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Panaque CUT OPEN by plant roots!

Posted: 15 Aug 2006, 05:32
by Deb
This story is hard to tell. About three weeks ago, a firm came in to do some work in the house, and some of the work that was done involved hammering and banging, even though I was told it would not. I tried to protect the fish tanks, by holding them to stop the vibrations, but I think I failed. My Panaque maccus, my favorite fish, disappeared, and went into hiding. Convinced it was shock from the vibrations from all that rhythmic hammering and deafening banging, I left him in peace to recover.

Last Thursday, "Mac" was discovered upside down in distress on the rhizome of the java fern. He was gasping, and his orange stripes were almost white. After a while I thought he would feel better if he could be upright again, so I tried to nudge him gently off the rhizome cradle. When I couldn't budge him, a closer look revealed that he had somehow gotten entangled in the long, adventitious roots and was literally tied to the rhizome - trapped.

This was indeed a freak accident brought about by panic over the sound wave shock. The only way to free him was to cut him loose, and to do that I had to remove the section of the plant that he was attached to, and "operate" out of the aquarium. I did so, cutting out the section of rhizome with Mac still attached firmly. So tightly enwrapped was he, that even using Swiss precision nail scissors, I had trouble getting between the roots and the fish. It was a difficult and stressful operation.

This is Mac right after being freed. The photo is poor, but the bulging red area on his underside is obvious.
When I saw him close up, it seemed to be a large section of muscle, only. To my untrained eye, it seemed as if the vital organs were still inside.
Image
The job had to be done underwater, so I used a small, shallow tub filled with aquarium water. I trimmed him free strand by strand, pausing between each cut to inspect him. The process took some time, as I had to be very careful not to stab him with the scissors. The whole time he seemed pretty lively and energetic. He tried to get away from me at first, but then after a while, he calmed down, and I was able to see my way clear to cutting his bonds. Don't ask me how I know, but I'm sure he realized he was better off staying still, because when he did he became less entangled. Fish are not dumb. He knew he was being freed, little by little, and that I was helping him, not hurting him. Anyway, when he was completely free, I released him back into the aquarium where he swam off, acting normally.

Here he is giving me a reproachful glance, and I don't blame him.
The slash just behind the eye, is part of a more gruesome wound that continues across the chest.
The cut seen here is skin deep:
Image
There was nothing else to do but release him; he was not dead or even half-dead, but very lively, despite everything that had happened. I thought, if he's going to die at least he'll be in familiar surroundings with his usual tankmates.

While twisting and struggling in the roots for who knows how many days undetected, Mac sustained several serious injuries. His beautiful, sail-like dorsal fin is gone, churned away down to his back. Just a few shreds remain. The tail fin and the fins on the left side are shredded. The other side doesn't look bad. His left side has some kind of whitish patch, and this is what I'm most concerned about. It looks like some of the scutes are missing or rubbed off, and I fear some kind of rot (fungus or bacteria) will set in. I'm medicating against it with Melafix.
Is it possible for the missing plates to grow back?

Perhaps most horrific of all is this:
Image
A complete, diagonal chest slash, cut through to his insides by the garotting nature of all those tightly wrapped java fern roots entwined around him. How he managed to get so entangled I'll never know. It is a one in a million disaster that no one would anticipate. He's laid open like Alexander the Great.

Anyway, despite this grisly wound he seems to be functioning. He is eating his peas and his veggie flakes - I'm trying to keep him on a high fiber diet - and he is always on his piece of maple wood, so I assume he is eating that as usual. I do not know how he is excreting. It may be normally, or not. I can't tell. He seems to be satisfied, and is not gasping for air, or flopping over, or acting sick. One thing he is doing differently is that he is spending more time on the glass. I suspect this is because it is cool and smooth and feels good.

On the glass, looking almost normal:
Image

On the first day, the wound was bulging open and his insides were hanging out, as shown in the first photo.
Today, the latest photo shows it is actually improving, the edges are clean and not puffy or infected.
Image
Am I right? Do you think it looks a little better?
I'm changing a little water every day, and keeping the sand clean. Increasing the water circulation as Marc (van Arc) suggested, was a good idea, especially since I'm dosing Melafix. It may be too optimistic, but I have high hopes for his recovery. The other fish in the tank are not bothering him and he seems to be comfortable. Do you think I'm being overly optimistic? Do fish with such wounds ever recover?

I suppose an accident like this can happen with any kind of loose, tensile material. I can't believe simple fern roots, which snap so easily, did all this damage, but when there are lots of them together they are like bonds of steel. The hammering and banging that terrified him so much to start with, and made him lose his bearings, is what drove him into the thicket. He never goes in there otherwise, not once in one and a half years has he set a "foot" into those plants. He always stays under his wood. I'm very attached to this fish. If anyone has a suggestion about further proper treatment for this kind of injury, please post it.

