UPDATE: I was able to pull out my mustard spots for a proper photo shoot today, nearly one year after purchase. If you recall, I purchased 3 fish, a 75mm SL individual tentatively sexed as female, a 70mm SL fish tentatively sexed male, and a 65mm SL fish which was unsexable, but I thought might be female. Today, the middle sized fish is definitely male (as shown in the last post). He was in a cave and refused to come out, even after I hung his cave upside-down in air for 15 minutes or more. What a stubborn fish. But both of the other fish were caught and photographed. Here they are:
Fish #1: Originally 65mm SL, now it is 76mm SL. The body widens slightly in the pelvic area. It has no odontodes on the caudal peduncle. It has no noticeable bulge in its genital papilla (circled in side photo). The opercular odontodes are rather long (also circled in side photo). Given the body shape and lack of caudal odontodes, it might be an immature female. But considering the genital papilla and opercular odontodes, this could also be a subordinate young male. Honestly, today this fish has about the same size and shape as my biggest mustard spot did the day I bought them. So this fish could go either way (female or male):
Fish #2: Originally 70mm SL, current size unknown. The body tapers in the pelvic area. It has strong odontodes on the caudal peduncle. It has no bulge in its genital papilla. The opercular odontodes are rather long. The caudal odontodes are a give-away that this fish is male.
Fish #3: Originally 75mm SL, now it is 80mm SL. The body widens significantly in the pelvic area. It has no odontodes on the caudal peduncle. It has a strong bulge in its genital papilla (circled in side photo). The opercular odontodes are not very long (not visible in photo). This fish is clearly female.
Here's a video comparing each fish from when I bought them one year ago to what they look like today. Pretty amazing as to how much they've fattened out.
Since I moved my three mustard spots to the 75 gal tank, there's been no change in their behavior and no progress towards spawning as far as I can tell. One of the lessons I took from my clown pleco experience is that spawning can be triggered when new individuals are introduced to an preexisting but inactive social group. So today while my LFS was having a buy-one-get-one-free sale, I picked up two more mustard spots. They had only two, so I didn't get to select the sexes.
These fish looked tiny when I bought them, so even with the great price ($15 apiece, once you accounted for the sale), I was hesitant to buy what looked like very immature fish in the tank. For sure their stomachs are thin and they must be hungry, but they also looked very short.
But when I got them in the bag, I noticed that even at this small size, at least one, if not both, fish had very notable pectoral odontodes. Since they appeared so short, I was surprised that I could see any odontodes at all. I did not think they would be sexable at such a small size. By the time I got them home, some of the longest odontodes appeared to have broken off in the bag... I've read that's relatively common, so I think nothing of it. But what it does mean is that when I photographed the fish to sex them, the odontodes no longer look impressive.
To my amazement, the fish are not nearly as small as I thought they were. The larger fish is 63mm SL and the smaller fish is 55mm SL. So in fact, these aren't much smaller in size than my other three were when I first bought them: (65mm - 75mm). Now I'm thinking that the visual "smallness" of the two new mustard spots is due to slightly smaller bodies combined with gaunt abdomens. Hopefully some good feeding will fill them out quickly.
Ironically, it is the smaller fish that has the larger odontodes (by the way, that fish also has some weak caudal peduncle odontodes too). Given that, I know I have one male, and I think the larger one might also be a male, but only time will tell. Of course, I'm hoping they are 1M and 1F, but as I mentioned above, there were only two fish to buy, so I didn't get to choose sexes.
Now they are in quarantine and I treated them prophylactically with PraziPro to deworm them (just in case). Algae wafter, shrimp pellets, raw sweet potato, and of course wood are on the menu initially. After quarantine they will enter the 75 gal tank with the other three mustard spots. Hopefully we'll get a little mustard spotted fish sex going on before too long.
Looking good! Plus in my opinion it never hurts to have a larger group that you could always try to remove a pair from to their own tank to breed if desired. It will be interesting to see pictures of the larger one after a month or so and some more weight put on. I, like you, lean toward it being a female. Keep us posted with efforts/progress!
With these (and P. Albivermis) I feel it's so hard to tell genders. Sure a dominant male is easily spotted, but everything else is really tough unless you have a very gravid female. Please keep up the updates, maybe we will know more in another year
I met a Panaqolus breeder not long ago and he told me how he triggers spawns.
First keep them on very soft water all the time.
Make the females really gravid with lots of frozen foods.
Then stop doing waterchanges for a longer period so that the conductivity of the water rises. Maybe try small water changes with harder water.
He says "keep them on soft water and make the water go harder to trigger spawn" and it's supposed to work with most Panaqolus.
Well, he had some L306 offspring for me so I guess he knows how to spawn them. maybe worth a try for you
Thanks for the advise. I do use most of those tricks already, except keeping them constantly on very soft water. I do mix some distilled water in with my tapwater sometimes, as a feeble way to hint at what your acquaintance suggested, but nothing more soft. So I'll have to give the soft water a better try.
I added another mustard spot about a month ago, but it is young compared to my others.
I was a little surprised myself, because usually people tell me to do a lot of waterchanges with softer water to trigger spawns.
This is like vice versa now, not doing waterchanges or (if at all) with harder water.
I know about stimulating dry seasons like this. But usually I expect them to spawn after these dry seasons, when we stimulate rainy season with cold soft water.
He said with Panaqolus it's kinda other way round, they will spawn during the dry season.
Did both of the other newcomers survice? They looked really thin, especially the bigger one.
