big tank (lots of questions on different subjects)

Zack · Post by **Zack** » 02 Jul 2003, 03:54

Hey guys/gals,

Im in for two days from salmon seinging, iv been out for about three weeks thats why i havent been around here,the fishing pretty good and the moneys better,Im going long lining for halibut in a week and i'll get about four thousand dollars, I need three thousand for new a-arms,suspension,and a trinity engine for my banshee but i'll have a thousand left and would like to get another tank, a BIG tank. I live in a two story house with no basement my tank room is on the bottomb floor, how big of a tank would you reccomend, I'd like to keep a few large plecos,fox face pims,ornate pims,and maybe some lima shovle nose cats. Im thinking between 150 and 250 gallons, what is the biggest standard size tank?? As i know standard sizes are way cheaper. Also i want a tank thats not tall but long and wide (deep). Something like six feet long,two feet deep,and two feet tall.For a tank this big is it safe to build my own stand?? Do any company's make lighting fixtures big enough for a six foot tank or will i have to rig up something of my own? I know the tank itself should actualy be the one of the cheaper pieces of this whole puzzle but how much should i expect to pay for a 150 gallon or 175 gallon all glass tank?? What about filtration?? What kind and how much will it cost?? I will also be going salmon fishing again in august when the other runs come in so if i cant get it all at once i'll have some money then to finish up my project. I've been thinking about the stan and thaught that maybe i should make it about six inches bigger than the tank on all sides to help spread the weight out more on the floor,sorta like the idea behind snowshoes. Ok now for the fish. In a 175 gallon tank how many of the species i mentioned above could i keep?? I was thinking two fox face and maybe four ornate pims? Plus what else? What other bigger south american fish could i keep with these cats?? I dont want oscars or other big aggressive cichlids, would a couple rays do alright or is this tank too small for them and the cats?? what about a black ghost? Will a full grown black ghost be too big?? What about lerius or mormatus? (im sure those last two are spelled wrong and i know they arent the full names but im hoping you guys will know what im talking about). Oh has anyone ever spray painted the back of tank?? The tank will either be in my room or in the computer room with the fifty five and the thirty five will this be too much weight for one room to bare?? Ok i think thats all i can think of but i am positive i will have alot more questions as i go along, Im still not sure if i will end up doing this but i would certainly like to and am just trying to figure everything out before i do, do it. Thanks guys and sorry for SO MANY questions and rambling so much.

Post by **Barbie** » 02 Jul 2003, 04:35

Hi Zack,

I'll see if I can answer a few of your questions at least. A 6 x 2 x 2 tank is marketed by All Glass Aquariums as a 180 gallon. That's the largest ready made tank you can buy in Alaska, that I know of, that isn't acrylic. If you don't purchase the stand with the tank, there will be no warranty for the tank from the manufacturer. Its definitely worth it to spend the money on the stand, IME.

Depending on when your house was built, it should be able to support the tank as long as you set it up on a main load bearing wall. If you aren't sure which of the walls in your house are braced as load bearing, go with the external wall. The idea of a stand that distributes weight more is great, but it won't allow you to easily reach into the tank to clean it, and trust me, with a tank that big, that quickly becomes an issue.

All Glass sells 3 foot power compact light strips that you could order from one of the mail order magazines for relatively cheap prices, even shipped to you there. It will take abit to get there, but would definitely be the easiest method to light a tank that size.

As for filtration, that's going to need to be what you personally prefer. I used 2 AquaClear 500's and a powerhead on a hydro V sponge for my stingrays in the 125. I've also heard nothing but good about Eheim canisters, and or any of the large volume canister filters. 2 or even 3 methods of filtration would definitely be the best, in case you have a failure of one at some point. It keeps your biobed safe until you can get a replacement part or filter, which I know can be a real issue for you out there.

You can also check under your house and add additional support under the beams that the tank would sit on. If you know of a local contractor, you might see if he'd come give you an estimate for adding those additional supports.

