Hybrid Syno catfish

Chris · Post by **Chris** » 09 Feb 2005, 00:20

I am fairly new (well completely new) to the keeping of catfish and I seem to have fallen into the standard novice trap of picking up a group of eastern European hybrids.

Now my question is this why do they produce hybrids?

From what I understand the fish are artificially brought into season with hormones and then, if the process is anything like what I am lead to believe happens with other types of fish farming, the eggs are extracted from the female and fertilised with sperm removed from a male fish. If that is how it happens why make a hybrid? Why not just use 2 of the same type of fish?

I have to admit the whole process sound completely unregulated and totally out of control. I could understand the use of hormones and various artificial insemination techniques, after all the process is not all that dissimilar to IVF in humans or artificial insemination in cattle, but the lack of any kind of control really worries me. What happens if these kind of practices are adopted in Africa? There is no telling what might occur if hybrid catfish got into the local fish stocks.

I am considering making a formal complaint to the DTI (I assume that it is illegal to import a fish under a false name and it must be illegal to sell that fish under a false name) and would be very interested to hear what other peopleâ??s views are on this subject.

I am not really to concerned with the fact that hybrids occur (after all my fish are great full of life and not some weak deformed ornamental golf ball with massive puffy eyes) but more that they are being sold under false names (so even now I have no idea how big my fish will get or if the conditions in may tank are suitable). The fact that there seems to be no control in their production is a worry too. What other corners are being cut? Do the people doing this have even the slightest idea what they are doing?

Anyway I will get off my soapbox now, I am sure this subject has been discussed to death on this site but if the overall feeling is that it is a bad thing then I am sure that the DTI would be willing to remove the import licences of those involved and with a lot of these countries now in the EU I am sure the European fisheries commission would be interested to know about the illegal classification of live stock.

Caol_ila · Post by **Caol_ila** » 09 Feb 2005, 00:51

Hey!

Ya its been talked about a lot!
We think its for the money and to feel like gods maybe...but that can only be answered by the "gods" themselves...and gods usually dont speak. ;)
I think i can say that general opinion here is absolutely against any form of manmade hybrids!
Dont know about english laws but in Germany you can bring back the "good" if its sold under a false name. Very tricky to proove it isnt a true species of course...except you buy it as multipunctatus and it has absolutely nothing in common with the real fish.
Again im not sure about England but when you look at german rivers a lot of hybrids are roaming here...most of them brought in from North America and crossed with our species...like trouts for example.
Im not sure a ban would be of any use as youll always find people whod work with the breeders and describe aquarium strains. Synodontis helenae is an example for a described unnatural hybrid i think.
The key to prevent this is buyer information...

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 09 Feb 2005, 09:42

Let me get this clear first: When I first heard about this, I didn't fully understand the subject. Once it was clarified to me, it was also clear that from an ethical perspective, this is not right.

However, from a legal perspective, I doubt that it's illegal to produce fish by hybridization.

Further, to sell that fish as a hybrid would also be legal.

But just like selling Taiwanese Rolex's, it IS clearly illegal to sell a fish under one name, when it really isn't. That's called false labeling or similar, and you should have every legal right to get your money back on such a purchase, and I beleive there wouldn't be any limit on how long it took you to find that out either.

Stopping this isn't going to be easy. Educating the people who buy fish would help a lot.

I'm not sure if all the fish-shops understand this issue, and I think a nice letter to Practical Fishkeeping or such would be a good idea. It's probably easier to educate the fish-shop keepers, simply because there are fewer of those.

You also mention "What if this happens in africa". Well, I'm not aware of it happening in africa (it could well be), but I do know that hybrids are bred for food purposes in South America. The purpose of this hybrid is to achieve quick growth, and I suspect it may be the same with the Syno hybrids from eastern europe. Or maybe some female species produce eggs easier?

--
Mats

Post by **Marc van Arc** » 09 Feb 2005, 10:14

MatsP wrote: The purpose of this hybrid is to achieve quick growth, and I suspect it may be the same with the Syno hybrids from eastern europe.

