Blue channel Catfish?

[Whiscash]

I recently brought a blue channel catfish, im keeping him in a ten gallon with a brown bullhead about the same length, until i get a larger aquarium set up.

now i have two questions.

the bullhead does not seem to like him at all (or maybe its fin rot) as the blue channels' tail has been eaten (not all of it, but its missing a good bit), my 1st question is, will he regrow it?

my 2nd question is, what is a blue channel catfish? im doubting its [url=http://www.planetcatfish.com/catelog/sp ... id=261what i thought it was[/url], as it has spots, and i've never seen spots on any of the tiny blue catfish i've caught while fishing, so is it some sort of special channel catfish bred for aquariums? and how big will it get?

EDIT: what i'd really like is an aquarium with more brown bullheads and nothing else, but the one i have i got from a friend who found it in a mud puddle in what used to be the lake that used to be here.

anyone know where I could get some? none of the aquarium stores around here seem to be able to order any.

[Shane]

I am guessing that your "blue channel cat" is in fact

Ictalurus punctatus

(punctatus means spotted). Also, since you bought him that pretty much confirms the ID as they are the only ictalurid regularly sold in the trade.
Caudal fins usually grow back but you need to solve the root issue that is causing it. A 10 gallon is way too small for even two small juvenile ictalurids. You'll need to be performing at least 50% daily water changes until you get that 250 gallon tank they will need as adults.
-Shane

[apistomaster]

I have caught juvenile(12-inch) channel cats while fishing and they had spots.

Your water temperatures are almost certainly warmer than their preferred range. Bullheads can tolerate warmer water and poorer water quality than channel cats and I think that is a contributing factor to the fin rot your channel cat has. I would not exclude the possibility that the bullhead is also damaging the channel cat's fins.
As it's common name implies, channel cats prefer strong cool currents, rich in oxygen. Bullheads prefer slower warmer water . They tend to inhabit slow or still waters of sloughs of rivers or ponds.

[Whiscash]

Ah, well its good to know what he is, thanks.

and i do hope his fin grows back soon, hes starting to look shabby.... i suppose i'll start changing the water alot more frequently like you said and see if that helps, if not then at least if he dies i can get a new one and not pick it up till i have the bigger aquarium set up.

well i did just buy a heater, but i thought it would be good to keep the ich off the fish, though the bullhead seemed perfectly fine without the heater, maybe i should just turn it off?

i turned off the heater, and now he seems much much happier! he doesn't swim as much when i turn the lights on in my room, and he actually ate, a nice big worm, and now he looks quite fat and happy thanks! i'd never have thought it was the heater.

[mr.gobie]

I have also had a channel catfish along with other cat fish and i also believed it was being atacked because the fins were roting. After a wile all my channel cats fins were roting and the orginal had no fins left! I would recomend bringing your cat in to the local fish store and show an expert because it seems like your cat has fin rot.

[kydsexy]

i see this hasn't been checked in a while. but bullheads are bullies. and they make a huge mes. be sure to have a large tank and plenty of filtration. if not given enough space they will attack other bullheads even. plus channel catfish are punks unless the other fish can be swallowed

Jay

[love_abomination]

plus channel catfish are punks unless the other fish can be swallowed

Jay

Really?
I've owned two channel catfish, and neither of them were punks, as you so eloquently put it.
They were both rather docile (although my second one, Moxie, would chase my RBP whenever he tried cozying up to her). They never bothered any small fish in the tank, feeders or otherwise which easily could've been devoured. I think it's all about raising them well and giving them the space and hiding places they need.

[crkinney]

My tang is made up of swamp and river fish caught locally. I have found that cats caught when they are less than 1inch and fed only commercial food ,will leave your other fish alone . if they have started foraging look out they will eat everything but the rocks and they will taste them.

[Viktor Jarikov]

Wiscash, it is so refreshing to see someone actually interested in brown bullheads - for all I know, you may be one of the kind because these fish are not showy-flashy and to somebody who lives in Carolina they are definitely not exotic, maybe to somebody in Thailand or Paraguay . I commend you on your ability to see beauty in humble places!

So you got yourself a (not blue but) channel cat too. Like Shane said, 10 gal is way way too small for them, unless they are like 2-3" each, and they will need large quarters when they grow up. I have a post with pics on channels and bullheads of perhaps tangential value to you but you may wanna check it out and more importantly, there is a link in it to a NY DEC website describing yellow, brown, black, and white bullheads in a nice fashion http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... 13&t=29628

Did you NOT note the temp ranges for the two fish as a part of your research/care/prep? If you provided the before/before the before/and after temps in your case, that could be informative for the readers in posterity (how did Larry Waybright know the temp, a lucky guess? summer time in Carolina?). Fish sizes are also good to know.

