PlanetCatfish.com

Hi, and thanks for being here.
My fellow (sex uncertain), is probably about 10 inches long and under 3 years old -had him since baby). We had, what I consider, an event to which he hasn't felt like himself, since; and hasn't eaten or pooped in nearly a month that I can tell. See below.

1. Water parameters
a) Temp: 77 Deg F. (25 C)
b) pH: 7.2
c) GH.: ?
d) KH: ?
e)Ammonia, Nitrate, Nitrite, levels.: only tested for Nitrite, 0 ppm (Ammonia was fine in the past, tho)
f) Water change frequency: average 1 per week, right now 2 xs
(Most LFS's will check your water and give a list of readings).

2. Tank set up
a) Size: 30 gal
b) Substrate: small gravel, with med large rocks
c) Filtration: power filter (2 large filter system)
d) Furnishings: decorative plastic rock of 13 inch by 7 inch by 2.5 inch deep
e) Other tank mates: One angel fish
f) How long has it been set-up? approx 5 years
g) When was the last new fish added? 2007 (15 months ago)
h) Foods used and frequency?
Usually drop in 3 to 4 algae wafers every few days depending on tank algae production.

3. Symptoms / Problem description
About 1 month ago, I discovered the tank heater had been wiggled at connection and was off. I had no idea how long it had been off (one day or even a week?). Pleco had seemed a little inactive and his food (algae wafers) were wasting. I immediately plugged in the heater and let it go. That evening I checked it and it seemed too hot to the touch so I turned it down a few degrees (thinking thermostat on heater might be old). (FYI, During this period, the room temp was somewhere between 65 and 72 - autumn with the air systems off. I later let the small 10 gal tank go without heat to check its temp and it read 72 (22 C ?)) I deduced that the cooler water may have set his metabolism lower and he wasn't hungry. However, with the warmth, he took a long time to start 'moving'. The skin near his head seemed a little different in color or texture, so I dropping some stress coat over him to help protect. Seeing this, I wondered if I had overheated him. During the first week of this 'recovery' he sat along the bottom with his mouth on the filter intake tube (could not see if he was 'sucking'. As he started moving in the 2nd or 3rd week, he started almost sucking along the wall again, but it wasn't very dirty, and I saw no poop. Shortly after this period, he started lingering along the top of the water, so he could breath air, and if he dropped below, he would push up and gasp a mouthful. His stance reminded me of a whale in a vertical position, letting the flow of the filter outlets suspend him til it moved him too far and he would make his way back to that place of suspension.
I have still seen no poop nor have I seen him trying to eat the algae wafers like he used to. I am sorry I did not log the series of changes in order to be more specific. He occasionally shutters; and sometimes dashes around the tank; but usually just sits near the top. (Actually a few days ago, for a few days, he was huddling near the airstone bubbles.) His fins are finally started to show a ragged look, but I don't see problems. But he is getting very weak I think. I haven't seen him suck on anything

4. Action taken (if any)
The algae wafers continue to get old and slimy, but I only pull them out every few days. Right now, the filters are getting clogged about every week; so I am changing them. Doing about one 25% and another 33% water change every week in case I have too much organic material on the bottom - and hope that it helps (oxygen levels). I may be setting in algae wafers a little often, hoping to offer him some fresh options. Last week-end, the guy at the store thought perhaps Shrimp pellets would entice him to eat. (It hasn't).

5. Medications used (if any)
None

I have felt he was getting too big for the tank for the last year, but cannot figure out who I could trust with his life. (Now look what I have done! Gave him temp changes in two directions (the heating was surely too fast)) I was hoping he would only grow as big as the tank would support. Wasn't sure of appropriate dimensions for a happy fellow and find it hard to give a pet away. Have you any advice? Should I offer him some fresh lettuce or broccoli? Take him to a vet if I can find one? I may be too late with this query.

If you were to test the nitrate levels, I'm pretty sure they are astronomical. A 30g tank is nowhere near big enough for a 10" fish of any sort [except possibly plastic ones . It may help if you are using two external canister systems, but you are still going to have high levels of nitrate produces by this type of fish. I keep one in a ~50g tank (with large surface area), around that sort of size, with a Eheim 2217 filter on it, and it's critical to do large water changes frequently on this tank to prevent it from going bad.

I's also hazard a guess that your fish is or the very similar (they are only possible to tell apart based on the belly pattern).

