Tank decimation and fin rot!

Iporangensis Headach · Post by **Iporangensis Headach** » 10 Apr 2006, 19:02

Ok I have woken up this morning to a silver shark stuck to the filter "Dead" and the pangius catfish floating belly up!!!! and the goldfish, all 3 silver sharks and both dead fish have it as well!

This fin rot has been going on for a while now and the goldfish has always had it, (As one area recovers, another get it) I have got all my parameters correct and I still have fish dieing,

The Earth Eater, Sailfin, frogs, and Twig Catfish are all ok with perfect fins and never have been ill?

I am going back to basics and I am gunna clean the filter, clean the glass and I am going to empty the tank of gravel, let the tank run for 2 months "bare" and then start putting things back in,

PH 7
Ni 0
Am 0
Temp 26
40% water changed weekly

Has anyone get any ideas on anything else I can do?

mummymonkey · Post by **mummymonkey** » 10 Apr 2006, 19:38

I think you're always going to struggle with those fish in that tank.

Rocket · Post by **Rocket** » 11 Apr 2006, 00:59

Hi

A couple of questons for you.

Firstly what have you been treating the finrot with?

Secondly when you change 40% a week is that done in one water change? If so why do you feel you need to change so much a week? Not that it is necessarily a bad thing to change the water frequently.

Thirdly are you sure your test kits are ok and are giving you an accurate reading?

Gordon

Iporangensis Headach · Post by **Iporangensis Headach** » 11 Apr 2006, 01:49

Hello Ok

I have not treated finrot for 2 years as water changes always sorted it out, Plus after last time were all my fish decided to go banannas after i treated with "interpet stuff i think - Antifungus and Finrot) i decided i did not want all the agro of fish pretending to be microwaves and dish cloths - yes they realy did go that mental,

Water changes are done in 2 goes, each with decoranator

Test kits are brand new and i have took the water to LFS who have confirmed the results,

Its driving me mad, i just want to get rid of it once and for all but i am scared i am gunna kill some fish doing it (as i was so colse to about 5 deaths last time)

PlecoCrazy · Post by **PlecoCrazy** » 11 Apr 2006, 03:21

I have seen where people keep there substrate too thick and becomes anearobic. (sp?) If the fish spends much of its time at the bottom it can cause fin and tail rot. Barbles on the catfish is usually where i've seen it start and then progresses. That may or may not be apart of the problem?

Iporangensis Headach · Post by **Iporangensis Headach** » 11 Apr 2006, 03:26

How do i aviod anearobic, UGF? i have a Goldfish and Earth Eater and they contantly dig, would this help matters or make it worse?

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 11 Apr 2006, 09:45

I would think you're mistaking finrot for acidosis, although finrot could be a secondary infection from acidosis.

As you've been having problems with pH recently, with it dropping to 4, I think the fishes fins have been eroded. It will also eat away at their gills and make it hard for them to breath.

Even though your pH is at 7 now, have you tested at night, as plants can cause day/night swings in pH. Maybe your water still isn't buffered enough?

I seems to me that as your most acidophilic fish are still alive, this is where the problem could be.

Iporangensis Headach · Post by **Iporangensis Headach** » 11 Apr 2006, 10:17

How do i sort that?

I found my Twig Cat Fish dead this morning, its all going badly wrong,

I feel that the gravel has bad bacteria or worse in it as so many fish have died in it in the past, should i remove the lot, leave for 2 months, and renew with sand? i fancy the really white silica stuff,

Is acidosis curable?

Thanks

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 11 Apr 2006, 10:32

I can't guarantee that it is acidosis, but it's an option.

It's curable provided you slowly aclimatise the fish to properly buffered water. A bag of aragonite or coral gravel in the filter should gradually add KH and keep your water buffered.

How much gravel is in the tank?

Iporangensis Headach · Post by **Iporangensis Headach** » 11 Apr 2006, 13:09

Tank has around 2" gravel over the whole tank floor, but the Earth Eater piles it up into mounds up to 5" high the gravel is always moving! the Earth Eater and Goldfish make sure of that!

Could my other fish deaths have left somthing in the water or gravel?