As for the bullhead availability: (1) again, not showy/flashy/interesting enough the the vast majority of USA hobbyists, and (2) I may be wrong, but LFSs shy away from native species (except say for channels and blue channels) - something about the laws that says LFSs cannot sell local fauna - you know, otherwise they would go out and fish out all they can and sell what they net out, which could deplete the local populations and destroy ecosystems. But I did see bullheads in LFSs every now and then as trade-ins - I think there is no law that says you cannot keep a fish you catch (legally) as a pet and that you MUST eat it

I also would love to have had all 4-5 types of bullheads but cannot find any sellers. Neither I could buy a flathead catfish or a wels so far. Well, wels is foreign (not illegal though), but flathead is native and abundant but cannot find any sources in Northern USA or USA for that matter.

I agree with crkinney's comments, except it is like always with wild animals (remember Sigfried and Roy?): you think you tamed and trained and changed them but one day the old killer-fish (or killer tiger) instinct kicks in and vualya (pardon my French), you got yourself a fish (man) eater back.

"plus channel catfish are punks unless the other fish can be swallowed" ---- I have not a clue what this means, could someone enlighten me on the latest and the greatest in English? Even if I understood "punks", I do not get the sentence.

Kydsexy: so far I only have had florida bullheads in my collection, they are nice, gentle, and sweet and have a beautiful marbled appearance. No bulling. No mess. But of course, people's experiences can differ vastly.

[apistomaster]

Wiscash

Did you NOT note the temp ranges for the two fish as a part of your research/care/prep? If you provided the before/before the before/and after temps in your case, that could be informative for the readers in posterity (how did Larry Waybright know the temp, a lucky guess? summer time in Carolina?). Fish sizes are also good to know.

I know a bit about Bull Head Catfish and Channel Catfish because Bullheads were the first fish I ever caught at 5 years old and since then I have caught many more Bullheads and Channel Catfish by angling.
I also have netted many young Bullheads from schools of fry being guarded by the male so I am familiar with their breeding habitat and temperature tolerance range in nature and aquariums. Not rocket science to know what kind of places lend themselves to being optimum for each of these kinds of Catfish. I am 5 minutes away from places where I can catch either species but they very rarely share the same part of a given habitat. Bullheads and Channel Catfish also show by their morphology that classic rule, form follows function.
The stream lined shape and deeply forked tail of the Channel Catfish is an adaptation for living in strong currents while the square tail and chunky build of the Bullhead is not well suited to strong currents but still or very slow moving waters. You might not have realized that the fast and strong currents tend to be associated with higher dissolved oxygen levels with cooler temperatures than still or slow waters which will usually be warmer and have lower dissolved oxygen levels if the different habitats occur within the same climatic zones being compared.

I have always found Bullheads to be fairly assertive and not very choosy about what they eat. Channel Catfish, in the wild, are predators. They eat many crayfish but also smaller fish. Channel Catfish are occasionally known to strike lures that imitate bait fish when fished in clear waters. Both fish are predators but being larger, faster, Channel Cats are better at catching other fish to eat than Bullheads. In a small aquarium, a Channel Cat will be closer to it's limits with regard to tolerating poor water quality than the Bullheads which when in trouble, are able to use atmospheric air to obtain supplemental oxygen. Most Channel Catfish will have died long before the bullheads if kept in similarly deteriorating water conditions.

[Viktor Jarikov]

Thanks, Larry, Makes lots of sense.

I understand the aerodynamics, well rather hydrodynamics of the body shape, but how does the tail shape figure into this equation? Why is the forked tail more efficient at swimming than a rounded/squared one?

BTW: did you not see the continuation on one of my posts where you gave good, strong opinions before or do you just have nothing to add? http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... 12&start=0 (if you choose to reply, please do not do it within this post, of course...)

[apistomaster]

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/s ... clnk&gl=us

[Suckermouth]

A broader tail gives more power because it has more surface area, but it is more difficult to move and thus reduces speed. It is good for a quick burst. A forked tail, on the other hand, is quicker to move, but does not give as much power. It is better for more continuous swimming.