Deborah :(

EDIT: 01 Sept 2006 - To update topic title.

Posted: 15 Aug 2006, 10:54
by MatsP
That looks pretty horrific. I'm sort of thinking that it's acually originally a heater burn (not sure, just looking at it makes me think so). Either way, I think you're doing the right thing: water changes and melafix and plenty of oxygenating of the water.

Gus, my female bristlenose breeder had heater burn a while back, and it healed with just plain lots of water changes, didn't even medicate it...

[I doubt very much that you can stop vibrations into a tank by holding the tank... The vibrations probably pass through the walls and floors of the house into the stand that holds the tank and thus enteres the tank anyways... But I guess the thought is in the right way...]

Best of luck.

--
Mats

Posted: 15 Aug 2006, 13:55
by Deb
Thanks. :D
At the time, I was thinking I could absorb most of the vibrations, sort of like a ground wire does for electricity. It was a desperate move, since I was so taken by surprise when they started up that terrific noise!

Today, Mac is under his wood, as if nothing has happened. Perhaps he feels better. I can see a rudimentary dorsal fin still exists, so maybe it will grow back.

I can say for sure it was the wire-like cutting of the wrapped fern "roots" that caused that gruesome wound. I actually hand unwrapped each twining piece from the gash, where they were imbedded. My next move will be to cut out all the roots longer than a couple of inches that aren't actually anchoring the plants to something. I'm going to go through it like a lawnmower.

Deborah

wounded panaque

Posted: 15 Aug 2006, 15:08
by apistomaster
That poor guy sure did a number on itself. I had something similar happen to the female of a reverse trio of what used to be known as Peckoltia pulcher. She managed to get tangle up in the sewing thread I had used to lash down some java moss to a piece of driftwood. The thread became entangled in her odonteodes(sp) hopelessly. I found her too late and never saw another one for sale to replace it.
It's a good thing you were able to help him. As bad as he is hurt it looks like he is recovering. Wish you both good luck.
PS: I guess you would'nt be surprised that I never use thread in my pleco tank furnishings anymore.
Larry

Posted: 15 Aug 2006, 16:23
by Deb
Thanks, Larry. I have used short pieces of sewing thread to tie several glass beads together to weigh down ferns and Anubias. I've never used fishing line to tie anything in a tank, but I read a recent story detailing how a large fish got strangled in some line used that way. Since then I only use very short pieces of thread, and only if I have to. All of these materials can be treacherous in the artificial confines of the aquarium.

Your Peckoltia female could be a further example of why Asian and South American elements should not be combined in the aquarium. I've always thought so, but haven't been able to stick to my resolve not to do it. Java fern is just so useful. I may rethink all of my set-ups after this.

Deborah

wounded Peckoltia

Posted: 15 Aug 2006, 16:57
by apistomaster
Hi Deb,
I'm one of those who attempts to be biotopically correct but the utility of java moss is hard to beat. Since moving back to SE Washington from Seattle I can't get java moss to grow all that well. My new utility "weed" is Najas guadelupensis. And I'm guilty of planting Crypts in my SA tanks.
I have some trouble understanding how simply java moss could harm one of these bullet proof P.maccus and the first thing I thought of was were there any threads used in this case, too. I mean how else are we told to get moss to grow on driftwood? I just know that it isn't safe in these catfishes tanks. I'm sure thousands of other aquarists have never had this kind of freak accident. Now that I'm spending serious money on setting breeding colonies of Hypancistrus or even in the BN tanks I am careful. Another odd source of danger is using caves made of bamboo. If a hole develops at the dead end of the bamboo joint from their incessant wood chewing, fish can get stuck irreversibly in this trap. I recently lost a wild female A. macmasteri that got her head through all the way back to her gills and died. I need to build little slate caves and regularly inspect old bamboo for early signs of a hole developing. Somethings are just hard to foresee.
Larry

Posted: 01 Sep 2006, 15:28
by Deb
I have some good news to report.
Mac seems to be doing alright. He's under his wood, as usual, and he must be eating it because I see the evidence on the sand, so that's good news. The abraded section of the bony plates on the left side of the fish, mentioned in the first post, is photographed here. It's the white area, just even with the ventral fins:
Image
I worried that fungus would set in because, as we all know, that is so hard to get rid of. It looks like the outer covering, or first layer, has rubbed off the plates.
Here's another view of the same condition, showing the total area affected:
Image
You can see his destroyed dorsal fin in these pictures, including the partially destroyed leading ray. There is just a rudimentary line with the fin rays and tissue barely projecting.

