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Giving vitamin B1 shots to 4 sick catfish. Dramatic recovery. Summary. Thiaminase is likely killer.

So sorry to see you lost the big Piraiba, my condolences. But what a gain in knowledge. I've never liked feeding salt water organisms to freshwater organisms as they would, for the most part, never encounter that biology in their natural environment. But I've never had scientific proof to support this hypothesis. My question would be: if you fed just freshwater bait fish, would you have the same problem with the Thiaminase?

Thank you. The top tier fish veterinarians I've consulted with, Dr. Susan Fogelson, Dr. & Prof. Ruth Francis-Floyd, and Dr. & Prof. Robert Oz Ossiboff said the topic of feeding s/w fish to f/w predators hasn't received much attention and so far the science hasn't identified any ill effects, perhaps for the lack of looking, or because there aren't many or obvious ones...? IDK.

The general logic that you speak of seems to be the basis for some statements in Zoo and Aquaria Manuals warning against potentially adverse effects of feeding s/w fish to animals that feed on f/w fish in the wild. They can't make a strong or definitive statement to this effect for the lack of scientific support.

As for your question: roughly half of the s/w fish studied for the presence of thiaminase and half of the f/w fish contain it. So from the thiaminase point of view alone, one has the same crude odds with fish of either origin.

Here are the relevant lists of fish and other aquatic feeds that I compiled in a writeup (for self but happy to share) from about a dozen sources:

Freshwater fish containing Thiaminase

There are really only three groups of foods dangerously rich in thiaminase: mussels (popular, cheap & available), crustaceans (the widely used prawns & shrimps), & cyprinids (carp, goldfish, minnows, danios, etc.). Among the human food fish families, species containing T. include carps, minnows, herrings, anchovies, goatfishes & snappers.

Family Cyprinidae (Minnows or carps):
All Cyprinidae - carp Cyprinus carpio, rudd, roach, goldfish Carassius auratus, tench, minnow etc
Common bream (Abramis brama) (not the U.S. fish)
Central stoneroller (Campostoma anomalum or Campostoma anomalum pullum)
Emerald shiner (Notropis atherinoides)
Spottail shiner (Notropis hudsonius)
Buckeye Shiner – Notropis atherinoides
Rosy red, Fathead minnow (Pimephales promelas)
Olive barb (Puntius sarana)
Family Salmonidae (Salmonids):
Lake whitefish (Coregonus clupeaformis)
Round whitefish (Prosopium cylindraceum or c. quadriaterale)
Family Catostomidae (Suckers):
Common white sucker (Catostomus commersonii)
Bigmouth buffalo, Buffalofish (Ictiobus cyprinellus)
Family Ictaluridae (North American freshwater catfishes):
Brown bullhead catfish (Ameiurus nebulosus)
Bullhead catfish – Ameiurus spp
Channel catfish (Ictalurus punctatus)
Other families:
Bowfin (Amia calva) - family Amiidae (Bowfins)
Burbot (Lota lota) - family Lotidae (Hakes & burbots)
Burbot (Lota Lota maculosa)
White bass (Morone chrysops) - family Moronidae (Temperate basses)
Smelt Osmerus spp, Rainbow smelt (f/w smelt Osmerus mordax) - family Osmeridae (Smelts)
Loach, Weatherfish (Misgurnus sp.) - family Cobitidae (Loaches)
Garfish (Garpike)

Brackish fish containing Thiaminase

Family Clupeidae (Herrings):
Alewife (Alosa pseudoharengus), lives in f/w too
American Gizzard Shad (Dorosoma cepedianum)
Other families:
Sea lamprey (Petromyzon marinus) - family Petromyzontidae (Lampreys)
Fourhorn Sculpin (Triglopsis quadricornis or q. thompsonii) - family Cottidae (Sculpins)
Salmon (sp. indet., processed & salted, probably Oncorhynchus sp.) - family Salmonidae (Salmonids)