[Viktor Jarikov]

Larry, Milton, thank you. Interesting stuff. One would naively think that longer-term swimmers would simply have smaller tails which would not be as tiring to operate while those fish that need quick bursts in slow waters would have a larger tail and the tail shape would not matter, just the size. But nature (well, God rather) says the naive thinkers are... well, naive... and ignorant... There are many more factors, maneuverability, agility, flexibility to name superficial few... not to mention that science does NOT know all there is to know about water, not even close, can you believe it!?? Something as "simple" and basic as water. There are scientific papers being published on water molecular and supramolecular structures, novel spectroscopic properties, water rheology, etc. regularly. If we do not know water completely, we certainly cannot explain all or likely even most of the traits of what lives in it...

[MatsP]

I'm sure tail-shape, just like so many other things, is a compromise "design" - you have swimming speed vs. drag resistance.

--
Mats

[apistomaster]

The forked tails are found on fish which are typically long ranging fish in oceans but that design also allows for extreme bursts of speed. Tuna, Barracuda, Bone Fish and the majority of the Salmonids are well known high speed fish but the small Tetras also share the same caudal fin morphology and as most of us have experienced they can be very quick when they need to be.
In the link I posted, I did not know until I actually looked at it, used Channel catfish as one of the examples of strong and fast swimming forked tail fishes. I wasn't expecting that but it made posting it even more relevant to the discussion.
That link summarized and gave examples of many different fish morphologies and explained the associated benefits and gave examples of very wide ranges of form follows function for most of the basic morphological types known among fish.

The name in the topic, "Blue Channel Catfish" is a classic example of the problem of using common names. Locally, anglers often refer to to Channel Cats and Blue Catfish which in reality are different species. The fisherman often think they have caught a Blue Catfish when they catch larger Channel Catfish but we do not have any Blue Catfish in our waters. Only 4 species of Ictalurid Catfish were introduced and became established; Channel cats, Flathead cats, Bullheads and Tadpole Madtoms.
Flathead Catfish are relatively rare but they lack the deeply forked tails of the Channel Cats and are found in very large and deep slower moving pools in the main river. The Flathead catfish are sometimes caught as large as 40 pounds, a size unheard of among our local Channel Catfish. Most run 20" and 3 pounds to 25 inches and 6 pounds. The Flatheads are more of an ambush predator although they do forage. A 12 inch trout is considered to be among the best baits tro use when specifically fishing for the larger Flatheads. This is not legal but is widely practiced by those seeking to catch our larger Flathead Catfish
All of these fish were introduced into what were originally primarily a Salmonid dominated native fisheries but have carved out a niches helped but the constructed hydroelectric reservoirs. These were devastating to the native Salmonids but provided more suitable habitats for the larger Catfish.
Still, because of the higher latitudes of the Columbia River system the water temperatures run cooler for longer than is normally found where the larger specimens of these catfish are caught in the more southern parts of their original native range. The cooler water for a longer period limits maximum potential size and also a reduced growth rate.
The length to weight relationship is a nonlinear function. Only a few ever reach 10 pounds in this latitude although in their native range there are recorded weights of some Channel catfish which did reach what is considered their maximum potential size of about 40 pounds. They are not the largest of the North American Catfish species but as aquarium fish they are "tank busters" as some refer to the large species of fishes they keep.

[Suckermouth]

The name in the topic, "Blue Channel Catfish" is a classic example of the problem of using common names. Locally, anglers often refer to to Channel Cats and Blue Catfish which in reality are different species. The fisherman often think they have caught a Blue Catfish when they catch larger Channel Catfish but we do not have any Blue Catfish in our waters.

To add on to that,

Ictalurus punctatus

and

Ictalurus furcatus

are fairly easy to distinguish. I. furcatus shouldn't have spots, if I'm not mistaken. Also, if you look at the anal fin, I. furcatus should have a straight anal fin margin while I. punctatus has a rounded one. I believe they also differ in anal fin ray count, but don't ask me what the numbers are.

[Viktor Jarikov]

The fish has already been figured out to be a Channel, not a Blue Channel. CateLog: (Blue Channel catfish) Only confused with adult channel cats. The channel cat averages 27-30 anal fin rays while the blue has 33-35. Even easier, the anal fin of the blue is straight along the lower margin while the channel cat's is distinctly rounded.

For some reason no reference to spots, likely because they disappear as channels grow. But I've heard that differing characteristic from many now. Maybe someone could update the Cat-eLog?

[apistomaster]

For some reason no reference to spots, likely because they disappear as channels grow. But I've heard that differing characteristic from many now. Maybe someone could update the Cat-eLog?

Hi Viktor,
I don't believe any changes are necessary. Unless you catch your own Channel Catfish, those being sold are from the aquaculture industry and there are several strains which have slight differences in appearance or have been bred for fast growth and greater body mass. There is even the albino form being bred in captivity so spots are not apparent in these fish at any age. This complicates using transient appearance in spotting of the juvenile to adults as identifiers. The fin ray counts and fin shapes are probably more reliable.