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Mats

MatsP Thanks,
I do have a 6 deal test strip I don't trust alot.
It is reading 20 or under on the nitrates. I will pick up a better test kit on that this evening. I also got some wood, - grapewood and mopani, in process of boiling and letting it set in another empty tank. I am afraid to add plants right now since he may 'need oxygen'. I do have plants in aquarium now and then over the years, - none for roughly the last 9 months (they don't do well).
I spent the morning searching thru all the L's here in the e-catalog. Because of his body shape and the dorsal fin rays (more than 8?)I think you are right. Since he is stressed I don't want to handle him to check unless its important. Don't see dots on his belly, might be disjunctivus, but his pattern looks a little different.
Also took some photos today. I'll send a few. (Will try to figure out how.) I would be happy to try to find him a good home - and will try to help him in any way. I'm sad to say I misjudged his length. He looks to be the full '12' inches rather than what I first reported. He spent so much of his life, hanging on the rock and on the intake tube I hadn't noticed how large he had become.

Evening Update: I placed a cucumber slice (flat round slice) on suction cup at top where he is hanging out. Within 15 minutes his dorsal went up and he tried to play tug of war to get at the cucumber. He may be interested in eating but not sure he can grab it! A half slice is rubber banded to a rock and is on the bottom since they tend to float right now. What is best for him to be able to access and how large or small should I cut it. Will he tear at it or what delivery method shall I use since he hasn't roamed the bottom lately? What veggie is best for his weakened system? I'll keep reading everything I can find....

Sunday update:
The Nitrate level reads between 5 and 10 ppm.
He didn't really do anything with the cucumber over the last 24 hours so it is out now. I added some squash but he hasn't looked interested in it. I added a splitter to the airline so we could have more air action. He is looking rather tired tonight, but he was pretty active today. He visited the aquarium walls a half dozen time (with his lips) and tried to hang out after I had done a water change.
Hopefully...
I'd like to thank the site and people for all the info listed here. Maybe he will make it thanks to all the ideas.

Monday morning update:
Plecie is still with us. Sometimes I think he is feeling better, sometimes not sure. I have continued to do tank water changes each day, basically trying to make sure the substrate is clean of toxic material. In my limited understandings, I ended up believing it was fine to have some material within the gravel; but maybe that is the factor in his choosing the top of tank now. I have been trying to make the tank more home-y (after seeing more pics here), and added 2 small plants last night, also hoping he might find something he liked to nibble from them. Still no sigh of poop but occassional (shortlived) interest in eating cucumber. Set (blanched) broccolli in there for about 6 hours yesterday, too. I will add the wood pieces tonight - hoping to leave maximum floor space for him. Maybe he will decide life is worth living. The angel is weathering all this just fine so far.

I think your plan of action is a good one. I would probably keep an eye out for parasites, such as gill-flukes or some such - because that could very well be a cause. The "likes the upper waters" is definitely a sign of "not enough oxygen in the blood", which is either a water quality problem, or some sort of gill-parasite. There are quite a few "wide-range" parasite medications - but check that it's safe with catfish/scaleless fish [you may think that a Pleco has scales, but it just looks that way, the "scales" on a pleco are actually bone-plates inside the skin].

--
Mats

Thanks for your thoughts. Wed. update: (and questions)
Plecie is hanging in there and seems a little more active. I placed both pieces of wood in thank last night (why does the grapewood get so white slimey?). He still shudders a few times a day and languishes at the top of the tank, overall. He likes the corner I sit near (computer station), probably because of airstone and currents, but maybe because he is talking to me some of the time.
I don't see any questionable items around the gills, tho admittedly I may not be good at 'looking'. His upper back area has some reddish tinted rather bubblish tissue (very small - like less than 1/32nd of inch (smaller than a mm) in a few places that I believe are lesions where he banged against the aqaurium lid. I am thinking a parsitic fluke would look whitish or clear? I have been having trouble researching pics and info that relates to my P pardalis/disjunctis. Shall I heat up the tank and throw in a little salt? Or trust the med manufacturers to give me correct label info? I hate to move him to the smaller tank for longterm treatment with heat, etc... given the angelfish (and dislike stressing him more, obviously). Suggestions or links appreciated! (I cannot upload pics cause they seem too 'large' (pix)?). Do these guys like meat occasionally - trout or something?

The fish will probably get enough protein from leftovers of the Angel's feed.

Temperature looks OK.

I personally prefer "proper medication", and if the manufacturer says that the medication is unsafe for catfish, then it almost certainly is. If it says "safe for catfish", then it should be safe to use. Manufacturers that get this wrong are usually not in business for very long.

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Mats

You do not need as large a pack as this, but Metrondiazole is an efficient medication often used for plecos and other catfish.
http://www.thatpetplace.com/pet/group/11018/product.web

--
Mats

Mats thanks for advice again.
I felt an urgency to medicate and found the microndiazole, tho it was in packets of 250 mg, with 75 mg of Praziquantel. With no package info other than dosing; recommended one packet per 10 gal; I chose to use not quite 2 packets for my 30 g tank, hopefully used about 425 mg. I had read somewhere online to use between 100 and 200 mg per 10 gal. And also read plecos were med sensitive. So crossing my fingers and toes ... I read nothing about raising temps in tank, so haven't done that. Let me know if you think of something. Box also said I should re-dose in (after) 48 hours and place new carbon filter back on.