I'm afraid the only reason for these hybrids is money.
Of course, when there are a 100 natural species, that's not enough so let's invent some more. When you're lucky they will be fancier than any Syno ever seen before and who cares about names. As long as they are sold.
Why is it that always when people try to play God, the outcome is so revolting?? Disabled goldfish, coloured Corys, Parrot C***ds etc. It's not because they like their creatures. Money, alas. And as long as we keep buying, they will go on creating. I'm just waiting for an electric catfish with multicoloured internal flashlights....

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 09 Feb 2005, 10:54

Marc van Arc wrote:I'm afraid the only reason for these hybrids is money.

Yes of course, very good point. And the reason that they mix different catfish in south america is simply that if they grow twice as quick, you get the same amount of money at the market, but after half the time, so more money than growing the natural specie.

Greed is a bad thing, and we all know that.

I was actually trying to make some logic of why they are creating hybrids. Of course, you make another good point: The hybrid may turn out "better looking" than the two parent species.

Either way, it should be stopped, and the best way to stop it would be to get people informed, particularly shop-keepers, as they are the ones that sell them on to the end customer, and if they start saying NO to hybrids, then the end customer will not have any.

--
Mats

Mika · Post by **Mika** » 09 Feb 2005, 11:12

This is difficult subject because it has been done centuries with goldfishes and it is very common thing with livebeareres.Should we ban all those too? Latest achievements has been flowerhorns,"glowfish" and parrot cichlids. Why should catfishes be different?

First issue here with breeders must be money and second is some folks twisted search for curiosities.We know that people share very different taste. To many ordinary hobbyists these hybrids seems attractive. Asia and fareast has very different ornamental fish culture than in western Europe.There people are willing to pay enormous money from oddballs.Unfortunately i donÂ´t think these Syno hybrids will end but increase with time. Breeders don`t give a s***t what we are thinking. Always can be found enough buyers for these fishes.It is a matter of time when we wil see hybrid plecos.

http://www.planetcatfish.com/shanesworld/s_c_180.php

http://www.planetcatfish.com/catelog/lo ... /442_f.php

Chris · Post by **Chris** » 09 Feb 2005, 12:28

I think you guy's are right, it probably isn't illigal to produce a hybrids. What would form the bases of any complaint that I would put to the DTI (department of trade and industry) would be that these fish are being imported and sold illigally under a false name.

What happend to me is that I bought 6 silver and black spotted fish at about 1" as S. multipunctas these have now grown up and are quite clearly hybrids (well quite clearly not S. Multipunctas). With the best will in the world neither me nor my LFS stood chance of identifying the 1" fish as hybrids, however, the breeder who intially created the hybrid must have known the identity of the parents and by selling them to my LFS as S. multipunctas has broken the very strict laws in the UK governing the import and sale of goods in the UK. In fact I wonder if I am entitled to some sort of compensation due to the fact that I may have to buy a bigger tank to house the larger hybrids, mmmmmmmmmmmm... new fish tank, NO, focus, establish leagality first.

From what I am hearing on this web site it sounds like this practice is very wide spred and not an accident at all but a very organised money making racket. I will contact the DTI and find out what the due process is for submitting a complaint. I suspect if a criminal investigation is to be instigated a specific reference to an importer or breeder will be needed so if you have been stung in a similar way to me it might be an idea to ask the fish shop that sold you the fish where they get their fish from. Anyway lets not get a head of our selves I'm off to contact a nice man from the DTI.

Caol_ila · Post by **Caol_ila** » 09 Feb 2005, 12:48

Problems that arise:
- the shopowners get these hybrids in under true species names...so the only thing against that practice would be to stop ordering from that breeder. In big chains this wouldnt be possible without a lot of complaints by buyers.
- its almost impossble to identify rare Synos just by the pic. Im not an expert in any form but i think now i know a lot more about Synos that the common africanfish keeper and ive almost tripped a couple of times bringing home fishes that looked interesting and easily couldve been hybrids. Not really sure how people can be told how to tell a hybrid from a true fish. Mainly by using the internet or publishing articles in magazines i guess.

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 09 Feb 2005, 13:50

Caol_ila wrote:Problems that arise:
- the shopowners get these hybrids in under true species names...so the only thing against that practice would be to stop ordering from that breeder. In big chains this wouldnt be possible without a lot of complaints by buyers.
- its almost impossble to identify rare Synos just by the pic. Im not an expert in any form but i think now i know a lot more about Synos that the common africanfish keeper and ive almost tripped a couple of times bringing home fishes that looked interesting and easily couldve been hybrids. Not really sure how people can be told how to tell a hybrid from a true fish. Mainly by using the internet or publishing articles in magazines i guess.

