keeping plants alive

[hotsauce4887]

I'm not knew,You may know of me as hotsauce48,untill my cookies got deleted.But anyway I'm thinking of moving on to some real simple plants like micro swords, mayaca,radican sword and wanted to know if fertilizer is enough. My fish are pretty simple too BN pleco,neon tetras and glowlites with some guppies.You guys/gals have any tips on keeping them alive?

[MatsP]

Good lighting is always going to help keep the plants happy. It may not be the ONLY thing they need, but it's a good start. Also make sure you have a timer on the lights, as leaving the lights on for too long can lead to problems with algae [shouldn't be a problem if you have a large enough Ancistrus tho'].

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Mats

[panaque]

The limiting factor for plants in aquaria is almost always CO2 so increasing that usually makes a big difference. Planted tank fanatics will tell you to increase CO2 to very high levels, combined with high light intensity and fertilisers. However, for most plants just increasing it a bit is enough to ensure healthy growth. A yeast/sugar based system like this one for example http://www.marinedepot.com/ps_AquariumP ... ystem.html works well. Unless you have lots of fast growing plants and very strong lights and lots of CO2 you shouldn't need any fertilisers.
Frank

[MatsP]

However, any addition of CO2 will also reduce the (apparent) oxygen level in the tank, as the fish will have a harder time to release it's CO2 from it's blood.

Also, DO NOT run CO2 at night.

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Mats

[panaque]

However, any addition of CO2 will also reduce the (apparent) oxygen level in the tank, as the fish will have a harder time to release it's CO2 from it's blood.

Also, DO NOT run CO2 at night.

This is only a problem with high levels of CO2. I should have explained that you need to make sure there is plenty of watercirculation. This ensures that oxygen levels remain high and CO2 doesn't get too high because it 'gasses out' very easily (this is why plant fanatics tell you to minimise circulation). That way there should also not be a problem with running CO2 at night (you can't switch a yeast system off). I speak from experience that this works well for the plants and does not affect the fish. Keep a close eye on the fish though: if they breath heavily in the morning before the lights come on then you need to reduce CO2 production (less yeast) and/or ensure increased gassing out at night by having an additional airstone on a timer to come on when the lights go out.

[MatsP]

Well, let me just clarify a little bit:
The gas exchange between the fish's blood and the water, which replaces CO2 in the blood with O2 in the water (just like we humans let off CO2 and take in O2 in our lungs), works on the differential between one and the other. If the levels of CO2 in the water is higher, then the exchange will be slower - there is no two ways about that. The other factor is that if you have CO2 in the water, the water will not take up O2 quite as well.

This is exactly the same reason as why, when you sit in a room with lots of people, you get tired if the ventilation isn't very good.

Obviously, more circulation/aeration of the water will increase the oxygen levels of the water, and reduce the levels of CO2 in the water. But if you do that WELL, then the CO2 injection will not have much effect at all - to plants or fish. And if that is the case, then we have to ask "Why do it in the first place?". If you actually, noticeably change the CO2 levels, then you will change the conditions for the fish.

Planted tanks are a compromise between what is best for the fish and what is best for the plants.

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Mats

[panaque]

Mats, you're obviously no fan of adding CO2 to tanks and I don't want to start an argument about that! I am ever so slightly offended though by your statement that planted tanks are a compromise between what is good for fish and what is good for plants. It kind of suggests I am an irresponsible fishkeeper and I can ensure you that I am positively obsessed with the well-being of my fish. I think that plants can improve conditions for the fish in various ways (e.g. nutrient uptake, hiding places, substrate for biofilm for Otos to feed on) without compromising the fish. But we can agree to disagree on that.
The original question was whether fertilisers are enough to keep plants alive. The answer to that is no, but a little bit of CO2 can do wonders, if used carefully.
Frank

[MatsP]

Frank,

I completely agree that plants do great things. I keep many enough fish in most of my tanks that adding extra CO2 isn't necessary - heavy stocking creates enough CO2 in itself [now, we can have a long debate what the right stocking level is, and whether I follow my own advice that I give to others, etc, etc].

I do believe that a planted tank is a compromise - you either get good conditions for the fish or good conditions for the plants, or somewhere inbetween. That's not to say that a planted tank is bad for the fish in any way - just that you have to be AWARE that you are making decisions where a change may benefit one side, and the opposite change will benefit the other. Awareness of the consequences of your decisions is what I'm trying to achieve.