Sunday Night update:
Plecie has made it thru the 2 required dosings and I was finally able to change some water (after the 2nd 48 hour period) tonight. He seems much more comfortable - even has a leisurely cruising stride as he swims around the tank (tho still mostly at the surface). Angel seems fine, too. I'll hold tight for a few days and do small water changes experiment with food, -and watch.
Thanks again for your help.

best wishes to him and you.

Monday night: Very exciting news! Plecie is munching on his cucumber now and then. I stuck it at water surface with suction cup and have seen him nibble 3 times tonight. Any food suggestions for our (hopefully) recovering P disjunctus? (Something enticing but easy on his digestive tract?) Also, -is it alright to let the fresh food stay in tank for 1 day or should I limit it to 12 hours?
Thank you thankyou

I learned all the feeding here:

http://www.planetcatfish.com/shanesworl ... cle_id=294

and here

http://www.planetcatfish.com/shanesworl ... cle_id=171

I like to weight it down for them with a stainless fork or screwcumber. My commons fav food is zuchinni (which I leave in overnight, put in after lights out.) cucumber, over night is fine, mango, I only leave this in for a few hours not overnight, mushroom, overnight is fine, romaine lettuce, baby spinach leaves, overnight both on those, cantelope watermelong honeydew melon all of the melons I cut leaving about an inch of the actual fruit above the rind. I only leave thse in a few hours.

Just to name a few.

Thanks for your help. Friday Update (two weeks since first post!):
Plecie is better but still hanging around at the top of tank. A transparent white circle about 10 mm diameter showed up this week; and he isn't showing much appetite yet. The angelfish seems to love cucumber is is getting too fat (a little concern about that, too).
I am guessing we should try an antibiotic but would appreciate advice on what to use for 'pleco'. Spare 10 g tank is too small for Plecie, - I therefore hope to leave Angel in tank with him if possible. Could Maracyn 2 (Minocycline) help? I did read some threads which recommended doubling the length of treatment (even to two weeks), but might have referring to a different species.

Rinaag,
I have to say that your thread is one of the best documented "I need help" postings I have seen. Thanks for that.

I have found that anytime I notice fish not looking "right," but with no obvious symptoms, the best course of action is a large, immediate water change (75-80%). I have spoken with people at public aquaria and nearly all swear by the large water change as an initial action when there is no clear illness (i.e. ick, fungus, wounds, etc). Unless I can make a distinct diagnosis I prefer to avoid medications unless the animal is clearly going to parish.

As stated above a 10" loricariid is a lot of bio impact in a 30 gallon aquarium. If I were maintaining such a large fish in a tank that size I would be doing one or two 60% water changes weekly.

I would continue with twice large weekly water changes for a couple of weeks and watch the fish closely. I actually use the regime every time I use any medication as various medicines can greatly impact the tank's biofiltration. The medication may do good, but then the animals become ill again because the tank's biofiltration (good bacteria) have been wiped out.

If it is necessary to medicate again, you might try Binox
http://www.thatpetplace.com/pet/group/11027/product.web

This product treats gram negative and gram positive bacteria as well as fungus. I believe these are the most likely culprits as no new fish have been introduced. Disease that comes on after adding new fish is often due to a virus or parasite. However, since you have not added new fish I would concentrate on a possible bacteria or fungus.

-Shane

Monday Update: Thanks especially to MatsP, andywooloo and Shane.
Plecie is still with us. Over the holiday I did 1 large waterchange and 2 smaller, and 2 filter changes (clogged up quickly!). There was not much on the sponge filters perhaps due to the frequency but they still seemed to have the usual precipitates (just less of a load).
I believe I saw a couple of short (1 inch) poops that looked kinda greenish, but the terminal end showed a little clear mucous with spot of reddish brown (could it be some infection or just response to empty alimentary canal...?) I am really happy to see some excrement - I don't see him eat; so I am very worried. He seems to be moving around with more strength and attitude but still hangs up at the top usually with his front end underneath the outflow of the power filter. It must feel good to him.
I'll follow Shane's instructions and do another large waterchange in a few days. The pH is trying to push up to 7.5 for some reason (thus the extra 'small' waterchange).
Thanks again for your support.

good to hear he is still with you. has he made any attempt to eat any fruit or veg? Maybe he wants more current or oxygen? hanging out at the top? do not be scared if he poops white after cuke or zuchinni. my common poos whatever colour he eats. His fav now is mango. Don't angels like warmer then 77 degrees? I do not have any just seem to remember something about them with warmer temps.