You can probably catch some from a river or lake near by. They are widely distributed throughout the USA even well outside their original range. If you go night fishing for them you should catch a few that are less than one foot long as well as many others much larger. They are not harmed much by hooks except those which have swallowed the bait. I have brought them home in wet burlap bags as a kid and then kept 2 feet long specimens in our horses' watering trough for months.
Imagine how much easier it would be to have kept them in water for transport. When you are fishing for them as prospective pond fish I recommend taking along a netted bag like potatoes are sometimes sold in because that way you can keep them in the water until you have caught the number you want to keep and you will not harm their gills as I did by using a fish stringer. Remember, I was still just a kid experimenting when I did keep my wild caught Channel cats. I wouldn't and actually still don't use stringers anymore when I visit a near by trout pond stocked by the state. I like to keep my fish very much alive until I am ready to clean them. It is one of the few instances where I do not practice catch and release. The fish are hatchery fish and meant to be eaten. Nothing wrong with keeping a few of the large Channel Cats you will catch while you are at it. They have a good flavor.

[Viktor Jarikov]

fun read, Larry - thanx! You do realize I am not the poster here but just chiming in with my pocket full of "two-cent" coins and a burning desire for knowledge, don't you? ...

Also, what I wrote above is: "I also would love to have had all 4-5 types of bullheads but cannot find any sellers. Neither I could buy a flathead catfish or a wels so far. Well, wels is foreign (not illegal though), but flathead is native and abundant but cannot find any sources in Northern USA or USA for that matter."

If I may remind you, I do have two >2' TL channels in my indoor pond and a one-footer too, see here http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... 13&t=29628 and here http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... 25&t=29488 . So I am not looking for Channels. And the only bullheads I have had so far are the marbled ones or FL bullheads Ameiurus serracanthus http://www.planetcatfish.com/catelog/sp ... es_id=1089

[crkinney]

Viktor Considering that I go catfishing and catch Channel,blue,and whitecats along with what we call a speckelled butter cat or mud cat .How would a body ship a two pound cat fish ? An envelope will get soggy.
By the way I live a mile from the St Johns river .
A number of years ago commercial fishermen put fish cages in the local power plant cooling pond to raise cats.
the local boys distroyed those cages and now we have a hybred cat simular to a channel cat but differant .I cannot see the differance but the commerical boys can spot them in a second .These bad boy get big in a rush and eat goog to.

[MatsP]

So, shipping a medium-sized fish involves careful pacakging, and as you say, regular paper envelopes certainly won't work. Plastic bag inside a poly-styrene box. In the winter, you'd want heat-packs, but for non-tropical fish, and in summer, it's OK to ship in just the box.

Obviously, the bag needs to be thick enough that it doesn't break in shipping. For spiny fish [not sure if Blue channels have spines on the pectoral/dorsal fins, but many other catfish do], you need really thick plastic, and it never hurts to double-bag.

And the US mail service is probably not quite good enough either. Commercial fish shippers use over-night freight - often "airport-to-airport" is the least expensive option.

--
Mats

[Viktor Jarikov]

Thank you, CRKinney and Mats! I am falling asleep at the keyboard. Will reply later.

[Suckermouth]

Obviously, the bag needs to be thick enough that it doesn't break in shipping. For spiny fish [not sure if Blue channels have spines on the pectoral/dorsal fins, but many other catfish do], you need really thick plastic, and it never hurts to double-bag.

Strong dorsal/pectoral fin spines are a trait among almost all catfishes, including ictalurids. I know the electric catfishes don't, but they replace that defense with electricity.

[apistomaster]

There are few specialists who sell smaller species of native North American fish for aquariums and commercial producers of Channel Cats which sell fingerlings. Shipping small native fish is not difficult but Florida has most of the catfish you seem to be interested in and a fishing license or collection permit would be cheaper than shipping fish sold by others.

[crkinney]

I think I will check with UPS and Florida to see if taking and shipping cat fish is legal and not too costly

[apistomaster]

UPS and FedEx first require a shipper with an account to submit a package minus the fish, to be sent in to their testing dept to ascertain your packaging survives all their drop, impact and leak proof rquirements. The testing is free however you must pay the freight on the test package to them; it is returned for free. Lot of hassle unless you plan to ship with them routinely.