Marine fish containing Thiaminase

Family Engraulidae (Anchovies):
Broad-striped anchovy (Anchoa hepsetus)
Californian anchovy (Engraulis mordax)
Goldspotted grenadier anchovy (Coilia dussumieri)
Family Clupeidae (Herrings):
Atlantic herring (Clupea harrengus)
Baltic herring Clupea harrengus var. membranus
Atlantic menhaden aka ogy, Shad, Bunker, Mossbunker, Fatback, Razor Belly, Alewife, LY (Brevoortia tyrannus)
Gulf or large-scale menhaden (Brevoortia patronus)
Razor belly or scaled sardine (Harengula jaguana = pilchard, white bait, horse minnow) (H. pensacolae)
Sauger (Harengula jaguana) (Stizostedion c. canadense)
Family Scombridae (Mackerels, tunas, bonitos):
Chub mackerel Pacific mackerel Northern mackerel (Scomber japonicus)
Skipjack tuna (Katsuwonus pelamis)
Yellowfin tuna (Neothunnus macropterus)
Family Lutjanidae (Snappers):
Green jobfish (Aprion virescens)
Ruby snapper (Etelis carbunculus)
Crimson jobfish (Pristipomoides filamentosus)
Family Carangidae (Jacks):
Giant trevally (Caranx ignobilis)
Doublespotted queenfish (Scomberoides lysan)
Bigeye scad (Selar crumenophthalmus)
Family Mullidae (Goatfishes):
Red Sea goatfish (Mulloidichthys auriflamma)
Yellowstripe goatfish (Mulloidichthys samoensis)
Manybar goatfish (Parupeneus multifasciatus)
Other families:
American butterfish (Peprilus triacanthus) - family Stromateidae (Butterfishes)
Southern ocellated moray (Gymnothorax ocellatus) - family Muraenidae (Moray eels)
Bonefish (Albula vulpes) - family Albulidae (Bonefishes)
Milkfish (Chanos chanos) - family Chanidae (Milkfish)
Common dolphinfish (Coryphaena hippurus) - family Coryphaenidae (Dolphinfishes)
Hawaiian flagtail (Kuhlia sandvicensis) - family Kuhliidae (Aholeholes)
Black cod (sp. indet.) - family Moridae (Morid cods)
Flathead grey mullet aka striped (US, American Fisheries Society name), black, bully, common, grey, sea mullet, & just mullet (Mugil cephalus) - family Mugilidae (Mullets) Ref. 2
Sixfinger threadfin (Polydactylus sexfilis) - family Polynemidae (Threadfins)
Regal parrot (Scarus dubius) - family Scaridae (Parrotfishes)
Swordfish (Xiphias gladius) - family Xiphiidae (Swordfish)
Dogfish, Spurdog sharks Squalus spp
Whiting Gadus merlangus possibly, ref.5

Invertebrates containing Thiaminase

Bivalves: Bivalves such as clams can be a good food within a varied diet, but many contain a lot of Thiaminase & should not be used exclusively; some however, notably cockles, contain little Thiaminase & are consequently a better all-around food for mollusk-feeding predators such as pufferfish.
Ocean quahog or Black quahog (Artica islandica)
Clam (Tellina spp.) but not oysters
Cherrystone, Chowder, Steamer clams (family Veneridae)
Pigtoe or bigtoe mussel (Pleurobema cordatum)
Scallop (Pecten grandis)
Hawaiian clam (sp. indet.; extremely high in thiaminase)
Blue mussel (Mytilus galloprovincialis)

Gastropods containing Thiaminase

Limpet (Helcioniscus sp.)

Cephalopods containing Thiaminase

Hawaiian flying squid (Nototodarus hawaiiensis)

Crustaceans containing Thiaminase

Prawn, Tiger shrimp (Penaeus spp.)
Shrimp Penaeus setiferus
Lobster ref.11

Freshwater Fish not containing Thiaminase

Cockles, tilapia, pollock, cod, haddock, the smelt sold as lancefish (couldn’t find what species this is). In general, N.A. sunfishes, flounders, cods & croakers are T.-free. Terrestrial foods in general, e.g. earthworms, bloodworms & crickets.