I have been adding KH buffer for 14 days now and kept it topped up? how long should it take to aclimatise the fish?

I realy need to sort this out, and i amthinging removing the gravel and running a bare tank will give me the best start, but i could be wrong,

Thanks

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 11 Apr 2006, 13:17

You don't want an eartheater in a bare-bottom tank.

What is the actual KH value in your tank?

What's the pH? Is it still 7?
What are the levels of Nitrite and Nitrate?
(You indicate Ni, but I'm not sure if this is nitrite or nitrate? - It should be zero for Nitrite, but nitrate shouldn't really be zero - there's something wrong with the filtering system if you have ZERO nitrate).

2 inches of gravel isn't excessive - particularly if it's being shuffled all the time...

--
Mats

Iporangensis Headach · Post by **Iporangensis Headach** » 11 Apr 2006, 13:34

How about getting the Gravel out and cleaning everything then replacing with sand with in less than?

KH 95
PH 7
Ni 0
Nt ?
Am 0

I also run double the sponge inside the filter as well,

I cant under stand whe every new fish i get only lasts 2 weeks max!

Thanks

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 11 Apr 2006, 13:52

I suspect the answer to your question "why fish only lasts two weeks" has to do with your water quality - you have some pretty decent size fish in a fairly small tank - they produce a lot of waste, which makes a lot of nitrate, which fish that live in a lower nitrate environment will get upset by - particularly those that are wild-caught from rivers that have zero nitrate...

If you want to write Nitrate/Nitrite shorter, please use NO2 (nitrite) and NO3 (nitrate), not your own abbreviations, as no one else will know what those stand for...

--
Mats

Iporangensis Headach · Post by **Iporangensis Headach** » 11 Apr 2006, 19:15

If you want to write Nitrate/Nitrite shorter, please use NO2 (nitrite) and NO3 (nitrate), not your own abbreviations, as no one else will know what those stand for...

I did not have the corect lettering at hand when typing so i made it as close as i could,

i have remembered somthing that could be causing it but its a long shot:-

I add KH buffer to a bucket of water and that keeps it at PH7 but when i do the water change to keep the temps from going up and down i use 1.7L of boiling water first then at the ret in cold, Could this be taking the oxygen out of the water before i even put it in the tank,

?

Thanks

Waldo · Post by **Waldo** » 12 Apr 2006, 00:16

How thick is your substrate though and what kind. I've heard of the ticking bombs, where simple water changes can fix the tank water but if a bubble of Nit's are popped in the substrate is nukes the tank.

Rocket · Post by **Rocket** » 12 Apr 2006, 00:29

Hi

The reason I asked before about the water changes is that if you NEED to change the water that regularly then you are obviously feeding the tank to much. How much are they fed each day and how many times a day? it could be that you are overfeeding them which in turn will affect the water quality.

Do you ever sit and watch the fish after the lights go out? It just seems that you loose the fish overnight and not during the day. This COULD be due to a dominent fish attacking the others, a possible cause of the damaged fins and not finrot as you think. Just a thought.

Gordon

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 12 Apr 2006, 09:49

I think Rocket's on the right track.

I think you mentioned in another thread that you have a fluval 4 internal filter.

This in my opinion is way too small for the fish you had in your tank.

I can't abide internal power filters, they have a tiny amount of media, and they always clog up.

On that tank I would have run a pair of large ehiem external filters.

What I think could be happening is after you feed, you are getting a big surge in ammonia and nitrite, as this filter is unable to deal with it. You probably aren't testing after you feed, so you might not be picking it up with the test kits.

This combined with poorly buffered water has resulted in the demise of the tank.

I would also recommend getting a nitrate test kit, as this is invaluable in maintaining an overstocked tank.

I hope this is of some help, and it goes better next time.

Iporangensis Headach · Post by **Iporangensis Headach** » 12 Apr 2006, 12:09

Never watched them at night!

Also I only change the water that after as I always thought you should change 40% per week, its nothing to do with how much I feed I just do it as a rule of thumb,

Feeding I do:- 1 small bock of bloodworm every other day and a small pinch of flake every other day, and one slice of cucumber every day.

I have the standard set of sponges in the filter folded over in the bottom half of the canister and another set of sponges folded over in the top half so I have double the media!

Also the Goldfish is getting taken out an putting into a pond, so that should cut down on the nastys.

Also I have put the bubble wand under the gravel over the bottom of the tank so it should aerate the it and it produces bigger bubbles so it will cause more disturbance at the surface,

Can you test for O2?

Thanks

funkyj1313 · Post by **funkyj1313** » 12 Apr 2006, 18:16

1)Do you have anything to circulate the water near the bottom?
2)I would stop adding boiling water to cold water to heat it up. Instead I would buy a small heater to keep it at the temp you need. I put water in a couple of pitchers right out of the tap and put a thermometer in the water while its filling. This way I know the temp. before I add it and if the water is +/- 2 degrees the remaining water will help to heat or cool the new water.
On a side note, my KH is 0, GH is 75, PH 6.8.

Iporangensis Headach · Post by **Iporangensis Headach** » 12 Apr 2006, 19:05

1)Do you have anything to circulate the water near the bottom?

The only thing i have is the vents in my filter that drag water if from the bottom and spit it out at the top, but th flow of water is quite strong and at all levels of the tank its moving all the time.

2)I would stop adding boiling water to cold water to heat it up

I have stopped this now and i put in 10L of ice cold water last night but i trickled it into the jetstreem of the filter so it mixed up and the whole tank only dropped 2deg.

On a side note, my KH is 0, GH is 75, PH 6.8

Should KH be 0? i thought it should be around 120?

Post by **Marc van Arc** » 12 Apr 2006, 19:34

Iporangensis Headach wrote: I have stopped this (adding boiling water to cold water to heat it up) now and i put in 10L of ice cold water last night but i trickled it into the jetstreem of the filter so it mixed up and the whole tank only dropped 2deg.

It's wise of you to get rid of the goldfish. What I don't understand, however, is the fact that you're filling a tank with tropical fish with ice cold water. If you want your fish to get well again, I would refrain from tricks like that.

Owch · Post by **Owch** » 12 Apr 2006, 19:34

If you have plants you need some kH because 1, the plants use some carbonate to grow and 2, to stabalise the pH swings caused by having plants in the tank.

Boiling that little water will not be a problem but dripping the water into the tank unheated is a good idea as it saves having to heat it and it has time to mix with the tank water and give the fishes less shock caused by just bunging in 10 lts fresh water.

40% is great if you can keep up the water change regime, but try to do 10% 4 times a week insteatd of 40% in 1 go. Little and often is good.

Owch · Post by **Owch** » 12 Apr 2006, 19:49

In response to Mark, I put 30 to 40 litres of filtered tap water straight into my ~360lt discus tank. This tank is kept at 30*C and the tap water over the winter is as cold as 4*C, I trickle the water into the Juwel filter heater casing at a rate of 1tl/min and the tank temp only ever drops by about 0.5 - 1 *C, the discus dont mind at all and regularly spawn in the community tank, all fish grow very quickly and never have and problems.

Iporangensis Headach - What filter do you use?

Iporangensis Headach · Post by **Iporangensis Headach** » 12 Apr 2006, 22:24

Fluval plus 4 internal but with 4 full size sponges not the standard 2

But i am gunna throw a bio-wheel on there as well,

Also

is the fact that you're filling a tank with tropical fish with ice cold water. If you want your fish to get well again, I would refrain from tricks like that. is the fact that you're filling a tank with tropical fish with ice cold water. If you want your fish to get well again, I would refrain from tricks like that.

I am trickling the water into the tank very slowly into the filter nozzle so it gets mixed up with the tank water very quickly, i kept an eye on the temp and it only dropped 2deg over 30 minutes - surly that cant do any harm? its only 2deg drop and it is slow!

I am gunna do a 10L water change everyday until i am happy the mystery illness is gone! so that would be 6.5% water change every day (6 days = 40% per week)

I am taking the gravel out in 2 weeks and replacing it with white sand - or should i remove it all and boil it? leaving the tank bare for 3 days to clear all the rubbish out.

Owch · Post by **Owch** » 12 Apr 2006, 22:44

Doubling up the sponges will have an effect on the flow but as you are not getting any NH3 or NO2 it seems to be doing a good job, but an external filter would be a good idea, I use a Fluval 304 on my river tank (160lt) and the 4 pre sponges in this do get pretty full of gunk inbetween fiter cleans, but with little effct on the flow. If you can afford a Eheim filter, the 2026 would be ideal for that tank (the 48").

I see your getting a new tank with sump, so the external may not be needed, but still keep it in mind.

As for removing all the gravel, dont do it all at once, as the gravel will contain massive colonys of beneficial bacteria, even if there are some nasties in there. Take out a jug full 2 - 3 times a day and monitor your NH3 and NO2 until all the gravel is removed, maybe reduce feeding while your removing the gravel to reduce the load on the biofilters.

Tom

Rocket · Post by **Rocket** » 13 Apr 2006, 00:58

Well I agree with Marcs statement against using cold water to do changes. Your fish get the heat that keeps them alive from the water they swim in and if this fluctuates rapidly it causes the fish undue stress, which in turn lowers the immune system leaving the fish open to disease. I donâ??t see the problem with heating the water with either boiling water or as I do using hot water out my tap. (I do however have a combination boiler with a direct cold water feed from the mains, meaning no water sitting in a hot water tank.) Fish in the wild are constantly subjected to fluctuating water temperatures but these are so gradual over many hours that they can cope with it.

Another thing you might think about trying is taking water from the bottom of the tank near the gravel and testing that. If the problem is coming from the gravel the water at the gravel might show this.

Gordon

Owch · Post by **Owch** » 13 Apr 2006, 01:34

I do agree that just adding cold water straight to the tank is a bad idea, if adding it all in one go. But to slowly add cold water to the tank is not a problem at all, IF you control it to prevent massive temperature fluctuations, and allow the heater to cope with the cold water.

Tom

Iporangensis Headach · Post by **Iporangensis Headach** » 13 Apr 2006, 02:10

Doubling up the sponges will have an effect on the flow but as you are not getting any NH3 or NO2 it seems to be doing a good job

Yeah they are working bettre but the flow is stronger with 4 sponges??? if i leave the canister empty the flow is very week, so thals good, but what if i filled the filter with Bio-balls instead? or them pipe cleaner things you get for ponds??

I have just cleaned the filter and it was super full of gunk, but i did stir up the grave real bad as i was gravel vacing,

also the Earth Eater has made a nice pile of grave (at least 5" high) behind the L001's cave i made out of lots of Mopani wood (to stop it from colapsing i made the cave part with a 10" glass chess board and put the wood on top and covered the gaps with fake plants

so i am gunna have to dismantle that to get at it.

Also is it safe to put your hands in the tank, as i always do it, all i do is give my hands a rinse first in cold water!

Owch · Post by **Owch** » 13 Apr 2006, 03:35

Id stick with the filter sponges, just make sure that you only rinse them out in tank water, not tap water, when you do a water change. Id rinse 50% of the media at a go (1 or 2 sponges depending on what you have in the filter).

Also give the impeller and its housing a clean, get an ear bud in the impeller housing to remove any gunk off the walls.

Try to get a courser grade of sponge at the bottom of the filter housing to remove particulates, and a finer grade for the top to colonise with bacteria. I dont know if thats possible, but from looking on the fluval website, you can get 2 grades of sponge for the 4+.

As for popping your hands in the tank, thats fine as long as you clean them and remove any soap residues. I hand feed the discus, and catch my plecs by hand (plecs and nets dont mix very well

)

Tom

Post by **Marc van Arc** » 13 Apr 2006, 15:29

Rocket wrote:Well I agree with Marcs statement against using cold water to do changes. Your fish get the heat that keeps them alive from the water they swim in and if this fluctuates rapidly it causes the fish undue stress, which in turn lowers the immune system leaving the fish open to disease.

The whole idea is that IH's fish are already weakened by something and the last thing you want to get on top of that is an extra weakening by adding cold water. Imo a temperature drop of 2 degrees in 30 minutes is quite a lot and I honestly believe your fish can do without that at the moment. If they were all very healthy it's a different matter of course.