With my clown plecos, I've had more spawns after water changes than before, but really there's little correlation. I've had plenty of spawns with old (weeks old, maybe even month or more old) water. I don't know if their advice is literally the "reverse" of other plecos, but it's my impression that (at least with clowns), that the change of water quality and being left alone is as important, or is more important, than the actual water conditions at the moment of spawning.
One of the new mustard spots died in quarantine. Both were thin but healthy on arrival, then both got Ich. I treated that successfully, but I witnessed the two fish fighting with each other a lot in quarantine also. Maybe they were both males, I don't know since they were not very big. But one got a fungal infection and died a couple of days later. The other survived and is doing well in the big tank with the older three of mine.
Damn these fish diseases... all of them are so annoying. I hate it. Let's hope you will see some success with your albomaculatus. I did not read a lot about successfull spawnings of them, yet.
bekateen wrote:
Have you read of ANY successes? I have found none. If I've overlooked a successful report, I'd like to read it.
Thank you,
Eric
You're right. Only P. Albivermis was spawned. I mixed them up, I guess. To be honest, you don't see a lot of them over here in europe at all. People seem prefer other panaqolus. I did not yet see any Albomaculatus anywhere live.
But I think they are pretty closely related to P. Albivermis. There are some P. Albivermis "spotted" that look much like a mix of both of them.
Would love to read the first successfull spawnreport from you, Erik
Jobro wrote:But I think they are pretty closely related to P. Albivermis. There are some P. Albivermis "spotted" that look much like a mix of both of them.
Would love to read the first successfull spawnreport from you, Erik
I agree, the two species are very similar. As for your second point, I agree also - I'd love to write that first spawning report!
It's been a long time since I've had anything to add, but today may be the day. I woke up this morning to find my male mustard spot trapping a female - first time ever for my mustard spots. Hopefully they can pull this off and I come home from work to find dad fanning a big pile of eggs. But even if I don't find eggs, I know we're getting close!
But it is a damn good first sign of you succeeding to spawn these! My albivermis do this a lot, trapping without results (for years). Keep at it, don't change to much, if anything. Keep doing what you are doing now, it will work
I think what tipped the scale and got the female in the cave is that last weekend at Catfish-Cataclysm I bought an extended-length cave, I estimate ~10" long instead of ~6" long.
Prior to this weekend, I've been noticing for a while that the male liked a particular cave (same diameter) but it was short, so there was no room for both male and female inside at same time; the female was always loitering nearby but I never saw her try to enter.
So I thought I needed a longer cave, and I found it at Catfish-Cataclysm (made by plecocaves.com). I bought this long cave, and added it to the tank Monday night; the male entered it within just a few hours. Four days later (today), I awake to find her in the cave this morning.
If that was the missing ingredient to successful spawn, then I think things will move quickly from here on.
I think what tipped the scale and got the female in the cave is that last weekend at Catfish-Cataclysm I bought an extended-length cave, I estimate ~10" long instead of ~6" long.
Long cave.jpg
Prior to this weekend, I've been noticing for a while that the male liked a particular cave (same diameter) but it was short, so there was no room for both male and female inside at same time; the female was always loitering nearby but I never saw her try to enter.
So I thought I needed a longer cave, and I found it at Catfish-Cataclysm (made by plecocaves.com). I bought this long cave, and added it to the tank Monday night; the male entered it within just a few hours. Four days later (today), I awake to find her in the cave this morning.
If that was the missing ingredient to successful spawn, then I think things will move quickly from here on.
Cheers, Eric
My P. albivermis breed in long caves ;) So this could be the trick with these two species yes
Jobro wrote: ↑02 Oct 2017, 15:16
Eric, any reason you are trying with clay caves instead of bamboo caves?
Ha! Johannes, you give me far too much credit.
I can try all I want to steer my plecos to one kind of cave or another, but as the old saying (e.g., here) goes, "The heart wants what it wants." As much as this is true for human romance, the same is true for pleco cave preference.
This tank has caves of many shapes, sizes and materials: clay (several types and colors), bamboo, drilled oak blocks, and drilled privet branches. I have round caves, square caves, D-caves, and rectangular caves. I have caves with tapering ends, blunt ends, and rounded ends.
The new long cave was placed in the same location as the old short cave.
The caves range in outer diameter (OD) from 1" to 2.5", with inner diameters (ID) being about 1/4" - 1/2" less than OD in all caves (depending on thickness of cave walls). (purchased caves are sold by OD, not ID, so I'm reporting OD)
The mustard spots happen to like caves with an ID of about 1"-1.25," which means OD around 1.5." The females I have often avoid caves all together, but sometimes enter wood, clay or bamboo caves. But the male has, for some time now, been staking his claim to a 1.5" OD "red" color clay cave from plecocaves.com (this link, the red color). These caves are about 6-7" long and have tapering ends.
I bought the new cave from the same source; it is light "brown" color, same tapering end, and same diameter (1.5" OD) but extended length (I estimate ~10"). It's the cave on the right in the photo below:
The male took to this cave almost instantly and he had a girl in there within 4 days. But there's been no more spawning action since last week; I did a big water change yesterday and hopefully that triggers her to return and lay eggs.
I bought only one long cave for me, and another for a friend because that's all I saw at Cataclysm. I should probably get more.
They're at it again, maybe this time is the charm?
First trapping on 29 September, 2017. Second trapping 24 October 2017. There was a third incident sometime after that. None resulted in spawns. Yesterday, 17 March 2018, I caught them trapping again, and this morning I awoke to watch this action. Hopefully they lay a bunch of wonderful and fertile eggs!
You are certainly on the right track! My P. albivermis trap so many times without eggs I lost count. So for me perfectly common behavior. Keep at it, don't change anything! You're doing great!!!