I spray paint the backs of most of my tanks, and I've really liked the effect I get when I use fleckstone paint. It makes the back look kind of marbled and gives it more depth. People think its a great idea when they see it. I just make sure to put on two coats of that, then one coat of high gloss black to block the light and provide a more durable finish.

As for the fish, a 180 gallon would be large enough for a couple rays, but you'd definitely limit what other fish you could keep with them that way. They aren't actually really aggressive, but they do prowl around quite a bit. I had discus and some large clown loaches and plecos with mine and they did great. I know that S.Allen has a few big cats with his and I think had a bit of trouble a little while ago. The rays would DEFINITELY be worth sacrificing some of hte big pims, IMO. They are truly neat pets. I got mine from http://www.frybabies.com and they also usually have a good selection of cats and plecos to choose from. Hope all that helps,

Barbie

Post by **Dinyar** » 02 Jul 2003, 04:49

The biggest standard tank size in the US is 180 gallons. No matter how large a tank you get, it will soon be too small. Homo sapiens' urge to acquire knows no limit.

These are six foot tanks. They are lit using 2 x 36" light strips. Power compact lighting is the sensible way to go, even if you don't plan on a planted tank. It's brighter, lighter, more energy efficient and cheaper in the long run.

Ordinarily, you wouldn't want to build your own stand for a tank this size unless you're an experienced carpenter. Filled with gravel and water, it will weigh about a metric ton. Imagine that coming crashing to the floor!

It may not be a good idea to put it close to your computer room, because (a) cheap, unshielded motors, which are sometimes used in aquarium filters, etc., can cause CRT screens to flicker, (b) the reflection of the tank lights on your monitor can be very distracting, (c) high humidity is not good for most electronics.

To my mind -- I know others may disagree -- your filtration options are either canister or wet-dry. Always build in redundancy, i.e., use more than one filter. Murphy's Law applies to filters.

As for the fish, IMHO, you will enjoy your tank more if you stock it with many moderately sized fish rather than a few large ones. Pimelodus ornatus certainly qualifies as a moderately sized fish. Sorry, I don't know what "black ghosts" or "fox faces" are.

Dinyar

Zack · Post by **Zack** » 02 Jul 2003, 07:58

Thanks Alot,

Well then a 180 gallon it shall be. Ok now for the follow up guestions

. Ok so im still not sure on any of the prices, i know i can look up the filters on my own but i have no idea as far as the tank prices and stand price?? Im no carpinter but my dad is quite the handy man and knows his way around a two by four so i think it should be safe enough,besides we'll build it as strong as it needs to be then double it

Ok so it sounds like it will be going in my room, is it alright to have it in a room with a tv and a playstation?? Yes i dont plan on having fish that are overly large,maybe a thirteen inch max size, by black ghost i mean black ghost knife fish and the fox face pim is goelda eques (spelling on the fox face is wrong im sure). As for the filters,i've thaught it over and i think i'll go with two or three appropiately sized canister filters and a power head or two in one end to stirr up the bottomb. The house is about thirty years old and a load bearing wall should be no problem. Barbie, if it wouldnt be too much trouble i'd like to see a picture of one of your tanks that are spray painted please. You mentioned S.Allen having some troubles with the cats and the rays,what kind of troubles were they?? Also while were off the topic of catfish, iv heard rays arent very hardy at all,do you find this to be true?? They need very strictly regulated water perameters iv heard, and since im not home all the time it may be hard to keep "perfect water". Ok moving on to the lighting, on other tanks I've used fixtures and bulbs iv baught at walmart

i wonder if maybe just two fifty five watt four foot flourecents with "home made" fixtures would work?? 110 watts per gallon is more than enough for catfish and maybe a few crypts or some other low light plant. You two have both been a huge help and sorry for jumping around so much but im just asking the questions as they spill no pour into my head. Thanks again.

Kostas · Post by **Kostas** » 02 Jul 2003, 09:07

Hi,
Black ghost knife fish would do great in your tank as long as you dont plan to breed any of your cats because their fry will be eaten by the ghost.