Family Centrarchidae (North American Sunfishes):
Largemouth bass (Micropterus salmoides)
Northern smallmouth bass (Micropterus dolomieu)
Northern rock bass (Ambloplites rupestris) aka rock perch, goggle-eye, red eye, & black perch, native to east-central North America. Has red eyes. Can be distinguished by the 6 spines in the anal fin vs 3 for other sunfish.
Blue gill (Lepomis macrochirus)
Pumpkinseed (Lepomis gibbosus)
Black crappie (Pomoxis nigromaculatus)
Family Percidae (Perches):
Yellow perch (Perca flavescens)
Perch Perca fluviatilis
Walleye or wall-eyed pike (Sander vitreus)
Family Salmonidae (Salmonids):
Chub or Bloater (Coregonus hoyi)
Lake trout (Salvelinus namaycush)
Rainbow trout (Oncorhynchus mykiss)
Rainbow Trout Salmo gairdnerii irideus
Brown Trout Salmo trutta fario
Most Salmonidae (trout, salmon, char etc.)
Other families:
Ayu sweetfish, a species of smelt (Plecoglossus altivelis) - family Plecoglossidae (Ayu fish)
Northern Longnose Gar (Lepisosteus osseus oxyurus) - family Lepisosteidae (Gars)
Northern Pike (Esox lucius) - family Esocidae (Pikes)
Tilapia various species

Brackish fish not containing Thiaminase

Family Salmonidae (Salmonids):
Cisco Lake herring (Coregonus artedi or a. areturus), Lake Superior
Atlantic Salmon (Salmo salar)
Coho salmon (Oncorhynchus kisutch)
Sea trout (Salmo trutta)
Other families:
Common eel (Anguilla anguilla) - family Anguillidae (True eels)
American eel aka Atlantic, black, Boston, bronze, common, freshwater eel - Anguilla rostrata
Pond smelt (Hypomesus olidus) - family Osmeridae (Smelts), f/w too

Marine fish not containing Thiaminase

Family Pleuronectidae (Righteye flounders):
Winter flounder, Black back, Lemon sole (Pseudopleuronectes americanus or a. dignabilis)
European plaice (Pleuronectes platessa)
American or Canadian plaice (Hippoglossoides platessoides)
Atlantic halibut (Hippoglossus hippoglossus)
Yellowtail flounder (Limanda ferruginea)
Family Gadidae (Cods & haddocks)
Atlantic cod (Gadus morhua)
Haddock (Melanogrammus aeglefinus or Gadus aeglefinus)
Saithe, Pollock (Pollachius virens & other spp.) P. virens & P. pollachius are called pollock (US) or Boston blue (not bluefish), coalfish/coley, podley & saithe (UK)
Family Sciaenidae (Drums or croakers):
Atlantic croaker (Micropogonias undulatus)
Southern kingfish, king whiting, ground mullet (Menticirrhus americanus)
Spot, Spot croaker (Leiostomus xanthurus)
Silver seatrout or white trout (Cynoscion nothus)
Sand weakfish or white trout too (Cynoscion avenarius)
Family Carangidae (Jacks):
Greater amberjack (Seriola dumerilii)
Yellowtail scad aka northern yellowtail scad, one-finlet scad, deep trevally & omaka (Atule mate)
Mackerel scad or Speedo (Decapterus pinnulatus = Decapterus macarellus)
Family Labridae (Wrasses):
Cunner (Tautogolabrus adspersus)
Tautog or blackfish (Tautoga onitis)
Family Scombridae (Mackerels, tunas, bonitos):
Atlantic mackerel aka Boston, Northern, Norwegian, Scottish mackerel or just mackerel (Scomber scombrus) (ref. 5 lists this fish as possibly containing thiaminase)
Kawakawa (Euthynnus affinis)
Other families:
European Bass Dicentrarchus or Morone labrax
Sole Solea solea
European Sprat (Sprattus sprattus), aka bristling, brisling, garvie, garvock, Russian sardine, russlet, skipper or whitebait
Cusk or tusk (Brosme brosme) - family Lotidae (Hakes & burbots)
Largehead hairtail, aka beltfish, ribbon fish, silver eel (Trichiurus lepturus) - family Trichiuridae (Cutlassfishes)
Piked dogfish (Squalus acanthias) - family Squalidae (Dogfish sharks)
Hake (Urophycis sp. of Pacific, Urophycis sp. of G. of Mexico) - family Phycidae (Phycid hakes)
Inshore lizardfish (Synodus foetens) - family Synodontidae (Lizardfishes)
Mullet Gulf of Mexico (Mugil spp.) - family Mugilidae (Mullets) except Flathead mullet (Mugil cephalus) see above
Scup, Porgy, Southern porgy (Stenotomus chrysops, S. aculeatus) - family Sparidae (Porgies)
Ocean perch, Redfish (Sebastes marinus) - family Sebastidae (Rockfishes)
Black seabass (Centropristis striata) - family Serranidae (Sea basses & Groupers)
Hardhead sea catfish (Ariopsis felis) - family Ariidae (Sea catfishes)
Sea robin (Prionotus spp.) - family Triglidae (Sea robins)
Silver hake or Whiting (Merluccius bilinearis) - family Merlucciidae (Merluccid hakes)
Hake Merluccius merluccius
Eyestripe surgeonfish (Acanthurus dussumieri) - family Acanthuridae (Surgeonfishes)
Atlantic blue marlin (Makaira nigricans) - family Istiophoridae (Billfishes)
Blotcheye soldierfish (Myripristis berndti) - family Holocentridae (Squirrelfishes, soldierfishes)
Glasseye (Heteropriacanthus cruentatus) - family Priacanthidae (Bigeyes or catalufas)
Great barracuda (Sphyraena barracuda) - family Sphyraenidae (Barracudas)
Skate Raja spp