USPS merely requires that you assert your packaging meets their requirements for small, cold blooded animals.
These basically are a waterproof outer barrier bag and enough absorbent material to soak up any leaks. Except during cold weather the majority of the fish will travel the maximum 2nd day delivery guaranteed when using USPS Express Mail. Many fish can go Priority and arrive on the 3rd day.

Unless you are setting a up a business, you are usually allowed to do what ever you want with any fish legally caught except to release back into anywhere in that State other than where you caught the fish. Lots of native fish hobbyists ship fish from Florida to fellow hobbyists in other States. The popular Fundulus chrysotus killiefish, Dwarf and Pygmy Sunfish and any others not on their protected species list are legal to ship for non-commercial purposes. A fishing license is usually all you need. Many people net fish for bait that others want as aquarium fish.

[Viktor Jarikov]

Viktor Considering that I go catfishing and catch Channel,blue,and whitecats along with what we call a speckelled butter cat or mud cat .How would a body ship a two pound cat fish ? An envelope will get soggy.
By the way I live a mile from the St Johns river . A number of years ago commercial fishermen put fish cages in the local power plant cooling pond to raise cats. the local boys distroyed those cages and now we have a hybred cat simular to a channel cat but differant .I cannot see the differance but the commerical boys can spot them in a second .These bad boy get big in a rush and eat goog to.

What exactly are you saying? I can only say that I think you may be hinting at the possibility of shipping a fish to me? That's awfully nice, if this is so. As mentioned, channels I have. I have a small blue channel - bought him at 3", he is about 6-7" now. I would not mind getting a large one, 2-3', but the shipping alone would be around $100.

By whitecat, do you mean http://www.planetcatfish.com/catelog/sp ... ies_id=263 ??? This one I do not have.
By speckelled butter cat or mud cat, do you mean http://www.planetcatfish.com/catelog/sp ... es_id=1089. I have 2 of these.

Obviously, the bag needs to be thick enough that it doesn't break in shipping. For spiny fish [not sure if Blue channels have spines on the pectoral/dorsal fins, but many other catfish do], you need really thick plastic, and it never hurts to double-bag.

And the US mail service is probably not quite good enough either. Commercial fish shippers use over-night freight - often "airport-to-airport" is the least expensive option.

No matter how thick a plastic bag one will go with, a thrashing 2' catfish will puncture the bag in an instant. At my present understanding, I would not trust quadruple-bagging in 8 mil plastic bags.

Airport-to-airport shipping is only available to known/registered fish shippers, I am told. One needs to have a business to be able to do that. For private owners, Fedex and UPS are the only sensible options.

There are few specialists who sell smaller species of native North American fish for aquariums and commercial producers of Channel Cats which sell fingerlings. Shipping small native fish is not difficult but Florida has most of the catfish you seem to be interested in and a fishing license or collection permit would be cheaper than shipping fish sold by others.

Larry, not sure who is "you" in your post. Are you referring to me? CRKinney? Some one else? If to me, then yes, it is a fine idea you propose. I like it! Never occurred to me.

UPS and FedEx first require a shipper with an account to submit a package minus the fish, to be sent in to their testing dept to ascertain your packaging survives all their drop, impact and leak proof rquirements. The testing is free however you must pay the freight on the test package to them; it is returned for free. Lot of hassle unless you plan to ship with them routinely.

USPS merely requires that you assert your packaging meets their requirements for small, cold blooded animals.
These basically are a waterproof outer barrier bag and enough absorbent material to soak up any leaks. Except during cold weather the majority of the fish will travel the maximum 2nd day delivery guaranteed when using USPS Express Mail. Many fish can go Priority and arrive on the 3rd day.

Interesting. My main local source of advices who has been buying fish for a LFS for over 30 years did not mention this testing protocol. Maybe because I inquired about a shipper as a private individual and not a shipper with an account.

Will fish survive 2-3 day en route? I've only heard from others using overnight or 1-day at max.

[MatsP]

How long the fish survives in packaging depends on "how well packed" it is. There are many different things that can be done right/wrong. Oxygen is obviously one factor, ammonia [due to lack of filter] another, and temperature.

I can't say that I know how to pack fish to last 2-3 days, but I'm sure it can be done.

--
Mats

[Bas Pels]

preparing also plays a role - in order to empy the intestines. That would prevent the fish from spoiling the water with its excrements.

A 10 cm (4 inches) fish of normal proportions (say, a Pimelodus), which has not eaten anything for 4 days, should normally survive 48 hours in a bag of 1 liter - with 4 liters of pure oxygen on top of it

Personally, I would prefer picking it up, in a 10 liter bucket, and change its water every 4 hours for 50 %. This also provides fresh air in the bucket