And of course, if we are discussing CO2 injection, a large portion of the question will be "how do you regulate it so that you get it right".

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Mats

[panaque]

Well said.

[Martin S]

I have not used CO2 in my tanks but to date have been very successful in keeping plants alive using standard T8 tubes. The ony thing I did for about 6 weeks was add a daily dose of EasyCarbo, and this killed back the black algae i was starting to see on my anubias and lily leaves. I need to reduce my light times after having moved to a T5 as am now seeing green filamentous algae. I have lots of new shoots appearing almost daily for the straight vallisineria, i have new shoots on both my anubias nana and barteri. My cryptocorynes and java moss are also both doing well. As noted, I don't so anythings special, so have been very lucky. I'm not saying everyone should have the same luck, but think that choosing healthy plants, preferably shop bought rather than posted from an internet site), a good depth substrate and 10-12 hours lighting a day should produce growth in some plants - you may have to trial a few types, but vallis, amazon swords etc should do reasonably well. I find using easycarbo a simple way to add CO2 without all the fuss of adding a CO2 unit. I may just be lucky, but am sure if i can do it, most people should have no problems. Obviously, if you start working with tanks where the water depth is >18", then you may need to consider T5, or other, more expensive lighting, but the standard aquariums should be fine if you replace the T8 bulb(s) regularly (about every 5-6 months), you should have some success.
Martin

[Bas Pels]

I do believe that a planted tank is a compromise -

I wonder whether I can agree on this

Most of my tanks are planted, but I do nothing special for the plants. In other words, the plants will only survive if they manage to accept the conditions I provide, and in this I only think of the fishes

However, I find plants like Echeria densa, Hygrophyla polysperma, many Echionodorus species do thrive in my tanks.

So, I think if one tries enough plants, one might find plants which accept the conditions your fish requires.

Obviously, an unlighted tank for a RTC, or a tank with plant eating fish will not allow plants

[MatsP]

Bas,

I do think you agree that if you were to "try more difficult plants" [with the intention of actually keeping those plants alive, that is], then you would have to adopt some of your practices to suit the plants, which would (taken to a certain extreme) possibly interfere with the wellbeing of the fish.

But like you, I keep plants in all my tanks except one [my malawi tank has no plants - not for any particular reason really - just the way it was when I got the fish and the decorations to go in there]. But if the plants "don't make it", I don't do things to make the plants survive - I just try some different ones.

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Mats

[Bas Pels]

Bas,

I do think you agree that if you were to "try more difficult plants" [with the intention of actually keeping those plants alive, that is], then you would have to adopt some of your practices to suit the plants, which would (taken to a certain extreme) possibly interfere with the wellbeing of the fish.

Mats

Here I certainly agree to - and therefore, as you guessed, I don't try them often

I am, however, very glad my Eichornia azurea manages to survive. The thing I did was keeping a lamp precicely above the growing plant. I did, unfortunately, not manage to expant the number of plants

[MatsP]

I think we can summarise this as:
- You can keep plants alive with very little effort, as long as you choose plants that are "easy to keep".
- You can keep more difficult plants, with more effort, and in doing so, you may also have to decide which is more important: Fish or plants.

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Mats

[L number Banana]

Hi, This may be handy, it's the co2/PH/KH chart that some people use to check that both o2 and co2 levels are good for the fish and plants. It's not gospel but many people who have heavily planted tanks FOR the fish they keep seem to use this. Personally, I'm still trying to get my head around it

http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_co2chart.htm

The only other tip I know about is that many people don't unplug the yeast bottle but have a surface air spray thingy or bubbler set on a timer to come on at night. There's lots of info for the real science nuts on the Krib I think, can't recall this early in the morning. I'll try to find it and post the link.

Good luck!

[flash]

HI all
a while ago i made one of those bio reactors using sugar,yeast etc.it worked fine my plants grew and even the old ones looked healthy.after a few months my brother came to visit and i showed him my new toy.My brother is a home wine maker and he told me about how when wine ferments it gives off co2.So in my fish house i have a planted tank fed with co2 from a gallon of blackberry wine,Two birds one stone.
cheers flash