S. Allen · Post by **S. Allen** » 02 Jul 2003, 23:40

haha, rays, at least the large eyed species, excluding tigers, are hardier than most fish... The leopopdi/henlei and the motoro/var groups seem to be quite easily kept in many different water parameters. I was reading though a book on rays and it said not to let the nitrate above like 200 ppm... I don't know anyone who keeps their tanks at that high of a level... The rubbish about them being difficult to feed is just that. Mine eat shrimp, earthworms, scallops, clams, squid, catfish filet bits, sinking carnivore pellets, shrimp pellets, algae pellets, and pretty much anything that falls in the tank. I've had no luck with only 2 items, cucumber bits and imitation crab meat. They are not, what I would say is aggresive... so much as little bastards. they're intelligent and curious and ravenous, so you get a good mix of entertainment and screaming "NO! stop that!" they need daily feedings, or they start to get really scrappy with each other and other inhabitants, leading to the problem barbie alluded to earlier. They learned long ago plecos are an unsatisfying and painful meal, so they leave them alone, but I'm moving into a new house and missed a days feeding, they took a chunk out of the poor tigrinus' forhead between his eyes and they also snapped his filaments off... prior to that they'd been fairly nice to him, except he's a bit of a wuss about feeding, and they are not, so it took extra means to get him food. But, since the incedent things are back to normal, I just learned I have to be damn careful with feeding them well.

a 180 would probably be fine for a for a few rays(of the smaller species that is) and some other fish, I don't like the fact the tank's only 2 feet wide, but short of making your own there's no way around that.

Zack · Post by **Zack** » 03 Jul 2003, 05:54

Thanks S.allen,
What size tank are you're rays in?? Do they actualy have a mouth and teeth like saltwater rays and skates? (they must to take a chunk out of a tigrinus' head i suppose

) Ok so it sounds like the pims may be out of the question,is that right?? I had my heart set on some mid sized pims but the rays sound like they may be an even better pet. Hmm i cant get any fancy plecos around here and if im gonna order a couple rays than i wont have the money left to order them as well, what are some other good cats/mid water swimmers to keep with the rays?? Barbie mentioned clown loaches but it seems like if the pims would get bitten than the loaches would as well especialy looking like a "CLOWN". what about eels with the rays?? Even my limited knowledge of rays tells me that this probably wont work but i have two eels and if nothing else they could go in with the rays once they are big enough. Discus were also mentiones which seem like they would make interesting tank mates,the only question i have is would the discus be able to get enough food, i mean how ravenous are these guys? How about a black ghost knife?? Thats one fish i can get easily and cheap around here. Are the rays quick enough to catch live foods like smaller fish?? Motoros are the black ones with white spots am i right?? how big do they get, diameter? I know exactly what you mean with the NO,STOP THAT part, i've kept some large cichlids and you get quite a bit of that with them, lets just say that spikes on a pictus didnt detour them

. Are the rays very messy?? Poop alot?? Throw alot of food around like oscars?? Ok, im leaning towards three motoros (depending on max adult size) one black ghost knife and maybe two or three discus, how does this sound to you guys? The black ghost is still kind of iffy as iv always wanted to keep clown loaches and now that i might (fingers crossed) be getting a tank this big and iv heard they will make good tank mates it seems like a good idea, what do you guys/gals think?? And again im sorry for just randomly blotting out questions. Thanks alot. Im on my way to look at some ray info, besides frybabies (thanks for the link barbie) what are some other online stores with a good veriety of rays and plecos and such?? THANKS ALOT

Sid Guppy · Post by **Sid Guppy** » 03 Jul 2003, 08:34

Rays have teeth! Not like a shark, but crushing, flat molarlike teeth, and jawpower to match. Crunching live prawns, small lobsters, crayfish and mussels is what they do. Try to squeeze a live mussel with your bare hands (can't do it, can you?) and you get a clear impression how much pressure they can use! And they have a very efficient "blowing-sucking" technique, wich enables them to blow a hole in the sand, suck up the buried animals and crunch 'em to death!
Chunking bits out of other fishes is NO problem....