In the last week, though, there's been a big improvement! I didn't want to post about it too soon, just in case I was wrong, but these are the signs that make me think he's healing up really well, as seen in the photo below:
1. The white area didn't get fungus, or any abnormal skin condition, and is disappearing as the new armour covering grows in.
2. The gash on his head is now just a thin white line (as seen midway between the eye and the leading dorsal ray) with no sign of infection.
3. And, most exciting of all, his dorsal fin is growing back!

It's hard to get good photos of retiring plecos in a tank with lots of dens and safe areas,
but I did manage to get this shot about three days ago:
Image
You can clearly see that the dorsal fin is growing back!
There's a nice little sail about 2mm high, and this is very impressive considering that it had been worn down to the backbone when I first untangled him.

For wound treatment, I used Melafix for 5 days in a row, and then skipped a few days and used it again for a total of 7 times. Other than that, I've been doing water changes and cleaning the sand. I've trimmed the plants back somewhat, and have been removing long, extraneous roots with each water change.
Things seem to be going very well ... as seen again today:
Image
The speed with which this fin is regenerating is remarkable!
I would say that's a very decent top fin to be starting with! I have not been able to get another photo of the ventral area, so I can't say for sure how that huge gash is healing up. I can tell you that his behavior seems just the same as before the accident, and he is eating plenty.

Deborah :D

Posted: 02 Sep 2006, 01:14
by Mike_Noren
It is absolutely amazing that he survived - I thought he "just" had fleshwounds, but I saw now on the pictures that he also had a hole into his body cavity.

Congratulations!

Posted: 02 Sep 2006, 02:49
by nadajdui
Great job on taking care of that poor fellow! I'm really happy to see that he's healing up without a hitch.

Posted: 02 Sep 2006, 05:28
by Pablo111
Im glad you nursed your little clown pleco back to health hes a nice one!

I once lost a paradise fish- THE paradise fish, literally the most perfect anatomically immaculate brilliantly colored massive gorgeous spectacular paradise EVER, to the same thing.

Dumb construction people hammered right on the other side of the wall behind his tank. He took off so fast that he hit the glass hard enough that he left a smudge of goo (body fluids I assume) and blue scales... then blood started to come out of his mouth and he went into shock and passed away shortly after....

And I'll never see one that perfect again...

You know the paradise fish on the Eheim boxes for the canisters? How it looks CG enhanced? Mine LOOKED like that... :(

Posted: 02 Sep 2006, 16:59
by bronzefry
Deb,
Those pics are difficult to look at. I can't imagine what you went through with this. This fish is resiliant and you keep the tank clean. Otherwise, this fish would have perished. Keep up the good work!! :wink:
Amanda

Posted: 03 Sep 2006, 15:15
by Deb
Mike Noren wrote:
It is absolutely amazing that he survived - I thought he "just" had fleshwounds, but I saw now on the pictures that he also had a hole into his body cavity.
When I first saw that I thought it was some dirt or sand in the wound, but later I saw a very thin, short brown, string-like material hanging out, which made me think he was excreting through this opening. I cannot think how he got pierced, if that's what it was, but it must have resolved itself. He was never one of those fish that hung around on the glass, so now it's a matter of "watch and wait" to get a look at his underside. That's the only way I'll know for sure how far healing has progressed.

Amanda, Nada,
thanks for the good wishes. You know the expression "my heart sank"? Well, that's exactly how I felt when I first saw him, and the extent of the damage. I could feel the color drain from my face and a prickly feeling of panic, which lasted a few minutes. I guess it was shock. I sprang into action pretty quickly, though, using the fish's own behaviour to guide me. I learned you can't delay with these things, just decide what to do and do it.

Pablo, let's hope many people are reading this and have learned something about protecting their fish against construction noise. Steve Meyer, who writes extensively about ponds and pond fish, has told of entire ponds being wiped out from devastating noise in or at the surface of the water. I'm sorry about your paradise fish. What a dreadful end! :(

Deborah

Posted: 14 Oct 2006, 15:46
by Deb
Okay, just one more post on this thread to show the extent
to which the healing has progressed. Despite watching and waiting patiently, I can not get a photo of Mac on the glass, which means the condition of his undersides is still a mystery. However, I did get this shot, which shows his
left side - which was the worst side - has healed beautifully:

Image.
This photo shows that the scutes have grown over the former white abraded area, and have resumed their natural pattern and coloration. As well as that, the slash across the top of the head (as seen in the early photos on this thread) has healed over, and you'd have a hard time finding where it used to be.
(Although, if you look hard, you can see the little dent in the top of his head. I imagine that's a scar.)
This, above anything, makes me think the slash to the underside has healed, too, perhaps all the way.

The dorsal fin is lying flat in this picture, but that, too, has gown back, I think fully. There's a little disruption in the pattern, but that's the only evidence that anything ever happened!