Bringing this up with the big aquatic magazines would be a starting point. Getting peoples attention for the fact that these things exist is a basis for educating them.

I agree that it's hard to make the shop-keeper solely responsible for the identification/recognition of such species. But simply making them question the breeder/importer/distributor would be a starting point.

If people aren't even aware of the existance of hybrids, then they aren't going to question the "genuinity" of the fish in the shop either, are they?

A typical example of "consumer recognition" is with 'Genetically modified food'. A few years ago, no-one talked about it at all (except for a few people in the fringes of society that also wear tin-foil hats...

, but nowadays every supermarket says "Our own brand products contain no GM products", or some such [at least that's the case here in the UK]. Fish that is hybridized is "Genetically modified", so it's not a big step in logic to get that across to the public.

The big problem is probably that a lot of fish-keepers do not use the internet, and do not read any aquatic magazines. But I still think it can be combatted at least to some extent.

There's obviously no sure way of stopping this, but this (and other such like) discussion is a good start.

In the UK, they've kept a campaign against artificially coloured fish, and I believe it's been relatively successful, but I'm sure there are artificially coloured fish in existance in the shops of this country.

--
Mats

Caol_ila · Post by **Caol_ila** » 09 Feb 2005, 14:02

http://www.planetcatfish.com/shanesworld/s_c_269.php

I "just" found this...*shame on me for not seeing it* it should be made a sticky in the what is my cat forum or here.

P.S.: I have a S.decorus that surely isnt a hybrid and it has a bent dorsal...maybe just malnutrition or an injury? Also almost all my Synos have coppery eyes as i allready posted in another thread.

Chris · Post by **Chris** » 09 Feb 2005, 14:44

Thanks for the info on how to spot a hybrid. I am almost completely sure that my fish are hybrids now (reading through the list of all things hybrid is like reading a description of my fish).

With respect to stopping the production of hybrids I really can't see that happening but I think it would be possible to halt the sale of hybrids under the name of another known species. If you look at the picture below is is very hard to tell if it is a hybrid or not but fairly obvious that it is not S. multipunctas.

I can't believe the breeders in eastern europe can't tell the difference between adult fish. That means they are knowingly making hybrids and selling them under the name of another fish, that's breaking the law.

If you target the breeders, or importers, and not the LFS's then you would only need to prove that they are involved in this sort of thing once and not for every fish for it to stop (it's tough to import live fish without an import licence). Anyway I have sent an e-mail to the relevent section of the DTI and I'll see what they think, after all its not how I interprete the law that counts.

Caol_ila · Post by **Caol_ila** » 09 Feb 2005, 15:00

S. multipunctas

S.multipunctatus ;) just for the record

Post by **Silurus** » 09 Feb 2005, 15:03

Caol_ila wrote:I "just" found this...*shame on me for not seeing it*

Your propensity for accumulating hybrid synos was what motivated me to write that article.

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 09 Feb 2005, 15:08

Chris wrote:I can't believe the breeders in eastern europe can't tell the difference between adult fish. That means they are knowingly making hybrids and selling them under the name of another fish, that's breaking the law.

Sure, they are doing this on purpose, there's no doubt about that. If nothing, else, these hybrids turn up a little bit too often to be an accident.

Chris wrote:If you target the breeders, or importers, and not the LFS's then you would only need to prove that they are involved in this sort of thing once and not for every fish for it to stop (it's tough to import live fish without an import licence). Anyway I have sent an e-mail to the relevent section of the DTI and I'll see what they think, after all its not how I interprete the law that counts.

Let us know.

I sent an e-mail to Matt Clarke at Practical Fish Keeping magazine to say that they should look into the matter. Who knows what happens.

--
Mats

Caol_ila · Post by **Caol_ila** » 09 Feb 2005, 15:41

Your propensity for accumulating hybrid synos

hmmm propensity is a little exaggerated for 2 (the greshoffis) out of 19 Synos...as i see it they are the only two questionable fishes i have...most pics of hybrids i posted were requests from German forums and not my fishes.

Chris · Post by **Chris** » 09 Feb 2005, 23:34

I have been reading the "Guidance Note - The Trade Descriptions Act 1968" (as you do) published by the department of trade and industry in the UK and it makes some very good points. It appears that it is not only illegal to sell a fish under a false name but to give any false information about them.

The Act means that if a trader gives factual information about his goods voluntarily, or makes other statements because he is obliged to by an Order under the Act he must get it right.

To my mind that means that if you ask someone in a fish shop a question about a fish and the information is wrong they have broken the law. So if you are sold a red tailed catfish and told it will only grow to 8" or if you are sold a "breeding" pair of fish that turn out to be 2 females then

(the) Local Trading Standards authorities are under a statutory duty to enforce the provisions of this Act and the Act gives them power of entry, inspection and seizure to help them do it.

but

It is not their job to get you compensation for any disappointment you may have suffered

Which means no free new tank for me

. But

they can investigate and take whatever steps they deem necessary to prevent others being deceived.

I wonder if you are allowed to suggest possible steps you think are necessary to stop the deception of others?

If you feel agrieved and want to do something about it drop your post code into this website and it will give you the contact details of the people you need to talk to.

http://www.tradingstandards.gov.uk/cons ... sumers.cfm

I think it should be noted at the end of this very negative e-mail that this is not an attack on fish shops in general the people who run shops are normally really well informed and have stopped me doing many, many stupid things in the past.

Monty · Post by **Monty** » 10 Feb 2005, 19:17

As an owner of a retail shop I would agree completely that the situation with Czech syno hybrids is really worrying for all of us.

In a recent topic posted on PC someone showed a listing of one of the Czech exporters stocklist of Synos. It is quite a list !!

Certainly it is wrong to produce these fish and also to distribute them, but as a earlier poster said , it is not always possible to be sure when the fish are only about 1 " long.

From our own point of view, we don't buy any Synos from Czechoslovakia at all, purely because of the risk of getting hybrids, but we still buy lots of other fish from them .

It seems that this practice is limited to Synos at the present time, lets hope it doesn't spread to other fish.

We have still managed to end up with hybrids when we buy from very reputable wholesalers in this Country as they too deal with Czech breeders for lots of species and their availability lists dont list the source of their fish.

We generally dont buy small synos at all unless we know the breeder( as in the case of the Dwarf Petricolas ) and this is really the safest way we believe.

I do appreciate the irritation hobbyists feel when they discover that they have bought a hybrid (generally a few months after purchase ) but basically beware of all small synos.

I am aware that S. Eupterus is being sold from Singapore and I believe these are true, but apart from these I dont know of any other sources of commercially bred TRUE SPECIES .

Sorry for the long posting but this problem concerns ALL of us, shops and hobbyists alike.

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Chris · Post by **Chris** » 10 Feb 2005, 23:52

It's nice to see that this is an issue that both retailers and hobbists are concerned about.

I think I am going to talk to my LFS to find out who the suppler was for my catfish and then take that to the trading standard people. I will let people know how I get on.

Mike_Noren · Post by **Mike_Noren** » 17 Feb 2005, 11:33

I'm curious what the czech breeders do with the fish. I'm getting real suspicious that hybridizing and selective breeding isn't all there is to it.

Me, I recently had some hybrid synos which were iridescent neon green (yes, really), and one guy at a site I visit has just posted photos of what looks like a bright yellow (and I mean brightly lemon-yellow) Synodontis courteti. As it's not my photo I can't post a link, but if there's interest I can ask him for permission.

Mika · Post by **Mika** » 17 Feb 2005, 12:34

http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... synodontis

http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... ht=nigrita

Caol_ila · Post by **Caol_ila** » 17 Feb 2005, 16:43

Hi!

I wouldnt buy a xanthoristic or albino Syno but if its just selective breeding theres not much to say against imo.

@mike very unlikely to be a xanthoristic S.courteti looking at the rarity of the fish

Mike_Noren · Post by **Mike_Noren** » 17 Feb 2005, 17:49

I don't know what to make of it. I doubt it's a naturally occurring fish, but on the other hand it doesn't look like a typical czech hybrid either. Anyway, see if this link will work for you: http://www.zpet.se/medlemsbilder/data/5 ... CT0029.JPG

Mika · Post by **Mika** » 18 Feb 2005, 05:50

It looks like F2 generation hybrid.Very beautiful thought.