Fishes that can be combined with them should either be spiny (like a Pleco) or fast movers (like a Clownloach or a Ghostknife). I can well imagine them getting the better of a Tigercat; those are fairly slow, ambush hunters, not fast allround cruisers.
There is probably another reason that a Ghostknife will work; although it uses only low voltage electricity, usually very few fishes bother electric fish, except for other electric fish! They're VERY NASTY to each other, unless you get 8 or more of the same species. (actually that should be THE way of keeping them; a huge tank and a shoal).

Some Pims could well be used, but you should use the active swimmers like Pimelodus; forget a bout anything "shovelnosy" looking fish. Synodontis (the bigger ones) should do fine too; they tend to rest well away from the floor (if you put in proper rootwork), and they're fast, mobile swimmers. Highly unlikely to end up as meal. Spiny Pleco's, like Pseudacanthicus, that get moderately big are even more spiny than the Common Pleco and have character to match; those could work. And if there's wood around, perhaps a Panaque? Panaque and Rays DO share the biotope; Panaque's resting under, on top of or in big pieces of (bog)wood, rays using the sandy spaces between those rotting trees. Bigger, spiny thickskinned Dorads maybe? I think it's highly unlikely a ray would bother fishes like leathery Pterodoras granulosus or extremely spiny things like Acanthodoras spinosissimus, but I might be wrong.....

And fast swimmers that don't use any root- or sandspace and look great: Luciosoma, Methynnis, Alestes, Boulengerella, Triporteus, Balanthiocheilus etc?
I wouldn't try any eel, if I were you. The species around in the trade are almost all slow movers, and a significant number hide in the sand (like all Mastacembelids; Spiny eels)...since rays usually hunt buried prey; they might see those eels as an extra foodsource. The only eel they shouldn't bother is the Electric eel, but keeping that fish, makes cleaning the windows a hairraising experience!

S. Allen · Post by **S. Allen** » 03 Jul 2003, 21:15

Actually, motoro's are olive with orange spots... the leopoldi rays are the ones with white spots. Adult sizes seem to be similar, depending on who you trust. Barbie may be able to post a few pics of her motoros, but here are my leopoldis
http://scott.aaquaria.com/images/rays/big/01.jpg
http://scott.aaquaria.com/images/rays/big/08.jpg

Motoros are pretty too, and probably the better value, but I'm a sucker for white polka dots.

and yes, they have grinding teeth, like SG said, mine get treats of small malaysian trumpet snails on occassion, they love that, the fun of hunting in the sand.

And yes, they do have the ability to kill and eat other fish, actually, feeder goldies and guppies are quite commonly fed to them, though needlessly. They havea very interesting hunting pattern, if kept in a group, they make a net and follow the fish into a corner... The small eyed rays are said to eat only live feeder fishes, but I don't really believe that.

I would have to disagree with sid about the pims, I think they're a good match, I just made the mistake of missing a feeding. I also have a small juruense that will go in there soon enough, and a niger catfish is well enough armored to avoid problems I would hope.

Zack, currently they're in a 90 gallon with heavy filtration, since I'm moving I'm going to be setting them up in a small pond for time being, as my funds are way too limited for a large tank. I may be able to talk a buddy at the LFS out of a 180... he's got 2, and the second one houses a single 5 foot green moray... guys as big around as my thigh... I don't know what he's doing with him, probably another outgrown specimen he's a sucker for.

Post by **Barbie** » 04 Jul 2003, 05:06

Hi again Zack,

Here is a picture of the motoro rays. Of all the fish I've kept, these guys were easily on my top 3 favorites list, and that's truly saying something. I knew I liked them but I had no idea they'd be so interactive.

That picture was taken about 12 hours after I received them. They ate immediately the first time I fed them and were soon eating tetra bits and algae wafers that I put in to feed the other fish on the off days that I didn't feed them their shrimp or seafood mix that I bought at fred meyer. They loved night crawlers, and to be honest, were VERY unfinicky after what I was led to believe with all of my research.