Deborah
:D

BTW, all these fish are to move to a new 90 gallon set-up next June, so at that time I'll capture Mac and examine his ventral area. I plan to take photos and record the findings here. :D

Posted: 14 Oct 2006, 18:41
by Shane
Outstanding job Deb!
-Shane

Posted: 15 Oct 2006, 17:00
by bronzefry
Deb,
The fact that Mac is alive and rasping is a testament to good husbandry, i.e. your hard work. May all of our fish heal like this. :wink:
Amanda

Posted: 16 Oct 2006, 11:09
by MatsP
Excellent results (and thanks for the update, of course).

--
Mats

Mac's Recovery Photo.

Posted: 11 Nov 2006, 20:54
by Deb
Success at last!
On or about October 23, I was prowling around downstairs
very early in the morning, and I happened to spy this:
Image
The gash has obviously healed over with no side effects!
I think we can say his recovery is complete.
I never see him on the glass during the day, and didn't really know all of his nighttime habits, but he must like to explore the glass once in a while. Luckily, the early light from the window allowed me to see him there.
He dashed off just after this photo was taken.

He looks good, doesn't he?
I am sure he is bragging about how brave he was, and showing off his scar to all the other catfish! :lol:

Deborah
:D

Posted: 12 Nov 2006, 15:50
by bronzefry
Deb,
He has that "wild-caught" look. :wink: In all seriousness, he looks terrific. Are you thinking about writing about your experience?
Amanda

Healed! Comparison photos.

Posted: 13 Nov 2006, 13:41
by Deb
Amanda wrote:
Are you thinking about writing about your experience?
Well, I wrote about it here in journal form, but it could be adapted to an article of some kind if there's interest.

Someone suggested that I post comparison photos to recall everyone to the way this all began,
so just a couple more for the archive ...
Here he is the day of the injury,
around August 10, 2006:

Image

And here he is today, about three months later:

Image
Notice his scar. And how well his fins look!
I'm using a smaller photo size than usual, but this thread is still photo heavy,
so apologies to those who find loading them slow and difficult.
I'm a pretty good writer, but in this case the pictures tell the story, don't they?

Deb
:D

Re: Healed! Comparison photos.

Posted: 14 Nov 2006, 02:11
by Reptilian
deb wrote:Amanda wrote:
Are you thinking about writing about your experience?
Well, I wrote about it here in journal form, but it could be adapted to an article of some kind if there's interest.

Someone suggested that I post comparison photos to recall everyone to the way this all began,
so just a couple more for the archive ...
Here he is the day of the injury,
around August 10, 2006:

Image

And here he is today, about three months later:

Image
Notice his scar. And how well his fins look!
I'm using a smaller photo size than usual, but this thread is still photo heavy,
so apologies to those who find loading them slow and difficult.
I'm a pretty good writer, but in this case the pictures tell the story, don't they?

Deb
:D
LOL August 10 is my B-day. I'm glad to see that he made a FULL recovery.

Mac's progress

Posted: 14 Nov 2006, 20:53
by Joyce8025
Deb, that is amazing. I can just imagine how you felt when you found him. Poor little guy! You should be very proud of yourself--what a MOM! Kudos to you! It seems that freak accidents happen when you least expect them. I have noticed that my plecos do not like noise at all! My tank is between my kitchen and family room and I have to be careful when I open and close a drawer so that it does not make unnecessary noise. In retrospect, I wonder if covering the tank with comforters, bubble wrap, etc. would help insulate it against noisy workers. I used thread previously to adhere java fern to driftwood and even the heavy duty button thread was cut in half so I switched to heavy fishing line. Keep an eye on it! Have read about rubber bands as well. Since I only have 2 wee plecos I can't use a spoon, etc. Only put in small pieces about 1/4" x 1/2" each night. Guess we need some better options.

Again, great job! Your little guy is a survivor!

Joyce

wooooooooooooow

Posted: 18 Nov 2006, 00:35
by Boots n all
This is book worth let alone a fish mag. l would not have believed it if you told me, but there is the photo's to prove it, between your efforts and fish's will to live the results are truly amazing........Well done to both of you

Posted: 14 Mar 2007, 01:55
by vspen
Deb, I am in love with Mac and delighted to hear of his miraculous recovery! It gives me great hope for my 8 year old baby Louie whose gruesome photos can be seen here. This is a 20 day progression. On the 21st day I moved him to a hospital tank, his lesions burst during the netting to move him but he is now in a medicated Melafix solution thanks to your remarkable success story using this product.
Cheers to Mac!
Prayers to Louie :)

Louie's pics: http://www.geocities.com/vspen/PlecoStrip.jpg

Re: Panaque CUT OPEN by plant roots!

Posted: 05 May 2008, 06:24
by andywoolloo
I realize this is a couple years old but I was utterly amazed when I saw and read it and thought other new members would be interested as well.

Congrats to Mac and his mom. :thumbsup: