Panaque suttonorum ID please!

[Zebrapl3co]

Hello,

Haven't post here for a long time, but one of my "kind-of" local shipping store have a couple of Panaque suttonorum for sale. They are said to be pickup from Colombia. But I don't think he bought it from the fish exporter as he's been know to make collection expedition to South America. Anyway, here is the link to a few pictures. Can some one ID them for me? I need some expert opinion here. But the second picture really does look like it's a suttonorum.

http://www.canadapleco.com/showthread.php?t=404

[Richard B]

P.Cochliodon?

[MatsP]

Yes, as you can read on the description of the two species, it appears that

Panaque cochliodon

and

Panaque suttonorum

have at some point been confused, and the latter name is usually used when in fact it is the former:

Generally identified as Panaque suttonorum (previously P. suttoni) and although similar, this iconic species does not closely match the description in Schultz's original paper. Shane Linder offers the following on the possible identity of this species: P. suttonorum, Schultz 1944, the scientific name commonly applied to the blue-eyed pleco in the aquarium hobby, is an incorrect identification. Schultz described live specimens of P. suttonorum as, "Uniformly greyish...basal two-thirds of the paired fins black, and the tips of these fins white; the posterior margin of dorsal is white, a narrow white bar across caudal peduncle, middle of caudal fin white then some black blotches; the tips of the rays are white." While P. suttonorum sounds like a very attractive fish, this is clearly not a description of the blue-eyed pleco found in the hobby. P. suttonorum is restricted to the Lake Maracaibo basin and no aquarium fishes have ever been exported from there. The fishes from that basin are very unique and if we had a shipment from there we would know it immediately. We also know that blue-eyed pleco shipments come from Colombia and P. suttonorum is restricted to Venezuela.

[Zebrapl3co]

Thanks, guys. So the elusive Panaque suttonorum continues to be ever elusive then.

[MatsP]

I think there are very few people in Europe/North America that has EVER seen a P. suttonorum. All specimens imported in recent years are by all accounts P. cochliodon.

Edit: And unless Venezuela decides to change it's policy on exporting wildlife, I expect it's not going to change.

--
Mats

[Yann]

Even if Venezuela offically forbids animal export... many species coming from Venezuela are being exported yearly via Colombia!!!

Cheers
Yann

[MatsP]

Even if Venezuela offically forbids animal export... many species coming from Venezuela are being exported yearly via Colombia!!!

Cheers
Yann

Sure, but those are collected in areas where Colombia and Venezuela share a border.

As you can see on the map in the below page, there's quite a distance from L. maracaibo to the Colombia border (and the map doesn't show this but it's quite high mountains along that bit of Colombia/Venezuela border).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Maracaibo

Not saying it can't happen, but if Shane says that there's been no known exports from that area, I'm inclined to believe that it's not likely to change anytime soon.

--
Mats

[Suckermouth]

Yes, as you can read on the description of the two species, it appears that

Panaque cochliodon

and

Panaque suttonorum

have at some point been confused, and the latter name is usually used when in fact it is the former:

Generally identified as Panaque suttonorum (previously P. suttoni) and although similar, this iconic species does not closely match the description in Schultz's original paper. Shane Linder offers the following on the possible identity of this species: P. suttonorum, Schultz 1944, the scientific name commonly applied to the blue-eyed pl*co in the aquarium hobby, is an incorrect identification. Schultz described live specimens of P. suttonorum as, "Uniformly greyish...basal two-thirds of the paired fins black, and the tips of these fins white; the posterior margin of dorsal is white, a narrow white bar across caudal peduncle, middle of caudal fin white then some black blotches; the tips of the rays are white." While P. suttonorum sounds like a very attractive fish, this is clearly not a description of the blue-eyed pl*co found in the hobby. P. suttonorum is restricted to the Lake Maracaibo basin and no aquarium fishes have ever been exported from there. The fishes from that basin are very unique and if we had a shipment from there we would know it immediately. We also know that blue-eyed pl*co shipments come from Colombia and P. suttonorum is restricted to Venezuela.

I'm confused. I don't see white tips and margins or black blotches on the fish in the Cat-eLog, though it is a rather beat-up specimen.

[MatsP]

I think the picture shows the genuine item, but I don't know for sure. Rio Catatumbo is definitely in the right area for the P. suttonorum.

--
Mats

[apistomaster]

Oliver Lucanus, http://www.belowwater.com has some definite P suttonorum for a very expensive price. $2000 each or $1800 in lots of four or more. He had about 30 specimens of the real thing, but I sure don't find them THAT interesting. If the price is much lower than Oliver's then they are not P. suttonorum. I know something about how these were obtained. They are exported from Colombia but collected in the Maracaibo drainage in Venezuela. These are from the Lake Maricaibo drainage, home to the true suttonorum. There is another closely related fish from the other side of the ridge that separates the Rio Magdalena drainage from the Maracaibo drainage. Some argue they are the same species but there are definite differences. While rare, they are not nearly as rare as the Maracaibo fish.

The statement in the cat-e-log that no P. suttonorum from the Maracaibo basin have been imported is not quite true. Those Oliver Lucanus has for sale presently are Maracaibo fish.

[Shane]

Larry,
I checked Oliver's page and could not find the fish. If anyone is likely to have pulled off a shipment from Maracaibo, I believe he would be the one to do it. So we can't say "never" but 30 specimens obtained once is still a very rare circumstance.
-Shane

[Jools]

Larry,
I checked Oliver's page and could not find the fish. If anyone is likely to have pulled off a shipment from Maracaibo, I believe he would be the one to do it. So we can't say "never" but 30 specimens obtained once is still a very rare circumstance.
-Shane

I've got a picture of the fish and Oliver tells me it was collected at the mouth of the Catatumbo. I'm interested in the comment above about fish from different side of a "ridge" being "different". What's the difference? Just because it's collected from the Catatumbo doesn't automatically mean it's P. suttonurum however, it does mean it's a very interesting find and it does bear closer examination of Fowlers description - one Olivers fish I see a fish with black edges to the fins, not lighter edges as Fowler mentions...

It's a confusing one because Fowler's description above mentions white tips to the dorsal and caudal fins - I've never seen that in a Panaque from the area. However, Oliver's picture (and some I've placed at present in P. cochlidon) do show white, or at least pale patches in the dorsal fin.



Jools

[Zebrapl3co]

Larry,
I checked Oliver's page and could not find the fish. ...

Oliver rarely post the fish he has on the site. He mostly deal with email or direct contact and he does not have a problem providing pictures if you are serious about your inquiry.

So are we all back at maybe maybe-not then.