This is a picture of the fleckstone paint that I was telling you about. This is the teal color that I did on a tank for my office. I had sold all the tanks I did in other colors, but I'm currently doing one in a dark sand, and it should be dry enough tomorrow to finish it and I'll try to get pictures then.

http://www.fishaholics.org/barbie/tealmarble.jpg

Its hard to tell in the pictures, but the varied colors in the background give the tank more depth. It also makes sure you never have to deal with any water spots on the back of the tank so it always looks clean and sharp.

Barbie

batho · Post by **batho** » 05 Jul 2003, 15:11

What is the smallest species of Ray that is available in the UK?
What size do they grow to?
What size tank would they need when fully grown?

Nobbley · Post by **Nobbley** » 05 Jul 2003, 23:02

Batho,

Try to pick up a copy of this month's (July 03) Practical Fishkeeping mag, there's a 4 page article on freshwater stingrays which is pretty informative. Lots of stuff on the different types, sizes, prices and UK stockists. If you can't find a copy then PM me and I may be able to help......

Regards,
Dave.

S. Allen · Post by **S. Allen** » 06 Jul 2003, 06:04

er, there's apparently a dwarf species of whiptail ray, which supposedly attains like 9 inches or less... BUT, I've never seen the smaller version for sale, and the very similar cousin, the regular whiptail gets 3 feet wide, with tail it probably hits 10 or 12 feet long fully grown. The difference is a tough one to distinguish to me... coloration is very similar, body shape exactly the same... but as far as I know, the blacktailed dwarf species isn't imported to the US, UK likely doesn't see them often either. They also tend to be the most difficult species, surpassing even the china and ceja rays, heh, and expensive anyhow.

the other small eyed rays, like the ceja, china, and mazana(sp?) are all 3 foot wide (from what I've read and heard ) lazy discs that lay on the substrate or against a tank wall waiting for a fish to swim into their target zone, then they use some magic ability to create the perfect current to lead the unlucky fish directly to the mouth. They have small eyes, even the largest specimens eyes are small, and they're a bit more centrally located on the disc than the other rays. This group never appealed to me as they appear to be particularly uninteresting in habits, and their coloration never has caught my eye, size, again, is a factor I guess.

Next area holds the large eyed rays, they tend to be smaller, generally, and much easier than the before mentioned fish, with the exception of the tiger ray, which is as difficult as the ones listed above and is listed as 3 foot wide max size(allthough lucanus says there are rumors of massive 5 foot wide individuals in the wild). the ones that fall into the large eyed category are the ones you'll see in shops most likely, motoro, hystrix, leopoldi, henlei, and the otorongo species, as well as a few semi-rare species(in the trade) like flower rays, estrella rays, things like that... these species tend to be in the under 2 foot category, with a few under 18 inches. I'm not sure on the size on flower rays, otorongo or estrella types, they're not etched in my mind well, and they do get a bit bigger than the 18 inches wide projected for leopoldi and motoro(sometimes a bit bigger)... hystrix escapes me now, but I'm thinking on the slightly smaller side, maybe 16 inches?

And no matter what your LFS tells you, a 4 inch "teacup ray" is not fully grown ;)

Anyway, nothing that's gonna be fully grown at under a foot that you're likely to find.

I may check practical fishkeeping out... But for good info on the keeping of south american FW rays, the book from aqualog is the way to go. They also have an identification guide similar to their L#'s one, but that one is really just pictures to drool over, or if you have a question about classification.

any other flatfish lovers think of other small species to suggest? There's a beautiful veitnamese FW or semi-FW ray that's got a whiptail and a wonderful pattern. something oxyranchus(sp?), that is a bit smaller, but according to fishbase it's a protected species.

Zack · Post by **Zack** » 10 Jul 2003, 01:20

Well i've got good news and bad news. First with the good,i made alot more money than i thaught i was going to make, and i baught two new suzuki lt 500 r's. The bad news, i wont have ANY money left over to spend on the fish. With the two new quads i wont have enough time to take care of another tank anyways let alone a huge tank like this. THANKS ALOT for all the help though.