Invertebrates not containing Thiaminase

Bivalves:
Cockle (Cardium spp.) (cockles contain little Thiaminase, per section “Invertebrates containing T.”)
Oysters

Crustaceans not containing Thiaminase

Marine shrimps (sp. indet.; Hawaii) – the only exception?
Portuguese crabs (sp. indet.)

Cephalopods not containing Thiaminase

Squid, Brief squid, calmar (Lolliguncula brevis)

Ref. 2: Guppies, mollies as feeder fish:

Little or nothing is known about the thiaminase content of some of the small ornamental fishes usually used as feeders. However, goldfish & minnows (including rosy red minnows) definitely contain thiaminase & consequently make very poor choices as feeders. On the other hand, the Poeciliidae (e.g., guppies, mollies, mosquitofish) are often recommended as safe feeder fishes for predators because of their presumed to be low thiaminase content.
Despite claims among aquarists that guppies contain thiaminase producing bacteria, I am not aware of any scientific study demonstrating this to be the case. Since poecilids are grazers, an uptake of thiaminase-producing cyanobacteria would be possible, though less probable in a freshwater aquarium where a much smaller variety of algae are likely to be present than in the wild.
Anecdotal evidence that the notoriously delicate Ribbon Eel can live on a diet of mostly gut loaded black mollies for more than 15 years would seem to suggest that poeciliids are largely thiaminase-free & make a safe choice for feeder fish. Of course, this depends on the quality of the feeder fish being used, & cheap feeder guppies from pet stores might not contain any thiaminase but could certainly contain all sorts of pathogenic bacteria & parasites! So when poeciliids are described as being among the best feeder fish, this depends on them being bred at home & gut loaded with Vitamin B1-enriched foods, such as a good quality flake food. Because poeciliids have a high tolerance for saltwater (mollies in particular can be maintained indefinitely under marine conditions) they are equally useful in saltwater tanks as in freshwater aquaria. The thiaminase content of guppies is unknown, but considered low or negligible, making them much safer to use than goldfish or minnow feeders.

Great info on the Thiaminase Viktor. Thanks much.

Regarding your latest post: maybe you can cut it into smaller pieces and see what happens, or try some large earthworms to just get them some much needed minerals?

Thank you for the sound suggestions as always, Naturalart.

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No problem Viktor. Really appreciate you posting this amazing build and your journey through it.

Any thoughts on the use of nutritional yeast (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nutritional_yeast) as a B vitamin supplement for those of us with smaller fish?

This is the first time I hear of this particular form of yeast supplement, so I'm of no use, sorry. I used to consume Brewer's yeast as a supplement for many years and can probably sum up that I saw no ill effects from that. Can't profess I saw definable positives because a clean experiment with a reference could not be run - me eating yeast long term vs me not eating yeast. When it comes to fish, I'd be even less relevant, I am afraid.

Success! 19 days ago Thug the TSNxRTC was halfdead, got vitamin B1 shot, today ate 2 mullet 1st time.

From what I could see it looked like the smaller Paroon got that 3rd piece.

Thank you! Yes! I missed it when I had been filming but I saw it too when I watched it. Didn't bother editing the video but indicated it in the title. I was relieved. Didn't want to dive into the 15K fish latrine to look for it The drain used to have a DIY 4" PVC tee screen screwed into the top of the bulkhead but these behemoths keep breaking them, so now it is a loose screen with a 4" opening on the top and doesn't stop food from getting washed down.

Much appreciate your interest to our humble effort.

Just wanted to say it's always interesting seeing your videos!