet. I know It'll kill the filter bacteria if I use it in the main tank and that may result an ammonia peak which is far more dangerous than a nitrate peak. So I'm not sure if I'll use it. But since dead fish shows signs of bacterial infections I need to do something but probably I'll stick on large water changes and use some fish vitamin to help recovery of fish.

The red blotching shown in the pictures of the dead Corys is almost certainly caused by high nitrites not nitrates. Also I also notice that you do not have any substrate in that particular tank. To me this is also not good as the glass base will certainly have a concentrated bacterial slime coating, which looking at the decoration will be virtually impossible to clean and which will affect the Cory barbels and may be trigger internal infection.

What can happen with nitrites is that it can enter the blood of the fish causing a condition known as 'Brown blood syndrome'. Th result of this effectively inhibits the bloods ability to take on oxygen and will in time cause the fishes demise, the problem detecting this is that a fish may still die several weeks after the water conditions have been restored to normal.

There is a course of actions that I take immediately any of my Corys show signs of lethargy and or any red blotching on the body. Firstly I will make a 70-80% water change and then give the tank a full dose of Melafix and add a fairly powerful air stone to ensure the surface of the water is moving.

Ian

Hello Coryman, thanks for the diagnosis. As I understand if the problem is nitrites then it is caused by overfeeding and the filter couldnt turn high number of nitrites to nitrates and that poisoned my fish. Is it also an explanation for the deaths of tetra fish along with my corydoras?

You are right about the slime coat that reproduces on all-glass base. I have a twin of that tank and there are no plecos in it, so you can visibly see the slime coating but this tank dosent have it , I think it is because of the plecos always sucking the bottom, or the coating exists but not visible. I'll think about adding sand substrate if I can solve the problem of overcrowding.

Today I was planning to do several large water changes, I'll stick on that plan. But we dont have melafix here nor any api product. I can only find Sera, Tetra, Seachem and Azoo brands. Is there any product of those brands that you can advice instead of melafix?
I plan using high doses of seachem prime which is said to bond nitrites when used in high doses. Also I wonder should I add any blackwater extract to the new water? Because my tank is normaly a blackwater tank but due to water changes I made yesterday Kh and Ph increased a lot, also the water lost it's tannin coloration.

I don't know of an alternative to Melafix. It is a purely organic treatment made by Aquarium Pharmaceutical Industries. http://aquariumpharm.com/ you should be able to source some of this from one of the internet aquarium stores.

If you add a few dried cones from the Black Alder (Alnus glutinosa) http://www.plant-identification.co.uk/s ... tinosa.htm This will return the tannins as well as other anti fungal properties to the new water.

Ian

Even if your tap water is not idael in terms of being close to the fishes' natural environment it is good enough for keeping them well. The fish you have are all able to adapt to harder water and higher pH than they may experience in nature. Often the only time making the adjustments to more closely match their natural waters is only necessary for breeding.

Unless fish require higher pH and hardness, it is best to minimize the addition of chemicals. Of course, one should use a water conditioner when using fresh tap water to neutralize chlorine/chloramines added by the water dept but nothing else.
All the acid buffers sold only add to the total dissolved solids(TDS) and tend to have temporary effects because of the buffering capacity of hard water already has. In general, you can not improve your water by adding more chemicals to it.
So I recommend adding little more than the fishes' daily feedings and making regular water changes of at least 50% once or twice a week.
If you decide you do want to simulate their natural waters then begin with RO, deionized or rainwater and carefully add enough stabilizing buffers along with a source of acidity like Oak leaves, peat filtration or Alder Cones. Use great caution when using acid buffers or dilute acids to lower the pH, they are safe to use but it takes very little to effect a great drop if the water has low TDS. As I mentioned above, this is not really necessary to just enjoy your fish and is more relevant if you are trying to breed some of the species in your collection.

(I see Ian just posted while I was writing and he also suggested trying Alder Cones to lower your pH without resorting to chemicals.)

Some time ago a friend of mine ordered (and paid for) melafix from an internet store(UK) , It has been about two months but they still didnt send them. They claim it is out of stock.. So I cant find melafix at the moment, and cannot use any other antibacterial med. not to harm my benefical bacteria.

We dont have alder cones here too. I only have dried almond leaves and black water extracts, which one is better in your suggestion?