HI A.
I have only seen an interest in cucumbers - but have also offered apple, sweet potato, zuchinni, brocolli. I am trying to switch the feeding to night hoping the angelfish won't get any fatter. (She likes the fresh food.) Yes, Plecie still prefers the upper water as mentioned, probably for the air. Angels at my house are happy with the 76 to 78 - I haven't looked up their specs for a long time.

Sunday late:
Plecie is still at his favorite station, underneath the outflow water. He seems to be able to navigate better for the most part, perhaps he feels a little better. I finally may have formatted a picture that might upload here, and thought you might like to meet him. Tried feeding him some frozen brine shrimp (1 tiny cube) yesterday, but he didn't look interested. I still leave available a cucumber, or zuchinni, or something in case he does want to eat. Worried he is not eating...

That redness of the skin, is that actually on the fish, or just an artifact of the photo? If so, I'd suggest some antibacterial treatment.

--
Mats

MatsP
The red and deep red on his back is function of the light, but in the last few weeks his pectoral fin spine has become red, - I thought it might be from the meds given to him a few weeks ago. Shall I try to photo it again this evening? That stuff was sure hard on my hand (during tank changes). I saw the Binox at one of the LFS ...
Thanks, - Maurina

Here are pics from today. Let me know if the redness could be something in particular? On second thought, the color may have been this way for a (long) while. I don't keep the tank light on unless I need to see 'something'.

He seems weaker today - but I've not been home much. I don't mean to make him suffer.
--Thanks again,
M

Thursday Night:
Plecie is just into his third dose of erythromycin (API, 200 mg per 10 gal recommended/24 hrs, 4 doses) and seemed more comfortable even last night. Tuesday morning he was fading fast - urgent need for that next intervention. Its so hard for inexperienced people to weigh out the best action - critter life in the balance! Couldn't find the binox (must have dreamed that I saw it locally), so hoped this might be a reasonable alternative. (Again fret fret - searching thru archive/posts here another 4-6 hours trying to filter what might be applicable to him.)
As mentioned, since the tank is in my breakfast room right by the computer, we commune while I'm 'home'. As I turned off the lights last night, after much curiosity and movement, he allowed himself to drift down into a resting position on the bottom. It even seemed like some of the earlier movement was him thinking about attaching himself to the glass wall (ie positioning). I perceived that as a sign that he was feeling less stressed and more like himself.
I think I am seeing a little poo now and then (when vacumn the gravel). And so far Dear Angel is holding up to all this ongoing 'change' within the tank.
So thanks again for all your thoughts and all the threads here that give us such great info - Hopefully to give you more good news in another 4 days! (Oh yeah - Larger hand me down tank not available. May have to buy afterall.)
MatsP, thanks again!
Maurina

Hello - I sure enjoy perusing this site. Thank you for all of you.
Plecie seems to be lounging atop the white rock that allows him to prop near the top (still), but I am hoping it a good sign that he no longer has to hover atop the air bubbles or under the inlet water stream. He swims in a controlled way. I wonder if his fins will recover because they are heavily damaged (especially pectoral).
Saturday, as we wrapped up that med dosing sequence, I set in the filters and did a large water change. -He really wasn't looking too well even then. I re-set the few plants and another wood piece and they seem to have had a dampening effect on the rate/velocity of the water circulation, which in turn, has helped him to relax more (rather than constantly having to drift and reposition in the 'current').
I hope to leave him be, - time to heal, - with lots of well wishes and water changes. Angel is well.
Maurina

Friday update end of week 5):
Plecie actually was interested and ate some of the (frozen) brine shrimp mini ice cube as it melted a few days ago! Again yesterday, I set a few near his mouth, and he took in about 1 with some interest. So I was very relieved and hopeful on that point!
But I write now with a little concern about him being on the bottom of the tank this morning. I bothered him, to lift to see if he was OK since I could not stay home long. He was fine, and settled back down on the bottom. This is all so new to us, after nearly 2 months of languishing at the top of the tank... Thus, I am really hoping he feels better. I know he doesn't belong at the top but I am used to talking with him ...
I assume it is best if I keep doing water changes very often -- to keep things nice and clean for his healing. His fins still lookreddish but not quite as much (?) - I'll take some more pics over the holidays. He had banged his nose on the top of the tank (? about 10 days ago) and has a missing piece of skin at that tip of his nose. Is there nothing I can do for that?
Hopefully the next time I can write to say he is doing great!!
Thanks to all.

Plecie died while I was at work - afterall. Thought he was getting stronger.

I'll bury him tomorrow, as I have more work to go to now.
Maurina

I am sorry he passed on.

I'm sorry to hear that, although I must admit that fish that doesn't recover within a few days have a poor record in my book.

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Mats