Also I did search brown blood syndrome. In the definations of the problem they say gills turn to a very dark red-brown color and fish shows signs of oxygen deficiency. None of my fish shows signs of oxygen defiency. I use 2 powerheads and 2 strong air pumps to supply oxygen to the aquarium. My corydoras doesnt go to surface to gasp air and tetras dont swim close to surface. And none of the fish that died had coloration change on the gills, only lateral areas around the belly turned red.
Is there a possibility that the situation is not a nitrite poisining?

The effects of nitrite poisoning are not the same as oxygen deficiency in the water. Having the water saturated in oxygen would have no effect on a fish suffering from nitrite poisoning. It is the bloods ability to absorb oxygen that is drastically reduced by the condition, it is doubtful if fish can fully recover from the condition.

Ian

The fish may recover, but this will take time. Nitrite damages the oxygen absorption of the blood, and therefore new blood needs to be produced

for those wondering whether a fish - which is just dead - died of nitrite, cut it in half. Nitrite colors the blood brown in stead of red. The problem is, a dead fish gets brown anyway. Therefore, the main function of this trick would be to exclude nitirite poisening - the dead fish is still red, thus another reason killed the fish

You can make your own Melafix using 1ml Tea Tree Oil (Must be pure 100% TT Oil) and 100ml of DI water. then dose 1 teaspoon (5ml) per 10USG.

Shake it well before use to mix it



AC

also first thing in the future (well second thing, first thing is sell 2/3rd of the fish asap): add sand!

it's well known that Corydoras wich are kept on a clear glass floorspace are often prone to fungal and bacterial infections.
they can be kept, but it's a much higer risk

also: in a normal tank the substrate is where most of the benificial bacteria live.....

so a bare tank without a sandy substrate will never have a real biological balance or a working nitrogen circle.

that's why tanks at the LFS or wholesaler or ex/importer are changed so often. a real good importer/wholesaler etc does a 50% change every single day or houses less fish in decorated tanks with substrate on the floor.

having larger, carnivorous fish in the other tanks is no excuse. even before you bought the Corydoras the tanks were already beyond overstocked.
keeping the wallet shut and staying out of the LFS is a better cure

but the first thing you should do if you manage to kill the disease is to sell/trade/give away at least 2/3rd of all the fish in that tank.

could it be ammonia burn? iv seen it the red mark on other fish before.

Supercoley1 wrote:You can make your own Melafix using 1ml Tea Tree Oil (Must be pure 100% TT Oil) and 100ml of DI water. then dose 1 teaspoon (5ml) per 10USG.

Shake it well before use to mix it



AC

It makes sense. Do you have any suggestion for home made pimafix too?

The only disease I know which kills a healthy fish in two days is the virulent form of columnaris. With that generally the smallest fish dies first (simply because they're weaker), and typically only the larger and more resilient fish will survive long enough to show symptoms.
While I can't rule out that's what happened here, the distribution of deaths and the apparent inflammation of the gut wall of the corys doesn't fit.

The other possibility is poisoning. The inflamed gut wall is interesting, as it suggests internal haemorrhaging. The only times I've seen very rapid deaths across a wide range of species and associated with intestinal problems, have been when I've fed my fish rotten food. Did you by any chance feed your fish frozen bloodworms (chironomid larvae), or other frozen food, the day before the deaths?
Because if I was a gambling man, I'd bet your fish died of food poisoning, and frozen bloodworms especially are notorious for being sold half-rotted.

aserdar wrote:It makes sense. Do you have any suggestion for home made pimafix too?

Melafix = 1ml 100% tea tree oil + 100ml DI/RO water (Check the label. There are different variants of tea tree oil. you want 'Cajaput Oil / Melaleuca leucadendron Oil)

Pimafix = 1ml 100% West Indian bay oil (Pimenta Racemosa)+100ml DI/RO water

Hope that helps

EDIT - Just to add 4 days after the first fry hatched there are 119 wrigglers

AC

Whoa- sorry about your loss. Overstocking is not a crime as long as you do the water changes religiously- I know many other fish keepers are guilty of that but won't admit it. Go over to monsterfishkeepers.com and they got a thread going on about that


Others are right about the bare bottom- I was told that its not good for the fish for reasons stated above and the reflection of the light bouncing up is very stressful.


Good luck in finding and containing the problem.